Thistle v Motherwell

[Gaucho]

The fact Archie has done so well in the past is even more an indictment of where we are now and the very reason why he should leave. To be in charge of a squad that made the top 6 last season  to the disorganised shambles we now have must be laid at his door. Something has obviously happened between him and Osman (the club Captain). I really do think he has lost the plot. Two must win home games and we only take one point from six. We are all amazed he is continuing to play Elliot out of position whilst he has a left back sitting on the bench. If he doesn't think Penrice is good enough why does he only play him in the OF games? His record of bringing strikers to the club is pathetic.  He and the vast majority of that squad have to go regardless of whether we survive or not. If we draw on Saturday and County win we are down due to the swing in goal difference caused by that 4 nil humping in Dingwall. He should have been sacked that night to give a Manager with some tactical knowledge  a chance to keep us up.

[allyo]

My view on Archie as manager is that you have to look at two separate things, his long-term record in the job and our current predicament based on this season's form.

In his five years in charge I think it is beyond question that Alan Archibald has been a successful Thistle manager. The way we closed out the promotion season was spectacular, and our league finishes in the time since have continued to be strong. Last year's top six finish was a significant achievement, our best finish in what, 35 years? and I don't accept any argument against that. There have been dodgy performances along the way, and periods where things haven't gone so well, but that would be the case for any manager. Before this season we always pulled through strongly, which must be to his credit. His record in the top flight (and in cup competitions) is comparable with John Lambie, who is universally recognised as a club legend (albeit it is difficult to compare between eras).

And I don't go for any told-you-so, after the event wisdom this season. For the last five years I've been getting told that Archie was useless and he should be getting sacked; by people who have then gone quiet or just got happy at the end of the season. So even if the worst happens this season, getting it right one year out of five doesn't make you a genius.

I also think the abuse and lack of respect on here sometimes is out of order. The guy has served the club for 19 of the last 22 years, was part of three promotions as a player, has steered the club to success as a manager, and has always conducted himself with dignity and humility. He has been a very successful and loyal Thistle person. In a harsh business that's not a reason why he should stay in a job, but I think it should earn a bit of respect.

With regard to this season, it's obviously been poor. I do think the injuries played a significant part in our early season problems, but since the winter break there's not been that excuse. At that point we looked well placed to do much better than this (I don't think sacking anyone at that point would have been sensible).  I think our squad is decent but this year we've never had a decent team; you don't know who's playing in any position from week to week and I think that's a real problem. From the outside that looks like an error by the management.

The signings haven't looked great, but I don't think anyone is completely useless, it's just that no one has really settled. I don't believe players haven't tried, but there's never been the belief of last season. I'm also disappointed by some decisions, and in particular the decision recently to play Christie Elliott at left back baffles me (though I'm always conscious that I don't know all the circumstances). Anyway, we're obviously in trouble, and the management has to take responsibility for that.

As a result I think the jury is out at the moment. We need to see what happens over the next couple of games. Thistle are capable of staying up; and if we do then it will be a case of everyone (players, management, board level, fans) looking back and considering the whole. If we don't then I suppose it's the same, but the judgement may be harsher. In the meantime I'm just supporting the Jags, with my fingers crossed.

 

 

[javeajag]

The jury is out ?!

the best we can achieve is the playoffs we may get relegated on Saturday......

61 goals against in 37 games equal worst with Ross County

30goals scored in 37 games the worst in the league

7 wins all season 1away from home

a standard of football that is woeful

a system and team selection that baffle week in week out 

the past in foot all means very little look at Arsenal Wenger .....had a great season in 2006

there is no evidence that Archie has a x,us how to turn things round not a clue 

“ experience is not what happens to a person is what they do with what happens to them.....” in this case very little 

[allyo]

yes, the jury is out. We have one and potentially three critical games ahead. I don't think it matters what's gone before, there's no point in making any decisions until these games have been played.

[laukat]

Just looked at the highlights last night and unfortunately it looks like Elliot who let Bowman get a free header for their goal. I like Christie Elliot and he's a great asset to the squad but we have recognised full backs sitting on the bench. I don't know whats wrong with Dumbaya. Last time I saw him was in the 2-1 defeat to Dundee at home and whilst he was a bit rusty he carried more attacking threat than Elliot or McGinn ever do. 

In fairness to McGinn he played one of his better games last night but for us to function in an attacking sense we need width, pace and delivery from the fullback area's. Booth does this well at left back and Penrice is the next best option but even Dumbaya at left back is a better shout than Elliot.

[ClydebankJag]

1 hour ago, The Jukebox Rebel said:

Not true. That stat was based on finishing in the Top 10 5-seasons-in-a-row and his side have blown chance after chance to make it happen.

That’s what I get for not reading your informative posts in detail  TJR, thanks for the correction.

[BowenBoys]

29 minutes ago, allyo said:

My view on Archie as manager is that you have to look at two separate things, his long-term record in the job and our current predicament based on this season's form.

In his five years in charge I think it is beyond question that Alan Archibald has been a successful Thistle manager. The way we closed out the promotion season was spectacular, and our league finishes in the time since have continued to be strong. Last year's top six finish was a significant achievement, our best finish in what, 35 years? and I don't accept any argument against that. There have been dodgy performances along the way, and periods where things haven't gone so well, but that would be the case for any manager. Before this season we always pulled through strongly, which must be to his credit. His record in the top flight (and in cup competitions) is comparable with John Lambie, who is universally recognised as a club legend (albeit it is difficult to compare between eras).

And I don't go for any told-you-so, after the event wisdom this season. For the last five years I've been getting told that Archie was useless and he should be getting sacked; by people who have then gone quiet or just got happy at the end of the season. So even if the worst happens this season, getting it right one year out of five doesn't make you a genius.

I also think the abuse and lack of respect on here sometimes is out of order. The guy has served the club for 19 of the last 22 years, was part of three promotions as a player, has steered the club to success as a manager, and has always conducted himself with dignity and humility. He has been a very successful and loyal Thistle person. In a harsh business that's not a reason why he should stay in a job, but I think it should earn a bit of respect.

With regard to this season, it's obviously been poor. I do think the injuries played a significant part in our early season problems, but since the winter break there's not been that excuse. At that point we looked well placed to do much better than this (I don't think sacking anyone at that point would have been sensible).  I think our squad is decent but this year we've never had a decent team; you don't know who's playing in any position from week to week and I think that's a real problem. From the outside that looks like an error by the management.

The signings haven't looked great, but I don't think anyone is completely useless, it's just that no one has really settled. I don't believe players haven't tried, but there's never been the belief of last season. I'm also disappointed by some decisions, and in particular the decision recently to play Christie Elliott at left back baffles me (though I'm always conscious that I don't know all the circumstances). Anyway, we're obviously in trouble, and the management has to take responsibility for that.

As a result I think the jury is out at the moment. We need to see what happens over the next couple of games. Thistle are capable of staying up; and if we do then it will be a case of everyone (players, management, board level, fans) looking back and considering the whole. If we don't then I suppose it's the same, but the judgement may be harsher. In the meantime I'm just supporting the Jags, with my fingers crossed.

 

 

Completely agree will all that you have said about Archibald's achievement. He has done a brilliant job steering us from the old First Division to Top 6.

I don't think we need to wait until the last kick of the season to discuss the future, I certainly hope the Board won't. We are, potentially, one goal away from relegation and I wouldn't put money on us being the ones scoring it.

There are, I believe, eleven players out of contract in the summer plus two returning to their parent clubs. A massive rebuilding job lies ahead. The big question is, should we trust Archibald with that task? 

[allyo]

I'm sure it's being discussed. But surely any decision has to take into account how we finish, and where we are heading next season. That will influence everything else. That's all I'm saying.

[javeajag]

38 minutes ago, allyo said:

yes, the jury is out. We have one and potentially three critical games ahead. I don't think it matters what's gone before, there's no point in making any decisions until these games have been played.

I agree with that ... but imo he should leave now even if we stay up 

[king of spain]

38 minutes ago, laukat said:

Just looked at the highlights last night and unfortunately it looks like Elliot who let Bowman get a free header for their goal. I like Christie Elliot and he's a great asset to the squad but we have recognised full backs sitting on the bench. I don't know whats wrong with Dumbaya. Last time I saw him was in the 2-1 defeat to Dundee at home and whilst he was a bit rusty he carried more attacking threat than Elliot or McGinn ever do. 

In fairness to McGinn he played one of his better games last night but for us to function in an attacking sense we need width, pace and delivery from the fullback area's. Booth does this well at left back and Penrice is the next best option but even Dumbaya at left back is a better shout than Elliot.

Christie Elliott is a terrible footballer for this level, I couldnt care less how much effort he puts in.

 

McGinn, Devine & Elliott would not be on the books of 95% of SPL teams.

[Lenziejag]

7 hours ago, javeajag said:

Well I for one hope we make 11th and win the play off.....relegation is a disaster.... I said at the start of the season we would finish 11th it was clear early on 

im waiting for all those who stood by Archie to stand up for him now ....he should have gone in December.....we are a very poor team, very poor 

major changes needed in the summer 

I will have a try.  1 bad season out of 6. Mistakes have been made this season and hopefully everyone will have learned from that.

In his 1st season as manager he took the team on an unbeaten run that resulted in us winning the league. Each year since we improved, reaching the top 6 last season.

Ross County changed their manager twice. It didn’t help them.

Incidentally, both of these clubs had the hardest start to the season.

[allyo]

6 hours ago, javeajag said:

I agree with that ... but imo he should leave now even if we stay up 

As an opinion, that's fair enough. This season has been poor, and I get where you're coming from.

But if we were to stay up you'd be looking at a Thistle manager who got us to the premier league and has kept us there for six years. In any long term context, certainly in my time supporting the Jags, that virtually makes him a miracle worker. It would certainly be difficult to justify a straight sacking on these grounds. But I think the club and the management would need to do a bit of soul searching on where things have gone wrong this season, whether it can be turned around, whether the appetite and drive and shared ambitions are still there. A lot of things that I don't really know, and (looking to the future) go beyond this season's performances.

Edited May 9, 2018 by allyo

[Fearchar]

2 hours ago, allyo said:

My view on Archie as manager is that you have to look at two separate things, his long-term record in the job and our current predicament based on this season's form.

In his five years in charge I think it is beyond question that Alan Archibald has been a successful Thistle manager. The way we closed out the promotion season was spectacular, and our league finishes in the time since have continued to be strong. Last year's top six finish was a significant achievement, our best finish in what, 35 years? and I don't accept any argument against that. There have been dodgy performances along the way, and periods where things haven't gone so well, but that would be the case for any manager. Before this season we always pulled through strongly, which must be to his credit. His record in the top flight (and in cup competitions) is comparable with John Lambie, who is universally recognised as a club legend (albeit it is difficult to compare between eras).

And I don't go for any told-you-so, after the event wisdom this season. For the last five years I've been getting told that Archie was useless and he should be getting sacked; by people who have then gone quiet or just got happy at the end of the season. So even if the worst happens this season, getting it right one year out of five doesn't make you a genius.

I also think the abuse and lack of respect on here sometimes is out of order. The guy has served the club for 19 of the last 22 years, was part of three promotions as a player, has steered the club to success as a manager, and has always conducted himself with dignity and humility. He has been a very successful and loyal Thistle person. In a harsh business that's not a reason why he should stay in a job, but I think it should earn a bit of respect.

With regard to this season, it's obviously been poor. I do think the injuries played a significant part in our early season problems, but since the winter break there's not been that excuse. At that point we looked well placed to do much better than this (I don't think sacking anyone at that point would have been sensible).  I think our squad is decent but this year we've never had a decent team; you don't know who's playing in any position from week to week and I think that's a real problem. From the outside that looks like an error by the management.

The signings haven't looked great, but I don't think anyone is completely useless, it's just that no one has really settled. I don't believe players haven't tried, but there's never been the belief of last season. I'm also disappointed by some decisions, and in particular the decision recently to play Christie Elliott at left back baffles me (though I'm always conscious that I don't know all the circumstances). Anyway, we're obviously in trouble, and the management has to take responsibility for that.

As a result I think the jury is out at the moment. We need to see what happens over the next couple of games. Thistle are capable of staying up; and if we do then it will be a case of everyone (players, management, board level, fans) looking back and considering the whole. If we don't then I suppose it's the same, but the judgement may be harsher. In the meantime I'm just supporting the Jags, with my fingers crossed.

 

 

The way I see it, five years ago he guided the then team to promotion; five years later, he is reduced to placing his hopes on Doolan, Erskine and Lawless. If that doesn't ring alarm bells, then I don't know what will. Then there is the way any random traditionally-built centre-forward was pushed into the team during those five years in place of Doolan.

There is a determination to adopt a system and then play it, regardless of what players are available. The team has generally been lucky with left backs in particular, but on our budget selecting players to suit the system is not an affordable long-term strategy. Refusing to build a team around players like Doolan (a productive goal-scorer and even provider) because they don't fit a pre-determined system has led to season after season of low scoring in the top flight. That inflexibility has also led to the consequences of failing to get signings and it is also obvious in the poor substitutions - both late and ineffective or even unreasonable.

So yes, it may have been a long run, but have there been many highlights? Has the record against the top two or three clubs been significantly better? Have the crowds been entertained with plenty of goals? Has the ambition of making it to a cup final been achieved? Is there a long-term strategy for the first team? Time's up, Archie.

[Lenziejag]

6 minutes ago, Fearchar said:

The way I see it, five years ago he guided the then team to promotion; five years later, he is reduced to placing his hopes on Doolan, Erskine and Lawless. If that doesn't ring alarm bells, then I don't know what will. Then there is the way any random traditionally-built centre-forward was pushed into the team during those five years in place of Doolan.

There is a determination to adopt a system and then play it, regardless of what players are available. The team has generally been lucky with left backs in particular, but on our budget selecting players to suit the system is not an affordable long-term strategy. Refusing to build a team around players like Doolan (a productive goal-scorer and even provider) because they don't fit a pre-determined system has led to season after season of low scoring in the top flight. That inflexibility has also led to the consequences of failing to get signings and it is also obvious in the poor substitutions - both late and ineffective or even unreasonable.

So yes, it may have been a long run, but have there been many highlights? Has the record against the top two or three clubs been significantly better? Have the crowds been entertained with plenty of goals? Has the ambition of making it to a cup final been achieved? Is there a long-term strategy for the first team? Time's up, Archie.

Ok - let’s have it. Which Thistle manager in the last 25 years has achieved these aspirations of yours.

Perhaps it isn’t Thistle that are meeting your aspirations - maybe another club?

[Weebaw1]

Entertainment. That’s what we should be getting. It would help if we won on the odd occasion but if we kept losing 2-3 or 3-4 I could just about take it. 

0-1 all the time makes me want to chuck it and 3 out of our 5 regulars have had enough. Only 2 Of is for Dundee and it’s gonna be crap. Till we get new management!

[javeajag]

23 minutes ago, allyo said:

As an opinion, that's fair enough. This season has been poor, and I get where you're coming from.

But if we were to stay up you'd be looking at a Thistle manager who got us to the premier league and has kept us there for six years. In any long term context, certainly in my time supporting the Jags, that virtually makes him a miracle worker. It would certainly be difficult to justify a straight sacking on these grounds, but I think the club and the management would need to do a bit of soul searching on where things have gone wrong this season, whether it can be turned around, whether the appetite and drive and shared ambitions are still there. A lot of things that I don't really know, and (looking to the future) go beyond this season's performances.

In any organisation you get to the situation  where the people who got you to this point can’t get you to the next stage of your development .....and I think that’s the situation with Archie I for one do t see any signs of learning from this debacle....indeed I can make a case we are in footballling terms going backwards

[northjag]

Poor second half performance last night. First half was encouraging though. Big changes needed in the summer regardless of what league we are in. I would play our best passers of the ball on Saturday as we need guys with composure. Hopefully archie realises that. We are no good when we punt the ball forward. We are at our best when we are passing the ball. Lets all get behind the team!

 

 

[king of spain]

7 minutes ago, northjag said:

Poor second half performance last night. First half was encouraging though. Big changes needed in the summer regardless of what league we are in. I would play our best passers of the ball on Saturday as we need guys with composure. Hopefully archie realises that. We are no good when we punt the ball forward. We are at our best when we are passing the ball. Lets all get behind the team!

 

You do know we started our "best passers" v Hamilton & St Johnstone and were utter muck till we changed it and went more direct?

 

[joekea]

19 hours ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

Hamilton and County both losing. If only our crap team had a bit of bottle, tonight could have been a very good night for us. Hopefully Archie unfolds his arms in the last 20, and gets this sorted. 

Archie did unfold his arms many hundreds of times....each time to look at his watch! Maybe he would be better to concentrate on how to set up and win a game of football.

Utter dross!

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, Weebaw1 said:

Entertainment. That’s what we should be getting. It would help if we won on the odd occasion but if we kept losing 2-3 or 3-4 I could just about take it. 

0-1 all the time makes me want to chuck it and 3 out of our 5 regulars have had enough. Only 2 Of is for Dundee and it’s gonna be crap. Till we get new management!

So if the current management learn lessons from this season and turn things round, they won’t return

[Garscube Road End]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

Ok - let’s have it. Which Thistle manager in the last 25 years has achieved these aspirations of yours.

Perhaps it isn’t Thistle that are meeting your aspirations - maybe another club?

That doesn't address what Fearcher said. You are using deflectionary tactics. Is a 25 year period relevant to the tenure that Archie has had? And further deflection in asking him if he should support another club. Why should he? He is a Thistle fan.

[allyo]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

In any organisation you get to the situation  where the people who got you to this point can’t get you to the next stage of your development .....and I think that’s the situation with Archie I for one do t see any signs of learning from this debacle....indeed I can make a case we are in footballling terms going backwards

I think we agree there is a decision to be made.

[Barney Rubble]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

Ok - let’s have it. Which Thistle manager in the last 25 years has achieved these aspirations of yours.

Perhaps it isn’t Thistle that are meeting your aspirations - maybe another club?

That's a poor response Lenziejag, you are better than that. We've had one semi-final since 1979.

Ross County, St Johnstone, St Mirren, Kilmarnock, Fake Thistle, Hibs, Hearts have all won major trophies in the last ten years.

Add to that QoS, Falkirk, Sevco, Dundee United, Motherwell have all been to major finals in that period.

What's wrong with any Jags' fan having similar aspirations?

[Lenziejag]

32 minutes ago, Garscube Road End said:

That doesn't address what Fearcher said. You are using deflectionary tactics. Is a 25 year period relevant to the tenure that Archie has had? And further deflection in asking him if he should support another club. Why should he? He is a Thistle fan.

Fearchars argument is all over the place, though. 1st off he is criticising Archibald for being “reduced to placing his hopes on Erskine, Doolan and Lawless” Then he says Archie should have built his team around Doolan.

However, I wasn’t addressing that bit, but the last part of his post. 

He is criticising Archibald for not achieving those goals that Fearchar has defined. I think my question on which Thistle Manager has achieved that is relevant. Again, I didn’t ask him which club he should support, I asked which club has achieved his goals. 

But if the cap fits ?

[Lenziejag]

27 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

That's a poor response Lenziejag, you are better than that. We've had one semi-final since 1979.

Ross County, St Johnstone, St Mirren, Kilmarnock, Fake Thistle, Hibs, Hearts have all won major trophies in the last ten years.

Add to that QoS, Falkirk, Sevco, Dundee United, Motherwell have all been to major finals in that period.

What's wrong with any Jags' fan having similar aspirations?

Sure we would all love Thistle to win cups from time to time, but it is 50 years nearly since we have. That isn’t all down to Archibald’s management. A bit of perspective is needed