Douglas Rimmer

[jags365]

But minority opinion should still be valued. Certainly it shouldn't be ignored out of hand by people claiming to represent us fans. The blatant irony is that the Jags Trust in itself is a minority.

I don't believe for one minute that this, or any other previous Jags forum for that matter, is representative of fan opinion. Too many threads quickly end up with totally polarised views to suggest otherwise. But that said it's probably every bit if not more representative of fan opinion than that of those who use for want of a better example, a supporters bus.

I agree.

[Mediocre Pundit]

Just in case anyone here doesn't read it:

Remember Clockmonkey?

On the money as always. How good a JT could we have had if we had all the good volunteers at once? What might have been? And how, as a fanbase, can we have gotten it so wrong?

[yoda-jag]

Remember Clockmonkey?

On the money as always. How good a JT could we have had if we had all the good volunteers at once? What might have been? And how, as a fanbase, can we have gotten it so wrong?

 

So true.

[Charlie Endell]

A pretty unfortunate name!

[alx]

Just in case anyone here doesn't read it:

Remember Clockmonkey?

On the money as always. How good a JT could we have had if we had all the good volunteers at once? What might have been? And how, as a fanbase, can we have gotten it so wrong?

 

Blimey! Is that how it works? I fancy standing for election... but I'm a contrary nuisance.

[yoda-jag]

I've also put up a wee bio about myself and have asked others to do the same. This can be found on the 'about' page. Currently trying (with no avail!) to find a suitable photo of myself.

 

5 days on, no other bio's or pics have been added i see.

 

[yoda-jag]

So another 9+ days later, that makes pver 2 whole weeks since jags365 said he had asked the rest of the faceless unaccountables to write a wee bio and upload pics (tho for some of them we really don't need to see some of them, some may say), from those who claim to represent the PTFC support. It's not much to ask, less than 10 minutes and a few bits of info and basic openess, to at least try and show they are lsitening and to even try make one iota of effort to get the support to give them one last chance.

 

Just goes to show those old faceless clingers in the JT just can't be arsed with anything, let alone doing any good for the support and/or club, the contempt they (in past, and continue to) have towards how they treat their members and Thistle support on wider scale, proves to me the JT truly is a dead duck and an embarrassment to the Thistle support, and does nothing to engage either support or club, or try make the relationship between support and club board stronger.

 

Can we just shut down the useless wee private cliquey feeble cartel that is the JT immediately, and move on with a new, active and genuinely representative supporters organisation please.

Edited December 7, 2010 by yoda-jag

[GrantB]

So another 9+ days later, that makes pver 2 whole weeks since jags365 said he had asked the rest of the faceless unaccountables to write a wee bio and upload pics (tho for some of them we really don't need to see some of them, some may say), from those who claim to represent the PTFC support. It's not much to ask, less than 10 minutes and a few bits of info and basic openess, to at least try and show they are lsitening and to even try make one iota of effort to get the support to give them one last chance.

 

Just goes to show those old faceless clingers in the JT just can't be arsed with anything, let alone doing any good for the support and/or club, the contempt they (in past, and continue to) have towards how they treat their members and Thistle support on wider scale, proves to me the JT truly is a dead duck and an embarrassment to the Thistle support, and does nothing to engage either support or club, or try make the relationship between support and club board stronger.

 

Can we just shut down the useless wee private cliquey feeble cartel that is the JT immediately, and move on with a new, active and genuinely representative supporters organisation please.

 

Totally agree. The 'Trust' are a total and utter embarassment to the Jags support.

[B.C.G. JAG]

Technically I'm not on the Trust, as I haven't been formally co-opted on yet at a meeting, so my apologies but you'll need to wait a bit for stuff from me.

 

However, I would like to see the whole Trust Board publish something in the programme so everyone knows who The Trust Board members are. I'd also like some more communication in the form of a quaterly newsletter or something.

 

Visibility is one of the major criticisms of The Trust, and it's one that shouldn't be too difficult to overcome.

[Steven H]

<snip>

the contempt they (in past, and continue to) have towards how they treat their members and Thistle support on wider scale, proves to me the JT truly is a dead duck and an embarrassment to the Thistle support, and does nothing to engage either support or club, or try make the relationship between support and club board stronger.

 

Can we just shut down the useless wee private cliquey feeble cartel that is the JT immediately, and move on with a new, active and genuinely representative supporters organisation please.

 

That is a sad view point imo, are those 3 'The Trust' now? Who are you asking to shut it down? What support on a wider scale? There is no wide scale representation because the JT has no wide scale support from the Thistle support (as membership numbers prove), the people who can shut it down are the members, and, if BCG Jags vote of no confidence thingy is still to generate the mere 10% of the membership it needs, I think that tells it's own story about the Trust membership as a whole (or at least those who post on here).

 

Simple solution in my eyes, lets work together to oust those we don't want representing us. Lets get the guys n gals we want in there and then lets support them and get involved where we can. The Trust is not dead yet, there is a solid foundation there to build on but shouting from the sidelines about it being a dead duck is pointless.

 

Totally agree. The 'Trust' are a total and utter embarassment to the Jags support.

 

The Jags support could be described as a total and utter embarassment for allowing the Trust to become a total and utter embarassment Grant, that includes you, me and every other person who claims to support Thistle. How can 3 women hold so much power that an organisation the size of the Jags Trust can be brought to this level without so much as a fight? No-one fights their corner and, as the 2 spates of resignations show, would rather tuck tail and run (admittedly to other ventures in the case of some). That shouldn't be taken as harshly as it sounds, but that is the cold hard truth is it not?

[GrantB]

The Jags support could be described as a total and utter embarassment for allowing the Trust to become a total and utter embarassment Grant, that includes you, me and every other person who claims to support Thistle. How can 3 women hold so much power that an organisation the size of the Jags Trust can be brought to this level without so much as a fight? No-one fights their corner and, as the 2 spates of resignations show, would rather tuck tail and run (admittedly to other ventures in the case of some). That shouldn't be taken as harshly as it sounds, but that is the cold hard truth is it not?

 

The common denominator in all the Trust board resignations has been the inability to get anything done (mainly caused by the NW 3) What I wanthed to see is no one being co-opted on to the Trust board thus forcing change.

 

All the people who have agreed to be co-opted on to the Trust board have done is prop up these people and allow the Trust to become even more of a laughing stock. It is shameful.

[B.C.G. JAG]

The common denominator in all the Trust board resignations has been the inability to get anything done (mainly caused by the NW 3) What I wanthed to see is no one being co-opted on to the Trust board thus forcing change.

 

All the people who have agreed to be co-opted on to the Trust board have done is prop up these people and allow the Trust to become even more of a laughing stock. It is shameful.

 

I'm not intending to prop anyone up. However let's look at a couple of things here. Not so long ago I started a thread looking for ideas on democratic reform of The Trust. I didn't get any ideas or suggestions. I started a thread looking for volunteers for a fundraiser. Over 700 odd people looked at the thread, but not one single person volunteered. I started a thread looking to gather the 10% of names needed to force an EGM and a vote of no confidence. It only managed half the required amount. That list is still open, I'm passing on the names to others to keep it going, but in all truth it doesn't look like a viable way forward.

 

Believe me, I'm a pretty reluctant volunteer. Like everyone else, I have actually got better things to be doing with my time. However, what is clear is that the Vote Of No Confidence has little or no momentum behind it, and simply ignoring The Trust won't solve anything. The Trust will still have a big shareholding in the Club and even fewer people will be left in control of it, accountable to even fewer people.

 

A few people have posted that they would support another fan's organisation if one came into being, and some folk, most notably Willijag as well as Stolenscone and Honved have tried to rally some troops to pull together for the good of the Club. Granted, I'm full of the cold and feeling pretty miserable right now, but I'll hazard a guess that their efforts have been met with similar enthusiasm to my own efforts. About the only success story I can think of recently is this forum's users sponsoring a shirt and a pair of boots.

 

This isn't a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" - I sincerely hope to persuade the Trust Board that there is a need for public ratification. I also hope that if that doesn't happen then enough people will force the Board to account via an EGM. But we are where we are. The Club is dying on it's arse, and we need to get on with raising some money to support it. We also need to negotiate our way back into the Boardroom. Folding our collective arms and occasionally harumphing isn't going to achieve anything.

 

The Trust is in a pretty sorry state, but the support is in an even more sorry state. It's possibly a catch 22 - too many people have been put off The Trust and now there isn't enough energy left to do anything with it. If that's the case then we might as well pack up and go home.

 

So seriously folks, unfold your arms, stand up tall and do something positive. Start an alternative Trust if you want, stand outside the JHS and try and gather more names for an EGM, volunteer for my musical fundraiser idea, send me some ideas on how to reform The Trust, contact Willijag to do some volunteer work with him, contact Stolenscone or Honved about selling 50/50 tickets. Do something other than harumphing, otherwise we might all be looking back and wishing we had done a teeny weeny bit more when we knew that the Club was struggling. The apathy within our support is shameful. We can't all wait for someone else to sort it out.

Edited December 8, 2010 by B.C.G. JAG

[GrantB]

I'm not intending to prop anyone up. However let's look at a couple of things here. Not so long ago I started a thread looking for ideas on democratic reform of The Trust. I didn't get any ideas or suggestions. I started a thread looking for volunteers for a fundraiser. Over 700 odd people looked at the thread, but not one single person volunteered. I started a thread looking to gather the 10% of names needed to force an EGM and a vote of no confidence. It only managed half the required amount. That list is still open, I'm passing on the names to others to keep it going, but in all truth it doesn't look like a viable way forward.

 

Believe me, I'm a pretty reluctant volunteer. Like everyone else, I have actually got better things to be doing with my time. However, what is clear is that the Vote Of No Confidence has little or no momentum behind it, and simply ignoring The Trust won't solve anything. The Trust will still have a big shareholding in the Club and even fewer people will be left in control of it, accountable to even fewer people.

 

A few people have posted that they would support another fan's organisation if one came into being, and some folk, most notably Willijag as well as Stolenscone and Honved have tried to rally some troops to pull together for the good of the Club. Granted, I'm full of the cold and feeling pretty miserable right now, but I'll hazard a guess that their efforts have been met with similar enthusiasm to my own efforts. About the only success story I can think of recently is this forum's users sponsoring a shirt and a pair of boots.

 

This isn't a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" - I sincerely hope to persuade the Trust Board that there is a need for public ratification. I also hope that if that doesn't happen then enough people will force the Board to account via an EGM. But we are where we are. The Club is dying on it's arse, and we need to get on with raising some money to support it. We also need to negotiate our way back into the Boardroom. Folding our collective arms and occasionally harumphing isn't going to achieve anything.

 

The Trust is in a pretty sorry state, but the support is in an even more sorry state. It's possibly a catch 22 - too many people have been put off The Trust and now there isn't enough energy left to do anything with it. If that's the case then we might as well pack up and go home.

 

So seriously folks, unfold your arms, stand up tall and do something positive. Start an alternative Trust if you want, stand outside the JHS and try and gather more names for an EGM, volunteer for my musical fundraiser idea, send me some ideas on how to reform The Trust, contact Willijag to do some volunteer work with him, contact Stolenscone or Honved about selling 50/50 tickets. Do something other than harumphing, otherwise we might all be looking back and wishing we had done a teeny weeny bit more when we knew that the Club was struggling. The apathy within our support is shameful. We can't all wait for someone else to sort it out.

 

BCG, I should have made it clear that I wasn't thinking about you when I made my post about the co-optees. I'm well aware that you are trying to get enough names to force the EGM the majority of people (I hope) want to see.

 

If I was in the trust, you would have had my name.

[B.C.G. JAG]

BCG, I should have made it clear that I wasn't thinking about you when I made my post about the co-optees. I'm well aware that you are trying to get enough names to force the EGM the majority of people (I hope) want to see.

 

If I was in the trust, you would have had my name.

This forum is a strange place - there is a lot of potential here for fans to make The Trust what they want it to be, but momentum never gathers much pace. It's like Steven H's poll not so long ago about representation. A lot of people looked at the thread, but very few actually went to the lengths of clicking the mouse button to vote. It's really difficult to gauge all those people are thinking. However, people do seem to read the forum judging by the numbers, so the silent majority need to speak up now. The Trust will only ever be what WE make it. As had been said ealier, we're all complicit in it's failings.

 

I'd just urge anyone with some positive reform or fundraising ideas to get in touch.

[Tom Hosie]

This forum is a strange place - there is a lot of potential here for fans to make The Trust what they want it to be,

I'd just urge anyone with some positive reform or fundraising ideas to get in touch.

 

Thing is BCG Jag it’s the Trust that needs to take the lead.

 

I don’t believe that people are apathetic about Partick Thistle. There is a danger in reading too much into what is, and what isn’t, said on internet forums.

 

If the Trust or another fans’ organisation, formal or informal, can take the lead then people will follow and people will get involved. The Trust though has always being far too embroiled in the politics of the football club. To the detriment of everything else. It forgot that it was, first and foremost, the Supporters’ Association.

 

First it was shares, shares, shares and now it is Board Rep, Board Rep, Board Rep.

 

Forget about that. Don’t try negotiating your way back into the boardroom. Concentrate on becoming so important to the well being of our football club that it becomes impossible to be kept off the Board. Save the Jags was, what, 13 years ago? The goodwill from that has long since been used up. Try and earn a seat round the boardroom table.

 

There are people out there crying out who are looking for a fans’ organisation worthy of their support. I’m one of them.

[B.C.G. JAG]

Concentrate on becoming so important to the well being of our football club that it becomes impossible to be kept off the Board. Save the Jags was, what, 13 years ago? The goodwill from that has long since been used up. Try and earn a seat round the boardroom table.

 

 

[MerryHell]

This isn't a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" - I sincerely hope to persuade the Trust Board that there is a need for public ratification. I also hope that if that doesn't happen then enough people will force the Board to account via an EGM. But we are where we are. The Club is dying on it's arse, and we need to get on with raising some money to support it. We also need to negotiate our way back into the Boardroom. Folding our collective arms and occasionally harumphing isn't going to achieve anything.The Trust is in a pretty sorry state, but the support is in an even more sorry state.

 

Do something other than harumphing, otherwise we might all be looking back and wishing we had done a teeny weeny bit more when we knew that the Club was struggling. The apathy within our support is shameful. We can't all wait for someone else to sort it out.

 

 

Thing is BCG Jag it’s the Trust that needs to take the lead. I don’t believe that people are apathetic about Partick Thistle. There is a danger in reading too much into what is, and what isn’t, said on internet forums. If the Trust or another fans’ organisation, formal or informal, can take the lead then people will follow and people will get involved. The Trust though has always being far too embroiled in the politics of the football club. To the detriment of everything else. There are people out there crying out who are looking for a fans’ organisation worthy of their support. I’m one of them.

 

 

It's not the club that the fans are apathetic about - it's the Jags Trust. Support for the Trust is dwindling, but give us something worth rallying round and we will. 50/50 tickets will get sold, as will the club calender, will any of these be sold from the Jags Trust stall? Anyone on the Trust Board volunteered to help with selling either? I'd hazard a guess at NO.

 

How long do you think it's going to take to encourage change from within when others have failed over years? Today you tell us you haven't even been officailly co-opted to the board yet because they've not had a meeting. It is staggering.

 

BCG - you will not get enough votes for an EGM because the majority of JT members have no longer got confidence in it as an organisation. The Trust board had good people on it (on more than one occasion) who wanted change, and enthused people to join, only to be stiffled. Next year will be see an all time low in JT membership.

 

IMO, being co-opted to the board would be as usefull as doing nothing. Your voice will be insignificant as will any ideas you put forward as long as those that have created the roadblock remain. If any fundraising ideas come to fruition, you will struggle for support from the greater fanbase because, and only because, they will be held under the banner of the Trust. If we have to wait until next summer to replace them, your suggestion to get out and do something without them is the best advice we can take from your post. I encourage you to do likewise.

[MerryHell]

Technically I'm not on the Trust, as I haven't been formally co-opted on yet at a meeting, so my apologies but you'll need to wait a bit for stuff from me.

 

Can anyone explain how Douglas Rimmer can officially be on the board but BCG Jag isn't yet? This isn't a dig at DR, just wondering how one new member gets onto the board and a 'My first 5 days' article, when another (more critical) person has to wait.

[B.C.G. JAG]

Can anyone explain how Douglas Rimmer can officially be on the board but BCG Jag isn't yet? This isn't a dig at DR, just wondering how one new member gets onto the board and a 'My first 5 days' article, when another (more critical) person has to wait.

It's just a timing thing - when Douglas was co-opted and was able to attend a meeting that same week. I came on just after that meeting so am still in limbo as it were.

 

I get what you are saying, however I hope that if there were good fundraising ideas from anyone be that Trust or not, that Thistle fans would come out to support them. We really can't afford to be so picky and choosy when we're raising money for the club. On one hand, there is criticism of The Trust for being too political and getting hung up on shares and Reps and not doing enough fundraising. On the other hand, people are saying they would be too political themselves and support fundraising by anyone other than the Trust. In the end, not an awful lot happens except a few heads needing bandaged after repeatedly striking the wall. I think we need to stop being quite so fickle about how we support the Club. If you think an event sounds good then put your politics to the side and attend it. But Firhill's sake, don't make your reason for not attending be who organised it, that's just cutting your nose off to spite your face.

[stolenscone]

We really can't afford to be so picky and choosy when we're raising money for the club.

 

 

Are we? I support the idea of fan involvement at board level, but one of the issues that I had latterally on the Trust was the unwillingness to stand full square behind the very simple idea of passing money raised over to the Club unless and until the board rep issue was resolved to the Trust's liking.

 

You can do that if you have tens of thousands of pounds in the wings and have proven yourself to be indispensible to the Club's finances. If you try it when you are occassionally persuaded to chip in a thousand pounds for a player here and there (and even then, reluctantly), you'll get laughed out of the room, which is pretty much what happened. It led me to question, if supporters' association wasn't committed to raising money to support the Club, what was it for? I still don't know the answer to that question.

 

But you're right, Bob. There is a stoney silence any time folk are asked to come along to events / help to organise them. Like Kevin Costner, I naively thought that if you put on a series of well run and fun events, then eventually by word of mouth, more people would be inclined to turn up. Personally, I thought that events like the race night, quizz night and meet the manager nights were pretty well run and quite enjoyable, but it's still the same handfull of folk that pitch up every time. Say what you like about the NW Bus, but at the very least, they showed up in numbers. How to engage with everyone else? I don't know, but it's looking increasingly like a lost cause to me. I'd be delighted to be proven wrong.

[Fellow Traveller]

Side issue now, but I'll continue to argue that getting shares from the club made sense at the time. It shouldn't even have been controversial and was never used by anyone as an excuse not to do anything. I believe in fans making an investment rather than just a donation, even if the difference is largely symbolic. End result was always that the club got the money, which was the whole point, but I've always been proud of my share certificate in a frame on the wall and anything that binds people closer to the club has to be a good thing. Anyway, moving on...

 

I rejoined the Trust on Nov 5th. As of Sunday, Dec 5th, still haven't heard a peep out of them, had an acknowledgement by post or email nor a member pack. Zilch. Only an email from PayPal to prove it wasn't all a weird dream. Even within their incredibly limited scope of current operations, the duck is dead.

 

The big problem the Trust presents now is that its rotting corpse is still stinking up the joint and giving people a reason to ***** about or clutch at straws and not actually do anything. And the club has just shrugged and moved on, as they are quite entitled to do. High time we did the same.

[B.C.G. JAG]

Out of curiosity, what would make the Trust more palatable to people? A Board representing different fans (st holders, buses, forums?), more regular feedback from the Trust - say a quaterly newsletter? Innovative fundraising ideas? What do people want to specifically see? This should be an easy question to answer but the unhappiness with The Trust manifests itself in different ways and there doesn't seem to be much consensus as to what would move it forward from here.

Edited December 9, 2010 by B.C.G. JAG

[Steven H]

Im one ofthose who is unwilling to give up on the idea of the Trust Supporters Association has a potentially positive organisation, but I am slightly hypocritical due to a few factors. I am not in a position to offer as much time to the cause right now, I'm as pi55ed off with the current situation as most others and (after rejoining a couple of years ago) I have received next to nothin by way of information from the Trust.

 

Guilty secret time: When I rejoined I filled in the form online with my own details, my wife has a paypal account so I used that to pay the fee. End result? My wife is the named member. When this first came to light, a couple of months after I rejoined, I contacted Allan Heron about this and he contacted the membership secretary on my behalf. The membership secretary never changed the details. I contacted the membership secretary myself and still nothing was changed and still I recieved no info other than what Tom, David etc posted on here or on the Trust website. I attended the recent-ish AGM and meet the manager night only to dicover my name wasn't down (for a brief moment I thought I wasn't getting in). Anyway, after explaining who I was and the reason my name wasn't there (but my wife's name was) I was once again reassured by the membership secretary the she would sort it.

 

Today, nothing has changed.

 

A small thing perhaps, but it's a small thing that a certain 'it's coz she's a woman' person can't even sort. As part of the 3 who seem to be relentless in driving the people they claim to represent away I find it ignorant yet unsurprising and, by rights, I should be telling the Trust to stick their membership up their ceeky winker. I haven't done so because I feel that would be slightly like seeing the membership secretary and her pals as the Trust itself. They aren't the Trust and they aren't untouchable.

 

I would say to Grant B (and folk of similar mindset) to join the Trust and put your name to Bob's list. I don't know how much difference it's lkely to make but I feel the only way we will get the Trust goin in the right direction AGAIN is to remove certain members of the Board. It's pretty clear the people in question are unwilling to leave therefore they need to be forced out, if that happened then Id like to think thee would be ample fans with the ability to take their places (many of those have JTB experience and are spoken of highly on here). But it's another one of those circular arguements isn't it .

 

For my part, it's likely that I will remain a member for now, but if certain changes aren't made then I wont be renewing next year...which is ironic because next year is the one I ear marked for getting more involved.

[Willjag]

Out of curiosity, what would make the Trust more palatable to people? A Board representing different fans (st holders, buses, forums?), more regular feedback from the Trust - say a quaterly newsletter? Innovative fundraising ideas? What do people want to specifically see? This should be an easy question to answer but the unhappiness with The Trust manifests itself in different ways and there doesn't seem to be much consensus as to what would move it forward from here.

I'd like to see a Trust that manages the fans shares, and nothing else.

[Jagtastic]

Can anyone explain how Douglas Rimmer can officially be on the board but BCG Jag isn't yet? This isn't a dig at DR, just wondering how one new member gets onto the board and a 'My first 5 days' article, when another (more critical) person has to wait.

 

BCG Jag said he hasn't been to a meeting to be officially co-opted on yet, perhaps DR has?

 

Edit: Just noticed BCG replied to this

Edited December 9, 2010 by Jagtastic