Thistle v Motherwell

[Barney Rubble]

3 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Fearchars argument is all over the place, though. 1st off he is criticising Archibald for being “reduced to placing his hopes on Erskine, Doolan and Lawless” Then he says Archie should have built his team around Doolan.

However, I wasn’t addressing that bit, but the last part of his post. 

He is criticising Archibald for not achieving those goals that Fearchar has defined. I think my question on which Thistle Manager has achieved that is relevant. Again, I didn’t ask him which club he should support, I asked which club has achieved his goals. 

But if the cap fits ?

maybe another club (could meet your aspirations)? 

That was your comment to Fearchar. That seems to me an ungracious and frankly unnecessarily simplistic response to his post which asked several very valid questions.

[Lenziejag]

17 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

maybe another club (could meet your aspirations)? 

That was your comment to Fearchar. That seems to me an ungracious and frankly unnecessarily simplistic response to his post which asked several very valid questions.

I think I responded to his points as well. 

And just to be clear. I am a Thistle supporter and signed up to all that entails. I don’t understand supporters that compare us to other teams and that get upset with the ebb and flow of our success.

I don’t care what other teams achieve.

if that seems ungracious, then so be it.

[allyo]

Hmm. I took it as "perhaps another club?" has met these aspirations. 

On that, you look at the record of other clubs in the time since Alan Archibald took over. Hamilton's is maybe similar, and one of their managers got a premiership job out of it. And they've been in a play off. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United, St Mirren, Inverness have all been relegated. Falkirk and Morton (who started 8 points ahead) haven't managed up. Dunfermline have struggled a bit (in difficult circumstances obviously). Kilmarnock have been good this season but didn't generally better us before that. Similarly Motherwell. And they've both been in play offs despite being more established clubs. Dundee have been okay but no better than us despite, I assume,  greater resources. Aberdeen and Celtic and Sevco aren't comparable. Ross County have been decent, but probably better funded, and are currently in worse shape than us. Airdrie, Ayr, Queen of the South, Raith Rovers. Nowhere. So that leaves St Johnstone. Well done St Johnstone (though if it's exciting football you're after...).

Okay I'm ignoring cups, in which we've been consistently average, but generally been knocked out by bigger clubs. Alan Archibalds disappointingly average record in cups is probably better than any thistle manager in 40 years. In the Cups we were hopeless under John Lambie and everyone else. 

So yeah, I'm also struggling to see who has met these aspirations. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by allyo

[joekea]

3 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

Ok - let’s have it. Which Thistle manager in the last 25 years has achieved these aspirations of yours.

Perhaps it isn’t Thistle that are meeting your aspirations - maybe another club?

We all know what your reply post is about......."If you don't like it then support someone else"....that's the top or bottom of it. Nasty Lenziejag .....Nasty!

[Lenziejag]

21 minutes ago, joekea said:

We all know what your reply post is about......."If you don't like it then support someone else"....that's the top or bottom of it. Nasty Lenziejag .....Nasty!

Partly it was, but it was also to try to get Fearchar or anyone else to define what success would look like for them.  I think that Allyo has pretty much gone through every comparable club to us(and some considerably “bigger”). And apart from cup success, our recent achievements exceed theirs.

[javeajag]

I think we can agree this disastrous season does actually have something to do with the manager 

[joekea]

7 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Partly it was, but it was also to try to get Fearchar or anyone else to define what success would look like for them.  I think that Allyo has pretty much gone through every comparable club to us(and some considerably “bigger”). And apart from cup success, our recent achievements exceed theirs.

Okay points taken....I understand that we are all feeling a bit disappointed and frustrated at the moment but you make a good point - What does success look like?

I would have to consider this for some time because I would be unsure to be honest. Maybe it would be just about enjoyment. For me its not so much about results or which division we play in, its more about - we look as if we can compete, we try to play good football, we play as if we have a hunger to win and that we have sensible ambition (from the Board downwards) both on and off the park.

Other thoughts appreciated.

[joekea]

12 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I think we can agree this disastrous season does actually have something to do with the manager 

Absolutely no doubt about it javajag. A rabbit caught in the headlights etc. comes to mind!

[Lenziejag]

8 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I think we can agree this disastrous season does actually have something to do with the manager 

The manager does have to take some responsibility, but so do the players, medical staff, the board, whoever drew up Lindsay’s contract, whoever tried to tempt players to Firhill. It’s probably been a perfect storm this season for Thistle

[allyo]

Happy to admit that it has to do with the manager, and always happy to have a sensible conversation with those who also accept that he takes much credit for previous success.

ETA - Actually just read that back. Correcting myself. Always happy to have a sensible conversation with anyone who's prepared to have a sensible conversation. Regardless of what you think

Edited May 9, 2018 by allyo

[jlsarmy]

14 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Partly it was, but it was also to try to get Fearchar or anyone else to define what success would look like for them.  I think that Allyo has pretty much gone through every comparable club to us(and some considerably “bigger”). And apart from cup success, our recent achievements exceed theirs.

This season has  been an absolute disaster , having watched PTFC for 45 years I know there will always be peaks and troughs watching our club . I would term a successful season as one where the team has played to the best of their ability , don't think anyone can say that this season.  I would also say the level of  organisation within the team is there for all to see with the amount of goals we lose from set pieces , and vice versa at the other end of the park where we're very rarely a threat . The management have got to be culpable for most of this as they're the ones who coach the players on a day to day basis and formulate tactics etc. 

For  whatever reason the recruitment of players has been a disaster , once again leaving it to the last minute to sign players , basically getting whatever is left, last season we finished in the top 6 so new signings should have been bedded in early.

The time has come for a change whether we stay up or not , this season isn't remotely a success whatever way you want to dress it up inept tactics etc and I think the players have lost confidence in the management team as well.

The most important thing just now is our club not Alan Archibald if we get relegated 

 

[Auld Jag]

3 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

This season has  been an absolute disaster , having watched PTFC for 45 years I know there will always be peaks and troughs watching our club . I would term a successful season as one where the team has played to the best of their ability , don't think anyone can say that this season.  I would also say the level of  organisation within the team is there for all to see with the amount of goals we lose from set pieces , and vice versa at the other end of the park where we're very rarely a threat . The management have got to be culpable for most of this as they're the ones who coach the players on a day to day basis and formulate tactics etc. 

For  whatever reason the recruitment of players has been a disaster , once again leaving it to the last minute to sign players , basically getting whatever is left, last season we finished in the top 6 so new signings should have been bedded in early.

The time has come for a change whether we stay up or not , this season isn't remotely a success whatever way you want to dress it up inept tactics etc and I think the players have lost confidence in the management team as well.

The most important thing just now is our club not Alan Archibald if we get relegated 

 

Agree with this particularly the last sentence.Also to add our game management has been terrible losing 25 points from a winning position proves this.

[Auld Jag]

13 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

I will have a try.  1 bad season out of 6. Mistakes have been made this season and hopefully everyone will have learned from that.

In his 1st season as manager he took the team on an unbeaten run that resulted in us winning the league. Each year since we improved, reaching the top 6 last season.

Ross County changed their manager twice. It didn’t help them.

Incidentally, both of these clubs had the hardest start to the season.

We  have 1 league game left I think using a hard start as an excuse is just that an excuse.After we lost to Kilmarnock at Firhill we played 13 games up to the winter break and we got 17 points. I would suggest that proves we got over the hard start.We have had a number of chances to get up to 10th and we have not taken them.We can still stay in this league but we will need to start scoring and defending.The annoying thing for me is we didn't have to be great this season to be safe by now,imo mediocre would have seen us finish 10th.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Auld Jag

[Norgethistle]

12 hours ago, allyo said:

My view on Archie as manager is that you have to look at two separate things, his long-term record in the job and our current predicament based on this season's form.

In his five years in charge I think it is beyond question that Alan Archibald has been a successful Thistle manager. The way we closed out the promotion season was spectacular, and our league finishes in the time since have continued to be strong. Last year's top six finish was a significant achievement, our best finish in what, 35 years? and I don't accept any argument against that. There have been dodgy performances along the way, and periods where things haven't gone so well, but that would be the case for any manager. Before this season we always pulled through strongly, which must be to his credit. His record in the top flight (and in cup competitions) is comparable with John Lambie, who is universally recognised as a club legend (albeit it is difficult to compare between eras).

And I don't go for any told-you-so, after the event wisdom this season. For the last five years I've been getting told that Archie was useless and he should be getting sacked; by people who have then gone quiet or just got happy at the end of the season. So even if the worst happens this season, getting it right one year out of five doesn't make you a genius.

I also think the abuse and lack of respect on here sometimes is out of order. The guy has served the club for 19 of the last 22 years, was part of three promotions as a player, has steered the club to success as a manager, and has always conducted himself with dignity and humility. He has been a very successful and loyal Thistle person. In a harsh business that's not a reason why he should stay in a job, but I think it should earn a bit of respect.

With regard to this season, it's obviously been poor. I do think the injuries played a significant part in our early season problems, but since the winter break there's not been that excuse. At that point we looked well placed to do much better than this (I don't think sacking anyone at that point would have been sensible).  I think our squad is decent but this year we've never had a decent team; you don't know who's playing in any position from week to week and I think that's a real problem. From the outside that looks like an error by the management.

The signings haven't looked great, but I don't think anyone is completely useless, it's just that no one has really settled. I don't believe players haven't tried, but there's never been the belief of last season. I'm also disappointed by some decisions, and in particular the decision recently to play Christie Elliott at left back baffles me (though I'm always conscious that I don't know all the circumstances). Anyway, we're obviously in trouble, and the management has to take responsibility for that.

As a result I think the jury is out at the moment. We need to see what happens over the next couple of games. Thistle are capable of staying up; and if we do then it will be a case of everyone (players, management, board level, fans) looking back and considering the whole. If we don't then I suppose it's the same, but the judgement may be harsher. In the meantime I'm just supporting the Jags, with my fingers crossed.

 

 

Let’s remember that for 4 out the 5 years there was  missing a combination of Rangers Hibs & Hearts

We got top 6 on less points than the two seasons previous 

His win % started to drop 2 seasons ago

We got top 6 on 42 points, the 2 previous seasons we had 46 points do not as great an achievement as made out.

 

We go on about him being the best manager we’ve had in top flight. His win % ratio is the same as Lambie’s, yet 4 out the 5 seasons we’ve been missing all or a mix of Rangers, Hibs or Hearts. Lambie was competing against teams with Gascoigne, Laudrup, Cadette, etc in them

 

13/14 Win% = 21%

14/5 Win% = 31%

15/16 Win% = 31%

16/17 Win% = 26%

17/18 Win% = 18%

Even our 1st season if hearts hadn’t been deducted 15 points a been forced to play kids we would have been in the playoffs.

We have performed at best OK in the worst premiership in decades

Edited May 10, 2018 by Norgethistle

[Norgethistle]

10 hours ago, Fearchar said:

Has the record against the top two or three clubs been significantly better? Have the crowds been entertained with plenty of goals? Has the ambition of making it to a cup final been achieved? Is there a long-term strategy for the first team? Time's up, Archie.

1sr question - No, it’s been abysmal and worst in league 

2nd question - No football and entertainment has steadily deteriorated over the 5 years

3rdquestion - No, but maybe that’s a stretch goal, a semi final in 5 years in one competition should have been attained 

4th question - No idea but doesn’t seem so

[Jaggernaut]

10 hours ago, northjag said:

Poor second half performance last night. First half was encouraging though. Big changes needed in the summer regardless of what league we are in. I would play our best passers of the ball on Saturday as we need guys with composure. Hopefully archie realises that. We are no good when we punt the ball forward. We are at our best when we are passing the ball. Lets all get behind the team!

 

 

Plenty of good sideways and backwards passers in the team. But that amounts to hopelessness when it comes to winning matches.

[stuart_adam]

I have no doubt Liam Lindsay was a big loss at a small fee however...

this season we are going down to lack of goals. We have only scored 30 goals in 37 games. That is utterly shocking.

Sammon has 7, Doolan and Erskine 5 each, Edwards and Spittal 4 each - thats 25 of our 30 goals. I believe the others are Storey (2) Keown (2) Lawless.

Also to put goals into perspective.

5 vs St J took 7 pts in 4 games

4 vs Motherwell took 4 pts in 4 games

4 vs Ross County took 5 pts in 4 games

4 vs Hamilton  7 pts in 4 games

3 vs Aberdeen took 1pt from 3 games

3 goals vs Dundee 3 pts in 3 games

2 goals vs Rangers 1pt in 3 games

2 goals vs Hearts 2pts in 3 games

1 goal vs Celtic 0pt in 3 games

1 goal vs Hibs 0pt in 3 games

1 goal vs Killie 0 pt in 3 games

 

So against top 6 sides we scored 10 goals in 18 games whilst conceeding 36 (an average of 2 per game).  And 3 of those 10 came in a 4-3 defeat, and 2 in a 2-2 draw.  So that means in the other 16 games we scored just 5 goals and  conceeded 30 in those 16. Against the top 6 we took home 4 points out of a possible 54.

against the bottom 6 we have scored 20 goals conceeding 25 in 19 games. Taking home 26 pts out of a possible 57.

lets not kid ourselves our biggest failure has been against the top 6. 4 points from 54 is an abomination - and 10 goals in 18 games whilst conceeding 36...

 

[jaf]

Having read this thread, two points which haven’t been made.

player recruitment - the point has been made be got the duds no one else wanted.  St Johnstone tried to sign spittal, storey and sammon, and were especially disappointed not to get sammon. 

Achievement this season - some are comparing performance versus other seasons since promotion.  I think there is a difference.  From the stats I have seen, on those earlier seasons our budget was the 11th highest in the league and so play offs were really where we ought to have been. In that sense Archibald over achieved. This season however I am sure I read somewhere  that our average budget per player was 10th or perhaps even 9th biggest. In which case, Archibald has undoubtedly under achieved this season using that criteria.  

[javeajag]

It is fair to point out that in financial terms we are spending more than Ross County and a Hamilton and around the same level as Dundee and St Johnstone so we are underachieving 

also we can acknowledge that Archie did well as long as we acknowledge he is now doing very badly 

[Lenziejag]

6 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

We  have 1 league game left I think using a hard start as an excuse is just that an excuse.After we lost to Kilmarnock at Firhill we played 13 games up to the winter break and we got 17 points. I would suggest that proves we got over the hard start.We have had a number of chances to get up to 10th and we have not taken them.We can still stay in this league but we will need to start scoring and defending.The annoying thing for me is we didn't have to be great this season to be safe by now,imo mediocre would have seen us finish 10th.

I was in two minds whether to include the hard start in my post. In my mind it certainly contributed to our performances as the season went on as we were always trying to catch up. 

 

[allyo]

6 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Let’s remember that for 4 out the 5 years there was  missing a combination of Rangers Hibs & Hearts

We got top 6 on less points than the two seasons previous 

His win % started to drop 2 seasons ago

We got top 6 on 42 points, the 2 previous seasons we had 46 points do not as great an achievement as made out.

 

We go on about him being the best manager we’ve had in top flight. His win % ratio is the same as Lambie’s, yet 4 out the 5 seasons we’ve been missing all or a mix of Rangers, Hibs or Hearts. Lambie was competing against teams with Gascoigne, Laudrup, Cadette, etc in them

 

13/14 Win% = 21%

14/5 Win% = 31%

15/16 Win% = 31%

16/17 Win% = 26%

17/18 Win% = 18%

Even our 1st season if hearts hadn’t been deducted 15 points a been forced to play kids we would have been in the playoffs.

We have performed at best OK in the worst premiership in decades

Nah. Not having this and I don't understand why any thistle fan would want to deny our achievements.

Last season was our most successful since promotion because we finished sixth, regardless of any flawed statistics. The reduced points total was a direct result of us achieving top six, it's common for sixth place to finish with a lower total than 7th or 8th due to the tougher games. We'd been knocking on the door for a couple of years before that which only shows positive consistency; not a reason to knock the manager.

And I've not heard many saying Archie is our most successful top flight manager, but his record compares well. Why diminish the top six finish based on Hibs absence? Hibs were out of the premiership on merit, and were relegated beneath Thistle. No one was excluded.

It's difficult to compare eras, as I said, and I certainly don't want to downplay Lambie's achievements which were great. But for context and directly addressing your point;  his team were up against a historically poor celtic team; and lost regularly to the rangers team including Laudrup,  Gascoigne etc.

I have no problem with anyone questioning this season's problems, but knocking down the previous years' achievements is an unnecessary and inaccurate rewriting of history.

[Alan Murray]

15 hours ago, allyo said:

Hmm. I took it as "perhaps another club?" has met these aspirations. 

On that, you look at the record of other clubs in the time since Alan Archibald took over. Hamilton's is maybe similar, and one of their managers got a premiership job out of it. And they've been in a play off. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United, St Mirren, Inverness have all been relegated. Falkirk and Morton (who started 8 points ahead) haven't managed up. Dunfermline have struggled a bit (in difficult circumstances obviously). Kilmarnock have been good this season but didn't generally better us before that. Similarly Motherwell. And they've both been in play offs despite being more established clubs. Dundee have been okay but no better than us despite, I assume,  greater resources. Aberdeen and Celtic and Sevco aren't comparable. Ross County have been decent, but probably better funded, and are currently in worse shape than us. Airdrie, Ayr, Queen of the South, Raith Rovers. Nowhere. So that leaves St Johnstone. Well done St Johnstone (though if it's exciting football you're after...).

Okay I'm ignoring cups, in which we've been consistently average, but generally been knocked out by bigger clubs. Alan Archibalds disappointingly average record in cups is probably better than any thistle manager in 40 years. In the Cups we were hopeless under John Lambie and everyone else. 

So yeah, I'm also struggling to see who has met these aspirations. 

 

9

9

This is a great post that puts Archibald’s record into perspective with teams of a similar size to us. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Alan Murray

[Third Lanark]

15 hours ago, allyo said:

Hmm. I took it as "perhaps another club?" has met these aspirations. 

On that, you look at the record of other clubs in the time since Alan Archibald took over. Hamilton's is maybe similar, and one of their managers got a premiership job out of it. And they've been in a play off. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United, St Mirren, Inverness have all been relegated. Falkirk and Morton (who started 8 points ahead) haven't managed up. Dunfermline have struggled a bit (in difficult circumstances obviously). Kilmarnock have been good this season but didn't generally better us before that. Similarly Motherwell. And they've both been in play offs despite being more established clubs. Dundee have been okay but no better than us despite, I assume,  greater resources. Aberdeen and Celtic and Sevco aren't comparable. Ross County have been decent, but probably better funded, and are currently in worse shape than us. Airdrie, Ayr, Queen of the South, Raith Rovers. Nowhere. So that leaves St Johnstone. Well done St Johnstone (though if it's exciting football you're after...).

Okay I'm ignoring cups, in which we've been consistently average, but generally been knocked out by bigger clubs. Alan Archibalds disappointingly average record in cups is probably better than any thistle manager in 40 years. In the Cups we were hopeless under John Lambie and everyone else. 

So yeah, I'm also struggling to see who has met these aspirations. 

We did get to a semi final under lambie to be fair

[Duke Gekantawa]

15 hours ago, allyo said:

Hmm. I took it as "perhaps another club?" has met these aspirations. 

On that, you look at the record of other clubs in the time since Alan Archibald took over. Hamilton's is maybe similar, and one of their managers got a premiership job out of it. And they've been in a play off. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee United, St Mirren, Inverness have all been relegated. Falkirk and Morton (who started 8 points ahead) haven't managed up. Dunfermline have struggled a bit (in difficult circumstances obviously). Kilmarnock have been good this season but didn't generally better us before that. Similarly Motherwell. And they've both been in play offs despite being more established clubs. Dundee have been okay but no better than us despite, I assume,  greater resources. Aberdeen and Celtic and Sevco aren't comparable. Ross County have been decent, but probably better funded, and are currently in worse shape than us. Airdrie, Ayr, Queen of the South, Raith Rovers. Nowhere. So that leaves St Johnstone. Well done St Johnstone (though if it's exciting football you're after...).

Okay I'm ignoring cups, in which we've been consistently average, but generally been knocked out by bigger clubs. Alan Archibalds disappointingly average record in cups is probably better than any thistle manager in 40 years. In the Cups we were hopeless under John Lambie and everyone else. 

So yeah, I'm also struggling to see who has met these aspirations. 

This, to me, is the most reasonable post here.

I see you mention Killie as having a good season (which they have). However, in the time Archibald has manged Thistle, they have sacked 6 full time managers! (which can't be cheap). Many of the other teams around us have sacked at three (Motherwell and Dundee off the top of my head- Ross County have sacked two this season and are still worse off than us).

I think it is telling that, of the 12 teams which made up the SPFL premiership in our first season up (2013-2014), by the end of this season, 9 of them will have finished at least one of following seasons in the bottom 2. The only exceptions are Celtic, Aberdeen and St. Johnstone. It's a very difficult league to maintain consistency.

[allyo]

34 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

We did get to a semi final under lambie to be fair

Yes. One in nine years. And we've been in several quarter finals with Archibald. I suppose it depends where you define success, but I don't think anyone is raving about our cup record under any of them. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by allyo