Livingston 2nd leg

[jaggy]

8 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

This. The most predictable part of our play. A team "playing for its life" casually plays the ball sideways and backwards, mostly in their own half. Typified by Barton runs 10 or 20 yards with the ball at his feet, stops, turns around, and passes the ball back 10 or 20 yards. Not an ounce of urgency in him; hope he's out the door.

He couldn't get down the tunnel quick enough!

[ScottyDFA]

Sammon's two-step run-up and half-baked strike for the penalty. He couldn't be arsed. GTF

 

[a f kincaid]

Don't suppose anyone is laughing this morning but football is a funny old game (copyright, J Greaves). 

Posts on here are already linking  players with clubs that were our rivals this season all of whom bar one managed to finish above us without their services.   Does it not seem strange that clubs suddenly find players who for the most part have been desperately poor playing against them to be worth signing?   What do they see in them that we never saw this season?  If they prove to be really good signings, why weren't they/couldn't they be the same for us?  

Just for the record, until yesterday Thistle had scored 4 out of 4 penalties (Sammon scored 3 of them).  Agree his run-up looked suspect.

If it's true McGinn has signed a pre-season contract with St Mirren then there was no holding back from him.  To his credit, I though he was fully committed in the last part of the season.

Ironically, Lawless had one of his best games for Thistle yesterday.  I said at the time perhaps he's playing for a contract (elsewhere).

Barton and the phrase "hurry up" are permanent strangers.

[sb1876]

6 minutes ago, a f kincaid said:

Don't suppose anyone is laughing this morning but football is a funny old game (copyright, J Greaves). 

Posts on here are already linking  players with clubs that were our rivals this season all of whom bar one managed to finish above us without their services.   Does it not seem strange that clubs suddenly find players who for the most part have been desperately poor playing against them to be worth signing?   What do they see in them that we never saw this season?  If they prove to be really good signings, why weren't they/couldn't they be the same for us?  

Just for the record, until yesterday Thistle had scored 4 out of 4 penalties (Sammon scored 3 of them).  Agree his run-up looked suspect.

If it's true McGinn has signed a pre-season contract with St Mirren then there was no holding back from him.  To his credit, I though he was fully committed in the last part of the season.

Ironically, Lawless had one of his best games for Thistle yesterday.  I said at the time perhaps he's playing for a contract (elsewhere).

Barton and the phrase "hurry up" are permanent strangers.

"For fck sake Barton" is one of my most used this season.  He's a gifted but truly scary player to watch when he's been mincing around anywhere near our back line this season.

Edited May 21, 2018 by sb1876

[laukat]

Barton at centre half yesterday was actually pretty good. Which begs the question of why did Archie not put Barton there a few weeks ago rather than Devine?

I would assume that Archie lost the dressing room in  February as from that point on he started to not use certain players. Looks like the return of the injured players in January was more of a problem than a help because he couldn't find a way of keeping them all happy. Clearly Dumbaya didn't like being on the bench, Storey looked unhappy at getting left on the bench in favour of an on-loan signing, Penrice couldn't have been happy watching Elliot, Osman couldn't have enjoyed watching Edwards, McCarthy, Woods and Barton being preffered to him.

[Jaggernaut]

16 minutes ago, laukat said:

Barton at centre half yesterday was actually pretty good. Which begs the question of why did Archie not put Barton there a few weeks ago rather than Devine?

I would assume that Archie lost the dressing room in  February as from that point on he started to not use certain players. Looks like the return of the injured players in January was more of a problem than a help because he couldn't find a way of keeping them all happy. Clearly Dumbaya didn't like being on the bench, Storey looked unhappy at getting left on the bench in favour of an on-loan signing, Penrice couldn't have been happy watching Elliot, Osman couldn't have enjoyed watching Edwards, McCarthy, Woods and Barton being preffered to him.

There may well be something in that.

[king of spain]

19 minutes ago, laukat said:

Barton at centre half yesterday was actually pretty good. Which begs the question of why did Archie not put Barton there a few weeks ago rather than Devine?

I would assume that Archie lost the dressing room in  February as from that point on he started to not use certain players. Looks like the return of the injured players in January was more of a problem than a help because he couldn't find a way of keeping them all happy. Clearly Dumbaya didn't like being on the bench, Storey looked unhappy at getting left on the bench in favour of an on-loan signing, Penrice couldn't have been happy watching Elliot, Osman couldn't have enjoyed watching Edwards, McCarthy, Woods and Barton being preffered to him.

Penrice one for me is the most bizzare of them all, would love to know why he had zero confidence in the guy.

[laukat]

Penrice was bizarre and if you look at Motherwell at home and Ross County home and away we were crying out for a left sided player. Instead of which we got Elliot.

If I were Penrice I would be questioning why its worth staying after that.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

It was a frustrating game.  A horrible game.  Livi genuinely are a horrible team to watch including their time wasting but they were effective.  They matched us all over the field, were well drilled with 2 banks of 5 and knew all the cute stuff.  If they had been a European team people would have been lauding them although disliking their cynicism.  I certainly don't want to see Thistle play like that ever.

The game was our season in a nutshell.  We huffed and we puffed but we could not break through.  It was an attacking line up with everyone's preferred trio of Dools, Lawless and Erskine on from the start.  3 players who have brought me immense joy.  I'd hate to see them lose but they have mortgages and families and like everyone look at their current account and the end of the month and think "f*** me where did it all go?".

I cannot criticise the sideways passing as that is what is needed looking for some space to open up.  We did not lump it up the park and played better than the 1st leg but Livi were very disciplined and the gaps were not appearing.  I thought everyone put in a shift and tried but we did no have enough.  McCarthy and Woods fought hard in the centre but could not get the ball moving quickly enough to get forward.  Barton would carry the  ball forward but there was no space to pass through or runs to find some space.  The subs even made sense as we went with almost 2 at the back and that still could not work.

It was a good crowd (maybe would have been a few hundred bigger if it was not for testimonial at Parkhead) and decent support especially from the John Lambie Stand and there were many disappointed faces who I recognised but do not personally know.  My 10 year old nephew was in tears at the end which led me to having a lump in my throat as there is nothing you can say to a boy that age.  Football is so important.

Being in work today I'm surprised how gutted I am.  I'm 40 years old with 2 kids and I feel like I've been dumped.   Scotland have given me a good few blows but I'm used to that and there is only a 3 or 4 home games a year per qualifying.  This is a new low though.  The past 5 years have been good with the promo season superb and last season great and I still could not really tell you how this happened.  It was a slow decline and maybe it was obvious to us all but we could not accept it until now.  We have more attacking players this season than last.  Our defence has been weak and our confidence started to chip away.  Lindsay leaving was a blow, Devine became a bombscare, Keown was not as good as last year but I could not pinpoint it and say "yes there it is".

We are in a stronger position than when we last got relegated.  Financially we are good but there will be cut backs and changes.  There will always be a Partick Thistle.  The Red and Yellow will still be on show.  Every one one of us is unique and can hold our head up high not following the Old Firm, the tribalism, those songs, the franchised sectarianism and the sheep mentality.  We start again.

[macaroon]

I have to say that despite all the gloom there's been some fine posts not least this one from Lambies Lost Doo, captures a lot of my thoughts on a difficult Monday.  The last paragraph is quite inspiring.   Also. thankfully,  the discussions generally have been measured.... so far.    

This feels worse than the play-off defeat 20+ years at Tannadice.   Whatever we think of them Dundee Utd had a good team, they are a club with a European pedigree and have a large support.  Compare and contrast with Livi……..

I have to sadly agree that Archie has to move on, a really decent and likable bloke but time for a new chapter for Thistle.

 

[Jag]

Yet again Archie tried to go with two up top in the second half and yet again it failed. As soon as I saw Sammon coming on I knew it was going to be difficult.

We had actually done reasonably well in the first half then lost a sloppy goal. Putting another striker on gave us one less player in midfield, meaning the long ball was often the favoured option. I didn't work on Thursday and it didn't work yesterday.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”

[milhouse]

3 hours ago, macaroon said:

I have to say that despite all the gloom there's been some fine posts not least this one from Lambies Lost Doo, captures a lot of my thoughts on a difficult Monday.  The last paragraph is quite inspiring.   Also. thankfully,  the discussions generally have been measured.... so far.    

This feels worse than the play-off defeat 20+ years at Tannadice.   Whatever we think of them Dundee Utd had a good team, they are a club with a European pedigree and have a large support.  Compare and contrast with Livi……..

I have to sadly agree that Archie has to move on, a really decent and likable bloke but time for a new chapter for Thistle.

 

Let's face it, Sunday was humiliating. Livingston are often described as a club with minimal history, poor support, unpassionate support. I was looking for an authoritative, dominant home performance from Thistle as a club with a long, proud history in Scottish football. It was insipid.

Alan Archibald has been given a level of sycophancy from a section of the support that no other Thistle manager has had. This is solely due to the fact that he was a popular player of a number of seasons in a successful team. People really need to admit that this is the case, and also admit that this has led to a high level of subjectivity when assessing his teams' performances and results. Just because you'd really like a manager to be good because he was a popular former player, doesn't mean that he actually is.

There have been some great results, I won't deny it. The Championship winning season was a fantastic time. It's unclear whether this would have all happened anyway with McNamara in charge - there is a good chance it would have. In the top flight, most memorably for me, Hearts 4-2, Kilmarnock 2-0, Dundee United 1-0. However, these have been balanced towards an overall negative with the extraordinary number of late goals lost over the last 5 seasons, and just about every performance this season. In particular, late goals against the Old Firm. These are important games for Thistle fans. People remember how they feel more than they remember league placings.

To me, the point of competitive, professional sport should be to constantly striving to acheive as much as possible. However, not everyone involved with PTFC has that attitude as they shrug their shoulders and see failure as just what happens to Thistle. I would like a manager who wants to win every game of football his team plays. I will remember Archibald's top flight teams as permanently fragile.

[allyo]

See this sycophancy argument winds me up.  I didn't want Alan Archibald when McNamara left because I thought it was a sentimental risk. And since then I've backed him only because results have been good. They undeniably have been before this season. If you can't remember many highlights it's your own failure.

The only reason he should be kept on is if a positive decision is made that he's the best person available for the job. I think you can make a decent list of positives and negatives. But I really don't think that anyone would claim that his Thistle playing career should be a factor.

However it is a reason why he should be respected.

[Fearchar]

1 hour ago, milhouse said:

Let's face it, Sunday was humiliating. Livingston are often described as a club with minimal history, poor support, unpassionate support. I was looking for an authoritative, dominant home performance from Thistle as a club with a long, proud history in Scottish football. It was insipid.

Alan Archibald has been given a level of sycophancy from a section of the support that no other Thistle manager has had. This is solely due to the fact that he was a popular player of a number of seasons in a successful team. People really need to admit that this is the case, and also admit that this has led to a high level of subjectivity when assessing his teams' performances and results. Just because you'd really like a manager to be good because he was a popular former player, doesn't mean that he actually is.

There have been some great results, I won't deny it. The Championship winning season was a fantastic time. It's unclear whether this would have all happened anyway with McNamara in charge - there is a good chance it would have. In the top flight, most memorably for me, Hearts 4-2, Kilmarnock 2-0, Dundee United 1-0. However, these have been balanced towards an overall negative with the extraordinary number of late goals lost over the last 5 seasons, and just about every performance this season. In particular, late goals against the Old Firm. These are important games for Thistle fans. People remember how they feel more than they remember league placings.

To me, the point of competitive, professional sport should be to constantly striving to acheive as much as possible. However, not everyone involved with PTFC has that attitude as they shrug their shoulders and see failure as just what happens to Thistle. I would like a manager who wants to win every game of football his team plays. I will remember Archibald's top flight teams as permanently fragile.

This expresses it for me: it's essential to want to win every game, but that will to win has been posted missing for years.

[AndyMac]

38 minutes ago, allyo said:

See this sycophancy argument winds me up.  I didn't want Alan Archibald when McNamara left because I thought it was a sentimental risk. And since then I've backed him only because results have been good. They undeniably have been before this season. If you can't remember many highlights it's your own failure.

The only reason he should be kept on is if a positive decision is made that he's the best person available for the job. I think you can make a decent list of positives and negatives. But I really don't think that anyone would claim that his Thistle playing career should be a factor.

However it is a reason why he should be respected.

I too, clapped the team off on Sunday, because I believe that the vast majority of them tried their best; as have Archie & Shaggy.

Nevertheless, we were heavily relying on the old staggers signed by previous management, in a desperate last bid to keep us up. Archie has been in charge for five full seasons, this was the team that Archie built and to be frank, it's a rank rotten team. Furthermore, Archie has had the good fortune to be at the helm during very benign and stable financial circumstances.

Ask your self this question. Is the team that Alan Archibald built over the past five years much better or worse than the one he inherited?

If you think it's much worse, then the only possible reason to keep Archie in the job is blind loyalty, which some may quite rightly call "sycophancy".

 

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by AndyMac

[Duke Gekantawa]

6 hours ago, AndyMac said:

I too, clapped the team off on Sunday, because I believe that the vast majority of them tried their best; as have Archie & Shaggy.

Nevertheless, we were heavily relying on the old staggers signed by previous management, in a desperate last bid to keep us up. Archie has been in charge for five full seasons, this was the team that Archie built and to be frank, it's a rank rotten team. Furthermore, Archie has had the good fortune to be at the helm during very benign and stable financial circumstances.

Ask your self this question. Is the team that Alan Archibald built over the past five years much better or worse than the one he inherited?

If you think it's much worse, then the only possible reason to keep Archie in the job is blind loyalty, which some may quite rightly call "sycophancy".

 

 

No, but I think the team he built over the first 4 years was much better than the team he inherited, which would have got nowhere near 6th. It’s only this season that it went wrong.

And the direct answer to your question is about the same. I think the team Archie inherited would have finished about 11th this season.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Duke Gekantawa

[Duke Gekantawa]

6 hours ago, Fearchar said:

This expresses it for me: it's essential to want to win every game, but that will to win has been posted missing for years.

For years? We finished 6th last season. 

[Fearchar]

3 hours ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

For years? We finished 6th last season. 

A single season's position doesn't always reflect desire. Other teams can be powder-puff too!

[Lenziejag]

10 hours ago, Fearchar said:

This expresses it for me: it's essential to want to win every game, but that will to win has been posted missing for years.

now that is just patent nonsense given that we got promoted 5 years ago and improved each year culminating in a top 6 finish last year. This year has been bad but I dont understand why you are writing off all the other years achievements.

And if you are just talking about old firm wins or cup success - the lack of those long preceded Alan Archibald as manager.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

For those dinosaurs amongst us can you remember if there was a clamour to sack the manager back in '73 when we finished 13th after winning only four home games? That's rhetorical but I still feel puts our current plight into perspective. If hypothetically we had ended up in 11th place (or 13th if you put the two promoted sides ahead of us) in a league of 16 clubs (as many of us wish) would there be as much gnashing of teeth? Another rhetorical one 

[AndyMac]

7 hours ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

No, but I think the team he built over the first 4 years was much better than the team he inherited, which would have got nowhere near 6th. It’s only this season that it went wrong.

And the direct answer to your question is about the same. I think the team Archie inherited would have finished about 11th this season.

I think that's where we disagree, which is fair enough. What will be will be.

[Auld Jag]

20 hours ago, allyo said:

See this sycophancy argument winds me up.  I didn't want Alan Archibald when McNamara left because I thought it was a sentimental risk. And since then I've backed him only because results have been good. They undeniably have been before this season. If you can't remember many highlights it's your own failure.

The only reason he should be kept on is if a positive decision is made that he's the best person available for the job. I think you can make a decent list of positives and negatives. But I really don't think that anyone would claim that his Thistle playing career should be a factor.

However it is a reason why he should be respected.

Agree with this.I am in no way an Archie can do no wrong person,but when I see fans talking about Kenny Miller as a player manager and also Duffy,if that is the best we can do let Archibald prove he has learned lessons like he said a few weeks ago and also see if he can win us promotion for a second time.It is taking a chance but not as big a chance if we decide we are going to let somebody who is coming to the end of his playing career find out if he is any good as a manager or not.

[flashman]

Where Archie has undoubtably failed is in replacing leaving players with the same or better quality replacements.  Higginbotham was never really replaced on the wing, Welsh (when he wasn't injured and stopped getting caught in possession), Lindsay for example. For all that those who have seen them think that the development boys are, in the main, not ready, I would rather have seen more of them than dud signings, players played out of position etc.