Dundee 17/2/18

[Winter of '63]

6 minutes ago, potty trained said:

 

. At one point Muzy had the right wing to himself, motions to run into space and as Woods pings the ball out wide he looks up to see Muzy has thought, na fck it, I'll just hang back. The resulting ball flying out of play.

 

I  think this might have been when Woods hit a raking crossfield pass to an unmarked Thistle player in yards of space - unfortunately it was Kris Doolan who was on the touchline waiting to come on as substitute.

I don't have any issue  with or interest in Osman's clothing sideline but  for someone with such a muscular physique ,  I'm more concerned about the time he took to get up from a knock  which left a gap in the lead up to their goal.

There is some legitimate criticism to be made of Archie's management, particularly fitness/stamina and the repeated loss of late points and goals.  However, I don't have much time for Posters who seem to take a gleeful delight in calling for the manager's head without any further insight...but maybe that's because they don't actually seem to go to any games.

[kennymac29]

Cernys time wasting (or game management as some might call it) is so frustrating. I can see why Dundee got so pissed off about it and how he wasn't booked I don't know.  It came back to bite us in the ass anyway.

Can someone also show woods how to take a bloody corner. When spittal came on I was hoping he would take over but alas no, woods continued to fail to beat the first man time and time again.

I think we got what we deserved with the usual hold on to the one goal lead mentality instead of pushing for a second. We are in deep trouble and like others above I don't think we have the metal for the fight. 

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by kennymac29

[Duke Gekantawa]

I’ve not bothered to read this thread. I suspect the normal management blaming (though the team picked and subs chosen seemed good). However , I’v not been as angry at a Thistle player as I was at Osman for their first goal. I genuinely thought we were seeing the game out ok, then Osaman fails to win a free kick. instead of getting up and getting on with it- he lay down and took a breather. During that time the ball was cleared to about where he would have had he got off his ******* arse and not whinged. Sadly, he stayed on his arse and the rest is history 

[potty trained]

16 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

I’ve not bothered to read this thread. I suspect the normal management blaming (though the team picked and subs chosen seemed good). However , I’v not been as angry at a Thistle player as I was at Osman for their first goal. I genuinely thought we were seeing the game out ok, then Osaman fails to win a free kick. instead of getting up and getting on with it- he lay down and took a breather. During that time the ball was cleared to about where he would have had he got off his ******* arse and not whinged. Sadly, he stayed on his arse and the rest is history 

Sammon gave him a roasting for it. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by potty trained

[Auld Jag]

Imo when we scored we played as if we were looking to win the game 1-0.We didn't really press for what I would think would've been a killer 2nd goal apart from Erskine's effort I don't remember much of note from us in an attacking way in the second half.On the other hand when Dundee equalised they continued to press for the  winner.

[Legs Like A Spider]

The problem wasn't the second half it was the first. A very good thistle side failed to bury a very poor Dundee side. This is the story of the past couple of seasons,,,,,,how often do you see a thistle side put sustained pressure on other teams. Very very rarely.

We played at a really frustrating slow pace and I don't know whats happened to Muzzy just wanted to pass the ball back even when he was in great attacking positions. We seemed happy to control the half way line and play possession football there.  Even when we realised Storey had the beating of their full back we didn't do anything with it. Need to learn how to play the ball quickly on the ground that will trouble defenders instead of allowing defences to regroup.  Their keeper was not really tested today for all our possession whereas Cerny had several good saves.  As often said on here there is a question over fitness and we also badly need a forwards coach.

The substitutions were odd. If you are going to try to protect a lead you do not put on Doolan and Spittal you put on players like McCarthy,,,,where was he??

I fear that the loss of the three points today could prove very costly

[Jaggernaut]

12 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

Imo Archie will not be sacked even if we go down and although I have not always held this view I do think he deserves the chance to bring us back up.If we had a bad start to next season and we had been relegated then he would deserve to be sacked.I also think we would have a completely different squad as a lot of them woudnt want to play in the championship.

Maybe a lot of them think they are better than they actually are.

[eljaggo]

Having calmed down after watching that second half, I still cannot fathom out why we were so poor after such a dominant first half -  albeit with only 1 goal to show for it.  Certainly Dundee upped the pace of their game right from the restart, and we seemed always to be on the back foot, and as others have pointed out there is serious concern for our level of fitness.  But even early in the second half there was a nervousness that meant passes were tentative and made too slowly, and no one put their foot on the ball in an attempt to control things.  Leadership was completely absent, and the club needs a dominant character on the park as captain to kick arses hard and repeatedly - I nominate Sammon. 

The substitutions were late as usual - what is the point of waiting until Erskine is totally and completely knackered before bringing on Spittal, and how can Doolan make any impression in about 10 minutes playing time. 

When I heard the team selection I thought that this was probably the stongest side we have put out this season, and at half time I was confident of a win.  This makes the defeat all the more difficult to thole since we cannot now blame absences due to injury.   For Archibald to say on Jagzone that we played well for 84 minutes is worryingly delusional, and a convincing explanation by him of why we played so poorly in the second half would have given fans at least some reassurance that he realises the problem and hopefully has ways of sorting it.

Edited February 18, 2018 by eljaggo

[watties wallies]

re teams fitness    dundee had a midweek game against killie

 

[Lenziejag]

9 hours ago, potty trained said:

 At one point Muzy had the right wing to himself, motions to run into space and as Woods pings the ball out wide he looks up to see Muzy has thought, na fck it, I'll just hang back. The resulting ball flying out of play

Was that just as Doolan was waiting to come on? I thought he was aiming for him

[King Kenny]

It says a lot about this team that once Dundee equalised, you knew what was coming. I’m pretty numb to it now it happens so often. 

First half yesterday we played well, it’s the best possession football I’ve seen from us in a while. We just lacked that final cutting edge (as ever) mostly down to Dumbuya doing nothing with the freedom of Firhill he was given. 

Storey slightly guilty as well, needs to lift his head more but had a good battle with Kerr. Taking him off was the wrong move, it allowed Kerr to start getting forward which in turn freed up other Dundee players. 

Woods was excellent on the whole but spent the last 10mins of the first half limping, amazed he was kept on for the whole game. 

Osman in my opinion was culpable for both goals. The first especially, I couldn’t believe he didn’t get that ball away, Sammon rightly hammered him for it. 

On field and off field game management is costing us big time at the minute. 

As others have said, it’s the same old mistakes we’re making that are killing us. 

2 huge games coming up. I’d like to see Stevie Lawless back in the starting lineup, his tenacity and will to win is certainly missing from a lot of his team mates at the minute. 

Not sure how Sammon got Motm, goal aside I thought that was one of the big mans poorer performances over the last month or so. 

[BowenBoys]

We had a lot of time on the ball in the first half but our play is laborious. It's all very well switching play and carrying the ball up the wing but it's all so ponderous. Dundee always had plenty of time to regroup as we were so indecisive going forward.

In the second half they came at us because, as usual, we let them. They attacked us in our penalty area. The goals were inevitable.

I am beginning to worry that there is a negative mindset at the club. We seem to start each game thinking that, at 0 - 0, we have a point to defend. If we go into the lead we have three points to defend.  If so, that's not the players fault. It comes from above.

[Sinistar]

Took my English mate to the game yesterday; it was his first time at a  Scottish Football / first Jags match.

At the end, I told him (sadly) that he'd just witnessed a typical Thistle game, sigh.

On the up side, it was a great moment when we scored (we were right in front of the goals) and he was constantly grinning at some of the banter in the Northy :-)

I'm not one for critiquing individual players, but as good as it was seeing Muzzy getting up to speed again, I wish he'd take a shot at goal. A few other players too for that matter. Outwith the Fish & Doolan, only Lawless &  to some degree Edwards, have a pop at goal.

 

[falklandal1]

1 hour ago, BowenBoys said:

We had a lot of time on the ball in the first half but our play is laborious. It's all very well switching play and carrying the ball up the wing but it's all so ponderous. Dundee always had plenty of time to regroup as we were so indecisive going forward.

In the second half they came at us because, as usual, we let them. They attacked us in our penalty area. The goals were inevitable.

I am beginning to worry that there is a negative mindset at the club. We seem to start each game thinking that, at 0 - 0, we have a point to defend. If we go into the lead we have three points to defend.  If so, that's not the players fault. It comes from above.

Same old Same old,AAs ability to make positive changes to our game plan when the opposition  changes theirs is a worry,doesnt seem able or willing to adjust,like for like substituitions don't work I'm afraid.Better crowd yesterday,how many will be back?,

 

[potty trained]

1 hour ago, King Kenny said:

It says a lot about this team that once Dundee equalised, you knew what was coming. I’m pretty numb to it now it happens so often. 

How many league games have we lost from winning positions, this season?

[Barney Rubble]

1 minute ago, potty trained said:

How many league games have we lost from winning positions, this season?

Hibs, Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee.

Also drawn after leading v Dross, Sevco, Hearts, Motherwell

[lady-isobel-barnett]

15 hours ago, stillresigned said:

Things suddenly look desperate again? Got wha we deserved for  a totally gutless and rudderless second half? After an excellent first half when predictably we didn't convert our superiority into goals. Essentially, everything that we done right in the first half we did wrong in the second!

You cold moan about Archie's tactical approach, but I expect professional football players not to defend like schoolboys and I don't see how you can blame Archie for the players continual inability to defend properly.  To be quite honest that level of defending must make Simon Murray wish that he played Thistle every week.

 I'll wait to calm down a bit before I post anything else.

Almost nothing there to disagree with. Every time we lose late goals the defence get slated (usually correctly and yesterday was no exception) but on these occasions we nearly always overlook inadequacies at the other end of the pitch. Only scoring one goal at home against one of the poorer sides in the league equates roughly to scoring no goals at home against most of the stronger sides. That of course is nowhere good enough.  So the only difference I see to above post, and I'm splitting hairs, is that the first half wasn't "excellent" as we should really have gone in at half time more than a single goal up. 

Regarding a post elsewhere I'm not so sure that bringing  a more defensive player on instead of Doolan would've helped. We already were defending too deep as it was and balls up to Kris, with his first touch, should've helped. That I assume was part of the reason he didn't start. I mind a midweek draw up at Pittodrie when we went to two up (Dools & Aziz) to protect the point and avoid going too deep. Defending too deep is nearly always a collective thing and no one player more guilty than the next. Yesterday tho' it did look like Abdul kinda slowed up maybe in the last 15 mins or so.

If Archie has to be criticised then I feel it should centre around starting Storey. That's not so much as to say the lad doesn't warrant a start but more about the impact he could've made coming on as a sub, particularly if Dundee were chasing the game. Spittal (or Doolan for that matter) doesn't bring any energy into the side. It was more or less like for like energy wise replacing Erskine with Blair a move hardly designed to catch Dundee defenders off guard. Starting Spittal or Lawless if fully fit and holding back Storey might have been preferable.

 

 

[Auld Jag]

Just now, potty trained said:

How many league games have we lost from winning positions, this season?

Before the Motherwell game there was an article that said ourselves and Hamilton had lost17 points from winning positions,since then we have dropped another 5 points from a winning position.Just think where we would be if we even held onto to say half of those leads.

[angry gaz]

Felt as deflated after that as  iv'e felt all season. A very avoidable defeat and very poor game management from manager and players. A couple of old failing came back again ,the standard of our crossing ,on the whole is grim .Some of our corners are embarrassing. We continually crossed the ball from far too far out   as well. That wasn't helped by Muzzy being unable to get past his man the whole game. We need to go through the middle more , we are an easy team to defend against when we play like this and despite some good passing and build up play  in the first half the final ball and cutting edge were rarely there. I thought some previoous comments about of fitness were exaggerated but I think now that there is a general stamina  problem in the team. Many of our wins have been when we've went ahead and then sat back and held on for grim death with less possession than the opposition and I think this may be a reflection of running out of steam late on too.  If Archie can keep us up this season it will be a big achievement.

[Fearchar]

16 minutes ago, angry gaz said:

Felt as deflated after that as  iv'e felt all season. A very avoidable defeat and very poor game management from manager and players. A couple of old failing came back again ,the standard of our crossing ,on the whole is grim .Some of our corners are embarrassing. We continually crossed the ball from far too far out   as well. That wasn't helped by Muzzy being unable to get past his man the whole game. We need to go through the middle more , we are an easy team to defend against when we play like this and despite some good passing and build up play  in the first half the final ball and cutting edge were rarely there. I thought some previoous comments about of fitness were exaggerated but I think now that there is a general stamina  problem in the team. Many of our wins have been when we've went ahead and then sat back and held on for grim death with less possession than the opposition and I think this may be a reflection of running out of steam late on too.  If Archie can keep us up this season it will be a big achievement.

When the team attacks through the middle, it results in either a threat to the opposition goal or a foul (in which case, Spittal is the ideal foil for it). In hindsight, the kick-off should have been a warning to us not to be optimistic: except for the fact that the ball was punted over the line on the right wing, it reminded me of the days of punts up the left wing for Kevin McKinlay to chase after. Giving away possession from the kick-off should really not be tolerated.

[MonehJags]

14 hours ago, potty trained said:

The preverbial game of two halves. We had free reign in the first half and could have been further ahead at half time if Muzy put in some more crosses, instead of passing on responsibility.

Our forward players all had a great first half. Edwards and Storey especially. 

The second half as our midfield tired, at the same time, our defence became a cluster****, hell bent on putting the tired players in front of them into more trouble. Muzy and Booth continually gave the ball away, booth repeatedly playing balls inside to no one. At one point Muzy had the right wing to himself, motions to run into space and as Woods pings the ball out wide he looks up to see Muzy has thought, na fck it, I'll just hang back. The resulting ball flying out of play.

Whilst we stretched them wide open playing the ball across the back in the first half, we did none of that in the second, instead playing straight up and down the wings. This meant Dundee could easily crowd us out and counter. Can anyone remember one instance of Osman dropping between the centre halfs to provide an option for a pass, in the second half?

 

This week I had the joy of seeing Osman pitchside posing in his baseball cap outside the tunnel for another Instagram advert for his company. That's the point when I thought enough is enough, mixing business with pleasure, or at least taking his side job to his main workplace kind of pissed me off. His 2nd half display didn't help matters as he fannied about letting balls bounce instead of getting them tae fck. Not following runners and basically just hanging about.

I know the same old faces are grasping the opportunity to get back on the Archie Out bandwagon. But, he must be pulling his hair out like the rest of us. I can't imagine the amount of times he must have thought, what the fck are you's doing! 

Whilst I'm getting it out my system, Cerny's dallying and downright pish kicks are beginning to piss me off. 

I said at HT dundee never had a kick and we need to keep going and finish it and predicted a 'hold on to the lead' approach which we are useless at. Erskine should have made it 2 but as far as i mind that was the other shots we had missed the target worse than the boy trying to hit the bar at HT.

Regarding Cerny, why do we not mix it up and have a player come short like they did? He cant clear the half way line and the dundee boy had it EVERY time. Its unbelievably frustrating watching everyone congregate 20 yards. Thats Largs for you but. Why does he not claim/catch a cross in the 6 yard box? His hesitation rubs off. We missed mcginn. I dont care what anyone says, if your a winger you need to create half a yard and get the ball in. Hes been oot fir 2 year but he surely must know how to win games. For me though osman and woods were gubbed after an hour and they waltzed through us. The desperate defending minutes before they scored should have been the deafening siren. What does Archie do? Brings doolan on for Storey. In terms of ineffectual that was right up there. Prior to the equaliser osman went down waiting fir a hospital ball and luckily won a free kick. He tried the same again when it was 90/10 in his favour less than a minute later. I'll tell ye whats 'no easy' abdul, clear your lines. Bang. 5 minutes later hes waiting for a high ball to bounce in the box. Bang. See ye later, im away to make hats. I'll say it again, where the **** was McCarthy? Hes only played when were no bothered against the OF, and ye's laughed last week about a betting scandal? 5 years thanks Archie but your time is up, theres been more kicks in the soccer chuckies than cowdenbeath. If he can keep us up through a playoff then he can walk away a proud man

[Barney Rubble]

Jeezus I feel filthy.

That's twice in a month I've been wanting a Sevco win.

Jags, can we please win our own games so that other fixtures become an irrelevance?

[Garscube Road End]

38 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

Jeezus I feel filthy.

That's twice in a month I've been wanting a Sevco win.

Jags, can we please win our own games so that other fixtures become an irrelevance?

And St. Johnstone getting an unexpected point at Celtic.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

 I don't know what happened there.  Still struggling to understand how that was lost.  Dundee don't look that great.  They lost their 2 best players in Hendry and Allan but gained a real striker which they have needed for 18 months.

We were the better team in the 1st half with a 4 2 3 1 formation.  It changed in 2nd half to 4 3 1 2 and we lost the midfield battle.  Sammon and Storey standing waiting for the ball.  I still wasn't that worried but then 2 goals in 5 minutes and league table looks not so pretty.

What's the deal with Dumbayas name change?  He gets in good positions high up the pitch then doesn't take a man on. He's turned into David Amoo.

Thought Booth played well. Storey and Sammon direct and scare defenders.

Problèms were fitness levels, Cerny kicking (altho he made some great saves) and those Dundonian accents. 

[stillresigned]

11 hours ago, Jaggernaut said:

Maybe a lot of them think they are better than they actually are.

I’ve got a wee bit of advice for any of them that do they’re definitely not!