laukat Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 15 minutes ago, allyo said: Weren't Benny Rooney, Derek Johnstone, Tommy Bryce, and Dick Campbell all employed after a relegation? Yes but they were appointed at a time when we were in a poor state due to letting the manager that relegated us having a season or two at trying to get us back up My reasoning is that if we had binned Cormack and brought in an experienced manager the club would have not deteriorated to a level that we had to hire Rooney. Johnstone was another slide down the way and it wasn't until Jim Oliver, Bobby Watson et al appeared and put some money into attracting Lambie that we actually got back on the right path. Same applies with Murdo. If we had managed to return to the premier league in one season would there have been a save the jags season? If there's no save the jags there's no Bryce. We were fortunate that after Bryce, Lambie happened to need a job as we had no money to attract a decent replacement. Ditto with Whyte and Britton. If we bin them immediately after relegation its unlikely that we ever suffer Dick Campbell. After Campbell we again we got lucky that McCall was available having been let go by Queen of the South as we didn't have the finances to change it. I think everyone would agree that McCall started the turn around that lead to our last promotion To my mind when you get relegated you have a chance that you must take to start again immediately. The financial situation only gets worse the longer you leave it and the hope that the guy who's in post will learn from his mistakes is based on history false hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted May 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 32 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: I am sure that you are really only talking about managers at our level, but the one manager that springs to mind developing after 5 years is Ferguson at Man U. I am actually quite proud of Thistle not sacking managers recently. It has been one of the things that distinguishes us from other clubs To be honest if we sacked our manager every year and were successful I’d be happy ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, watties wallies said: it's on record that archie didn't ask for a transfer the club needed the money at that time so he had to go My memory must be failing me. I thought he was out of contract at the end of the 2002/3 season and left for better wages and longer contract? Was that not the summer we lost Alex Burns and Scott Paterson partly because our approach was only to sign players on 1 year deals as well as Lambie retiring to be replaced by Collins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggy Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 26 minutes ago, watties wallies said: it's on record that archie didn't ask for a transfer the club needed the money at that time so he had to go He went on freedom of contract I'm sure along with several others that summer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashman Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 15 minutes ago, laukat said: My memory must be failing me. I thought he was out of contract at the end of the 2002/3 season and left for better wages and longer contract? Was that not the summer we lost Alex Burns and Scott Paterson partly because our approach was only to sign players on 1 year deals as well as Lambie retiring to be replaced by Collins? That is my recollection also. Transfermkt website supports it being a free transfer. Understandable that he didn't fancy playing under Collins and could presumably get more cash at DU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggy Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 23 minutes ago, laukat said: My memory must be failing me. I thought he was out of contract at the end of the 2002/3 season and left for better wages and longer contract? Was that not the summer we lost Alex Burns and Scott Paterson partly because our approach was only to sign players on 1 year deals as well as Lambie retiring to be replaced by Collins? We also lost Craigan & Hardie. Collins may have been the reason they left, but to lose 5 of our top players at once always meant we were going to have problems the next season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 We also lost David Lilley. It was six. Collins was hopeless but he was also up against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, javeajag said: To be honest if we sacked our manager every year and were successful I’d be happy ! Silly question but why would be sacking successful managers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenski Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Lenziejag said: I am sure that you are really only talking about managers at our level, but the one manager that springs to mind developing after 5 years is Ferguson at Man U. I am actually quite proud of Thistle not sacking managers recently. It has been one of the things that distinguishes us from other clubs Tend to find that managers that are appointed in a panicked knee-jerk manner end up getting the bullet not too long after. Getting the right person takes time. So unless the board have been on the case behind the scenes, I think the options are very limited. Maybe not the most positive way of looking at it, but that's where we are in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome on the Bing Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 I'm relieved that this discussion is to a large extent reasonable, constructive and evidence-based. For most of the season I was of the view that Archie should stay irrespective of whether we got relegated or not. However, the sheer extent of the deficiencies that have led us to this juncture – be they tactical or to do with the make-up of the squad, and which have been noted above by the likes of Legs Like A Spider and Lady-Isobel-Barnett (even though the latter arrives at the conclusion that Archie should stay) – has eroded the solidity of my stance. And never more was this the case than in the playoff games, which hauled our deficiencies into the starkest, blazing light. Our performance in these games was utterly dire and must have given even the most staunch supporter of Archie food for thought. So where am I? Well, as others have noted, a lot will rest on the extent to which Archie can demonstrate to the Board that 1) he has a comprehensive understanding of what exactly led to us being relegated; and 2) this awareness is backed up by a convincing narrative for how he would avoid repeating such errors going forward. Should Archie convince on these questions – and I take it for granted that the Board will be asking them – then I’m happy for Archie to continue in post. I believe that the margins are small at the top; that errors can easily be made with recruitment that are then difficult to rectify during the season; that Archie is a young and developing manager whose knowledge of, and commitment to, the club can’t be questioned; and that there are limited options available to us should there be a parting of ways. So I’ve wavered but ultimately I’ll be content with Archie staying. But it would be nice if we could ditch the automatic application of the ‘happy-clapper’ moniker each time someone expresses support for the manager. I’m sure everyone is giving serious consideration as to the best way forward. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weebaw1 Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 I have great reservations about who should come in. The best appointments and only good appointments(apart from Archie himself)have been Lambie,McCall and MacNamara. Lambie speaks for himself but I think the board identified that they wanted the other 2 while the there was an incumbent still in place. OK, so QOS had parted company with McCall but that was rather suspicious as everyone at Firhill wanted him. If they have identified someone like Goodwin then Archie goes now. I dont think Archie should be sacked until someone is identified. It would of course be a very sad to day to replace him with Goodwin who we regarded as a bit of a thug but perhaps he is now what is required to re-ignite the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 56 minutes ago, fenski said: I am sure that you are really only talking about managers at our level, but the one manager that springs to mind developing after 5 years is Ferguson at Man U. Ferguson did at Manchester United pretty much what he did at Aberdeen in that he took about 3 years to change the team into what he wanted to be (i'm told he did the same at St Mirren but I was too young to remember that). The thing that made Ferguson a true managerial great is that he had an ability to constantly rebuild teams and could spot talent in players no matter their age. Some managers are good at bringing through youth and some at making more experienced players give that extra bit more but he could do it across generations. The big surprise was that Manchester United board were clued up enough to realise he could do it if and that they gave him the time to do it he would. Ferguson already had the skills he just took it to a bigger stage. Actually finding a manager that changed their style after 5 years and gained success is rare. There is probably such a person out there but I can't think of one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Gnome on the Bing said: I'm relieved that this discussion is to a large extent reasonable, constructive and evidence-based. Very good point. This forum was becoming a bit of a waste of time as most discussions were ending up in nit-picking and arguing over trivial matters. If there is one positive out of relegation it seems to be that the fans on this forum are united on finding the best way forward and open to possibilities others put forward. I clearly believe that Archie needs to go but if the board choose to go with him I will be back at Firhill for the opening game hoping we beat whoever we have in front of us and that Archie is successful. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted May 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Fawlty Towers said: Silly question but why would be sacking successful managers? Wasn’t meant other than the only measure of success in football is on the park nit necessarily the longevity of managers eg Watford who change coach every and it seems to work for them or arsenal who held on the wenger too long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawlty Towers Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, laukat said: Very good point. This forum was becoming a bit of a waste of time as most discussions were ending up in nit-picking and arguing over trivial matters. If there is one positive out of relegation it seems to be that the fans on this forum are united on finding the best way forward and open to possibilities others put forward. I clearly believe that Archie needs to go but if the board choose to go with him I will be back at Firhill for the opening game hoping we beat whoever we have in front of us and that Archie is successful. That is a great point - I am in the keep Archie camp but if the Board decide to go down a different path I will give the new person all the support I would have given Archie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Some excellent posts on here both for Archie staying or going.I just hope the board don't take to long in making their decision,Morton are also looking for a manager and Ross at St.Mirren doesn't seem to know if he will be in Paisley or England next season.If we are looking to replace Archibald we don't want to be beaten to our managerial target by some other team and if we are sticking with the current managerial team we should be giving them as much time as possible for them to get a good squad together. Of course the decision might already have been made and as usual we fans will be the last to know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted May 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 I suspect the Board will opt to keep Archie just a hunch I will be renewing my season ticket whatever happens and if he does stay I hope he turns things round 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) Can just imagine board members whispering to each other "Lets have a look in wearethistle and see what the fans are saying, then we can blame them if it all goes wrong. Aw naw they're actually being reasonable and balanced on there. What the hell are we goin to do now?" Edited May 22, 2018 by scotty grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 4 hours ago, javeajag said: I suspect the Board will opt to keep Archie just a hunch I will be renewing my season ticket whatever happens and if he does stay I hope he turns things round I will also be renewing my season ticket.Although I had been to games before season 1968/69 was my first full season supporting Thistle so 50 years next season.Relegation although disappointing will not stop me and I hope the majority of us going back to Firhill. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroon Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 I was all for giving Archie this season to see if we could retain a place in the top league but it's not worked and like some relationships they run their course. That said, it's a bit unseemly to be banding about names while the guy is still in the job. The Board surely have to take account the feelings of the fans. From the various threads It does seem like the consensus ( between 2/3 and 3/4?) of posters want a change in management. Will the Board be reading these posts and will that influence their decision? Would it be an idea to have a poll with a vote along the lines of...…..The Board should... 1 Look now to recruit a new management team 2 Give Archie a few months and then review the situation 3 Give Archie a season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 minute ago, macaroon said: I was all for giving Archie this season to see if we could retain a place in the top league but it's not worked and like some relationships they run their course. That said, it's a bit unseemly to be banding about names while the guy is still in the job. The Board surely have to take account the feelings of the fans. From the various threads It does seem like the consensus ( between 2/3 and 3/4?) of posters want a change in management. Will the Board be reading these posts and will that influence their decision? Would it be an idea to have a poll with a vote along the lines of...…..The Board should... 1 Look now to recruit a new management team 2 Give Archie a few months and then review the situation 3 Give Archie a season I don't want to sound disrespectful, but are you being serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaroon Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 In what respect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinhead Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 days on and nobody is any the wiser....why do I get the feeling we will be dragging our heels and pull together a last minute team and struggle next season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laukat Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Pinhead said: why do I get the feeling we will be dragging our heels and pull together a last minute team and struggle next season Because that's what we've done every time we've been relegated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, macaroon said: I was all for giving Archie this season to see if we could retain a place in the top league but it's not worked and like some relationships they run their course. That said, it's a bit unseemly to be banding about names while the guy is still in the job. The Board surely have to take account the feelings of the fans. From the various threads It does seem like the consensus ( between 2/3 and 3/4?) of posters want a change in management. Will the Board be reading these posts and will that influence their decision? Would it be an idea to have a poll with a vote along the lines of...…..The Board should... 1 Look now to recruit a new management team 2 Give Archie a few months and then review the situation 3 Give Archie a season That would be a good start. We could then vote for a new squad. And pick the team every week. While we're at it, hands up for better veggie options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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