New Management

[Duke Gekantawa]

35 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think that Legs Like a Spider has made some very valid points. I have always thought myself as an Archie backer, and there is no doubt that he has made some vast improvements in the fortunes of Thistle, 4 years in the top flight is the longest that I can remember in a very long time. In some ways he deserves a chance to address the mistakes made, however there are some failings that have been consistent in our entire time in the Premiership

Late goals. Every season we have dropped vital points as a result of late goals against us. How different it would have been if we had held onto leads in the back to back games against Hamilton and Dundee, and you could list dozens of games where we have thrown away vital points in the last 5 minutes. He has never addressed this and shows no signs of doing so.

The tactics have always been a ponderous buildup from the back, letting the opposition get their defenders back into position. This is fine if you are Barcelona and have attackers who can pull the defenders out of place and make the gaps, but we don't have those players. Too often we pass the ball sideways or backwards until someone runs out of ideas and throws in an aimless cross which a big defender eats upfor breakfast. It is far too predictable and rarely changes

We seem to create very few scoring chances and again this has been the case for several seasons. Too often we are begging for someone to have a pop at goal,but instead we try to walk it in. That maybe due to the tactics mentioned above and the Dundee game shows what can be done why we try something different. The one time that Lawless runs down the centre, rather than playing out wide, and we score. 

Defending crosses and set pieces. How often have we said that this should be bread and butter for 2 former defenders to sort out, but week after week, year after year we are left pulling our hair out at cheep goals conceded.

Finally, creative signings. Our most creative players are Erskine, Doolan and Lawless. All of them first signed by previous managers. I don't think that Archie has found one of his own.

As I said, Archie has done many good things and we should be grateful for what he has achieved, however in my view it is time for a fresh start for both Archie and the club. I'm sure that he can learn from the mistakes and I'm sure that he will goon to a successful career, however I think that both he and the club need some fresh thinking and a break now ould probably be best in the long term for both parties.

 

 

Late goals: This was largely improved last season (and to a lesser extent the season before). Last season in particular, we were seeing out games quite comfortably, at least until the split

Defending crosses and set pieces: Again, this had been sorted out last season to the extent that I no longer was worried when we conceded a corner. And the season before, our defence was actually better (we conceded fewer goals).

creative signings: Erskine was signed by Archibald (that he played for us previously does not actually change that). Archibald also signed Higgy.

In truth, many of the problems were being addressed up to the end of last season, hence the clear progression till then. Things only went tits up this season.

[Lenziejag]

15 hours ago, javeajag said:

i would have some sympathy for this view if there was any evidence that Archie has learned anything this season that means he will improve his performance....as of now that is not evident

also he talks about the team and games as though he wasn't the manager (!) and in charge of what they do and how they do it..... i genuinely don't thin k he knows what to do

The problem is that with the transfer system we have you don’t get much opportunity to change things if it isn’t going well. We lost Lindsay just before the season started and brought in Turnbull on loan. He was then recalled in January and replaced by Cargill. It really is a gamble signing players

We were all over the moon that we managed to sign  Keown after his 6 months on loan. We thought that Storey and Spittal were decent signings. 

4 decent seasons for Archibald vs 1 poor one. That is the evidence. 

I am unsure whether Archie should be kept or not, but don’t think one bad season means that is likely to be permanent.

[Lenziejag]

12 hours ago, AndyMac said:

I honestly think it would be best if Archie were to walk away now, with his head held high.

I am just wondering, AndyMac if you would walk away from a job with no idea how you would provide for your family. 

It never fails to surprise me that football fans think that managers should do things that other professions wouldn’t 

[king of spain]

16 hours ago, javeajag said:

i would have some sympathy for this view if there was any evidence that Archie has learned anything this season that means he will improve his performance....as of now that is not evident

also he talks about the team and games as though he wasn't the manager (!) and in charge of what they do and how they do it..... i genuinely don't thin k he knows what to do

Talking like he isnt the manager is something that kills me about him, baffling choice of phrases used at times.

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

The problem is that with the transfer system we have you don’t get much opportunity to change things if it isn’t going well. We lost Lindsay just before the season started and brought in Turnbull on loan. He was then recalled in January and replaced by Cargill. It really is a gamble signing players

We were all over the moon that we managed to sign  Keown after his 6 months on loan. We thought that Storey and Spittal were decent signings. 

4 decent seasons for Archibald vs 1 poor one. That is the evidence. 

I am unsure whether Archie should be kept or not, but don’t think one bad season means that is likely to be permanent.

One if the problems in football is that predicting future performance can be v difficult 

so was this season a blip for Archie or was the season before the best he will do 

in my view if you compare this season to his first there has been a gradual decline 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

in my view if you compare this season to his first there has been a gradual decline 

Not really taking an opposite point of view, more for balance, but the return of Hearts, then sevco and now Hibs will have made the top league that bit harder gradually.

[javeajag]

Just now, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Not really taking an opposite point of view, more for balance, but the return of Hearts, then sevco and now Hibs will have made the top league that bit harder gradually.

I agree it has and I had us finishing 11th at the beginning of the season partly because the league is harder 

that doesn’t explain entirely the poor type of football this season 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 minute ago, javeajag said:

I agree it has and I had us finishing 11th at the beginning of the season partly because the league is harder 

that doesn’t explain entirely the poor type of football this season 

Agree there. It doesn't explain our very poor goal difference either, which indirectly relegated us. 

[AndyMac]

3 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

I am just wondering, AndyMac if you would walk away from a job with no idea how you would provide for your family. 

It never fails to surprise me that football fans think that managers should do things that other professions wouldn’t 

If you live by the sword you die by the sword. The board should offer to pay Archie & Shaggy the remainder of their contracts and let them walk.

I honestly believe that the pair of them have done their best and have given the job everything they have.

If Archie & Shaggy stay for next season and things don't go to plan, it will all turn very ugly. They deserve better than that.

[AndyMac]

6 hours ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

If we do replace Archie, I would rather take a punt at an upcoming manager than someone like McCall.  McCall’s last season at this level ended in a dismal relegation, remember. I’m not sure of the relevance of Goodwin’s playing ability, mind. And much of what you said about Goodwin also applies to Archie as a player.

Who do you have in mind?

[allyo]

Arteta?

[Jag]

17 hours ago, laukat said:

First game I went to was in in the early eighties after relegation from the top flight to see a team managed by a young manager (Peter Cormack), keen to learn from the mistakes he made as he got us relegated to ensure we return quickly to the top league. It only took another 10 years to get back to the top league, the first 2 seasons after relegation we were competitive, the next 5 we struggled to stay in the league as the financial impact of failing to return in the first 2 seasons kicked in.

Fast forward to our next relegation and we've been relegated under Murdo Mcleod an eager young manager, keen to learn from the mistakes made as he got us relegated to ensure we return quickly to the premier league. We give him a season to learn from his mistakes and we fail, financial impact kicks in, save the jags and we're another 6 seasons before we get back to the top flight.

Then we get relegated again in 2005 but its ok because we have an eager young management team, keen to learn from the mistakes made as they got us relegated to ensure we return quickly to the top league. Surprisingly that doesn't work so we don't get back to the top league for another 8 years.

So we're now in 2018 we've just been relegated but its ok because we have a young manager, keen to learn from the mistakes made as he got us relegated and we'll make a quick return to the top league........

As much as I can see where you are coming from I would have to defend Archibald compared with all those others. He has already had a period of relative success at the club, the others hadn't.  Also, severe lack of finances didn't help a couple of those managers, especially Cormack.

Got pretty depressed reading your post, awful times for the club!! Murdo bloody McLeod.

[AndyMac]

9 minutes ago, allyo said:

Arteta?

Why do you rate him Allyo?

[laukat]

I've read quite a few comments that are along the lines of if he can show he can learn from this and improve he should stay.

Archie is what Archie is. A decent guy and a competent day to day manager of a football club but he struggles to find players and with in-game tactics. He's unlikely to have got a chance at a championship club (as we where when he was appointed) if it wasn't for his playing career with us. He now has 4/5 years worth of experience so he isn't going to show rapid improvement as that tends to come in your first year or two. I struggle to think of any manager at any club who has been able to develop into something different after almost 5 years in post.

The other argument for keeping him seems to be that as a thistle person we should give him more time

However he's survived in the job longer than a non-thistle player would have been allowed to  based on his attribute as a player. (Incidentally I think he knew he wouldn't get that time in England or at another club so turned down those job offers for security rather than loyalty to Thistle) If he leaves now he might get a job at Morton or Dumbarton and will probably be employable. If he hangs around with us for another season and fails he'll probably not get another managers job. When Dundee United came in for him as a player he didn't hang about so I don't get why we think we owe him something?

[jagfaelivi]

A lot of sense being talked on here but maybe more heat than light. What about specifics? I thought the year we came up that our game far too often petered out in the last third. It was always to the wings and worked sometimes when we had O'Donnell and Taylor Sinclair and we had an Erskine , very creative, through the middle. Despite changes in players in the years in the top flight we still seem to want to play to the wings and, on the rare occasion we make it to within ten yards of the goal line, too often, the ball is woeful and usually just to a diminutive forward or, recently, out of play!

i'm certain there is a general football statistic that a tiny percentage of goals are scored from crosses. But that has continued to be our modus operandi, for six seasons, whether we had players to suit it or not.

 

The other thing that NEVER changes is our feeble use of free kicks and corners. I watch other teams, arguably far less talented teams, and they do creative things with corners and free kicks. Livi did it and Hamilton have done it. Every time the Jags cross it. When was the last time you saw a short ball or a ball disguised to a player running from the side or ANYTHING creative  (like an inswinger right on top of the goalie or that one where the whole attack runs forward when the kick is taken )that wouldn't be gobbled up by a half competent defence?

And this season we have taken to being just as bad defending free kicks and corners. How Liam Lindsay saved us last year ( and I can go away back to Jim Duffy's bald heid and before that the golden locks of Jackie Campbell, neither of whom was a giant). And don't get me started on throw ins!

 

i have asked time and again why we don't do better with these things. We are a full time team but we continue to look clueless in these areas where a bit of thought might just improve us. Repeatedly we hear that teams are good with set pieces. Why are we not?

 

i am fed up watching same old, same old. I doubt Archie will change any of this now.

[laukat]

12 minutes ago, Jag said:

Got pretty depressed reading your post, awful times for the club!! Murdo bloody McLeod.

It wasn't my intention to depress anyone. It was more a hope to avoid another period of prolonged depression!

Murdo McLeod was bad but Benny Rooney, Derek Johnstone, Tommy Bryce, and Dick Campbell were way worse. In my mind they were a symptom of not dealing with things after a relegation and show you were it can take you to.

My son first started  watching thistle during the 2013 promotion season so he's been spared having to see the Alan Carson's, Bryan Purdie's and Willie Calllaghan's of the world. I hope he never has to endure that as I can't afford the counseling sessions he would need.

[allyo]

17 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Why do you rate him Allyo?

I don't rate him. I know nothing about him. He was hotly tipped for Arsenal, and I'm sure is well paid by Manchester City, so he might be just beyond our reach.

But to be honest I really don't know how you judge a potential manager, particularly when they've little or no experience. People talking about Goodwin; I'm not sure what he has achieved that Archie, or Paul Hartley, or Jim Duffy, or Alan Johnstone, or any number of managers before him have not. Seems to me that the more someone has been around, the more reasons people find to write them off. One bad year can outweigh five good ones. It's a very strange profession.

[allyo]

4 minutes ago, laukat said:

It wasn't my intention to depress anyone. It was more a hope to avoid another period of prolonged depression!

Murdo McLeod was bad but Benny Rooney, Derek Johnstone, Tommy Bryce, and Dick Campbell were way worse. In my mind they were a symptom of not dealing with things after a relegation and show you were it can take you to.

My son first started  watching thistle during the 2013 promotion season so he's been spared having to see the Alan Carson's, Bryan Purdie's and Willie Calllaghan's of the world. I hope he never has to endure that as I can't afford the counseling sessions he would need.

Weren't Benny Rooney, Derek Johnstone, Tommy Bryce, and Dick Campbell all employed after a relegation?

[Garscube Road End]

7 minutes ago, allyo said:

Weren't Benny Rooney, Derek Johnstone, Tommy Bryce, and Dick Campbell all employed after a relegation?

Dick Campbell came while we were in the then 1st division and promptly took us down.

[AndyMac]

3 minutes ago, allyo said:

I don't rate him. I know nothing about him. He was hotly tipped for Arsenal, and I'm sure is well paid by Manchester City, so he might be just beyond our reach.

But to be honest I really don't know how you judge a potential manager, particularly when they've little or no experience. People talking about Goodwin; I'm not sure what he has achieved that Archie, or Paul Hartley, or Jim Duffy, or Alan Johnstone, or any number of managers before him have not. Seems to me that the more someone has been around, the more reasons people find to write them off. One bad year can outweigh five good ones. It's a very strange profession.

Well, if he's not good enough for Arsenal, he's not good enough for us.

If we look at where we are today, that's probably the best way to go. Whoever is in charge, hasn't got much of a team left, time is very much of the essence. We have 8 weeks to cobble together a new team and hit the ground running.

Whatever happens a decision has to be made as soon as possible.

 

[Lenziejag]

4 hours ago, javeajag said:

One if the problems in football is that predicting future performance can be v difficult 

so was this season a blip for Archie or was the season before the best he will do 

in my view if you compare this season to his first there has been a gradual decline 

what would the criteria be for that view, though.

I think there would be at least one criteria where this season is the blip,albeit a pretty dire one. That criteria would be when safety was assured.

[allyo]

6 minutes ago, Garscube Road End said:

Dick Campbell came while we were in the then 1st division and promptly took us down.

But we had been relegated from the Premier the season before.

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, AndyMac said:

If you live by the sword you die by the sword. The board should offer to pay Archie & Shaggy the remainder of their contracts and let them walk.

I honestly believe that the pair of them have done their best and have given the job everything they have.

If Archie & Shaggy stay for next season and things don't go to plan, it will all turn very ugly. They deserve better than that.

I guess that is fair enough and I am pretty sure that Archie now regrets not taking the Shrewsbury ? job last year. It would be a shame for his reputation at Thistle to be tarnished further, but providing for your family takes precedence in my view.

[Lenziejag]

40 minutes ago, laukat said:

I've read quite a few comments that are along the lines of if he can show he can learn from this and improve he should stay.

Archie is what Archie is. A decent guy and a competent day to day manager of a football club but he struggles to find players and with in-game tactics. He's unlikely to have got a chance at a championship club (as we where when he was appointed) if it wasn't for his playing career with us. He now has 4/5 years worth of experience so he isn't going to show rapid improvement as that tends to come in your first year or two. I struggle to think of any manager at any club who has been able to develop into something different after almost 5 years in post.

The other argument for keeping him seems to be that as a thistle person we should give him more time

However he's survived in the job longer than a non-thistle player would have been allowed to  based on his attribute as a player. (Incidentally I think he knew he wouldn't get that time in England or at another club so turned down those job offers for security rather than loyalty to Thistle) If he leaves now he might get a job at Morton or Dumbarton and will probably be employable. If he hangs around with us for another season and fails he'll probably not get another managers job. When Dundee United came in for him as a player he didn't hang about so I don't get why we think we owe him something?

I am sure that you are really only talking about managers at our level, but the one manager that springs to mind developing after 5 years is Ferguson at Man U.

I am actually quite proud of Thistle not sacking managers recently. It has been one of the things that distinguishes us from other clubs

[watties wallies]

1 hour ago, laukat said:

I've read quite a few comments that are along the lines of if he can show he can learn from this and improve he should stay.

Archie is what Archie is. A decent guy and a competent day to day manager of a football club but he struggles to find players and with in-game tactics. He's unlikely to have got a chance at a championship club (as we where when he was appointed) if it wasn't for his playing career with us. He now has 4/5 years worth of experience so he isn't going to show rapid improvement as that tends to come in your first year or two. I struggle to think of any manager at any club who has been able to develop into something different after almost 5 years in post.

The other argument for keeping him seems to be that as a thistle person we should give him more time

However he's survived in the job longer than a non-thistle player would have been allowed to  based on his attribute as a player. (Incidentally I think he knew he wouldn't get that time in England or at another club so turned down those job offers for security rather than loyalty to Thistle) If he leaves now he might get a job at Morton or Dumbarton and will probably be employable. If he hangs around with us for another season and fails he'll probably not get another managers job. When Dundee United came in for him as a player he didn't hang about so I don't get why we think we owe him something?

it's on record that archie didn't ask for a transfer the club needed the money at that time so he had to go