A Final Appeal For The Union

[The Devil's Point]

We are being offered what we want, and we didn't need to riot in Manchester to get it.

 

The change on the table is real and substantial. Lets not be fools, lets just take it. We will not get the chance again.

 

No one loves Scotland more than me, but our nation will be better served by the politics of common sense and democracy than they ever will be by the politics of Nationalim.

 

There must be welfare reform (including abolishing the bedroom tax), just like there must be an end to the West Lothian question.

 

But the few of 1939 didn't go up for this. Churchill said it was our finest hour, and that should be respected now.

 

My great uncle ran into machine gun fire at the Somme, and I am proud to be Brittish tonight.

 

Mon the Jags, and the Union.

[scottandkim123]

we're not getting anything mate, westminster mps are coming out saying they will reject all proposals regarding more powers for scotland.

as someone said on one of the tv debates we are already living the no vote

[Lionel J. Botch]

Give me 3 guaranteed changes and I'll change my vote. Not changes back bench MPs have promised, but 3 guaranteed constitutional changes, proposed, agreed through parliament and through the lords that are on the table for us. Nope none... Ok.

 

Give me any that have not already been opposed by MPs from all parties. Nope, none... Ok

 

 

[Norgethistle]

Give me 3 guaranteed changes and I'll change my vote. Not changes back bench MPs have promised, but 3 guaranteed constitutional changes, proposed, agreed through parliament and through the lords that are on the table for us. Nope none... Ok.

 

Give me any that have not already been opposed by MPs from all parties. Nope, none... Ok

 

Give me 3 things that are guaranteed from the white paper,

 

currency.... no,

EU..... no,

more jobs........ no,

 

I could go on all night

[Lionel J. Botch]

Please go on all night and use your vote wisely.............

 

This is the problem with the no campaign. Someone has asked to us to take this opportunity with both hands. I was asking what it was.

 

I am not a passionate yesser. I was in Glasgow today and I was approached at a no thanks stand for a discussion. I simply asked to give me the benefits and I was told about what the other side had promised that they cannot guarantee. I asked them to park the other side and to win my vote. Nothing. Got some rehash of income tax etc and I asked if this was constitutionally sound. They conceded it was not, like the other side it is aspirational. Then the conversation went back into "ah but they say this and that". They did not get the fact I was prepared for them to win my vote, not scare me into the status quo.

[macaroon]

devil, with respect to your grandfather that was 75 years ago! If Scotland had been independent would it not have stood against the Nazis? Please vote yes, seize it with both hands, be brave.

[macaroon]

sorry great uncle but still

[kni]

devil, with respect to your grandfather that was 75 years ago! If Scotland had been independent would it not have stood against the Nazis? Please vote yes, seize it with both hands, be brave.

 

That is a matter for debate. It has been alleged that SNP Leader, Arthur Donaldson, planned to set up a "Quisling" or "Vichy" government if the Nazis successfully invaded Britain.

 

This link has another serious allegation.

 

"Andrew Dewar Gibb QC, who was one of the country's top lawyers, met messengers from Hitler's regime keen to ally themselves with Scotland, a new book claims.

 

"Dewar Gibb, who was a known admirer of right-wing leaders such as the Italian fascist dictator Mussolini, became chairman of the newly-formed Scottish National Party in 1936 and held the post until 1940.

 

"The details of his Nazi dealings are revealed in the book Independent, Free - Scottish Politics And The SNP by Strathclyde University lecturer Dr Richard Finlay."

[Willjag]

The Somme was actually 98 years ago!

[jlsarmy]

 

 

That is a matter for debate. It has been alleged that SNP Leader, Arthur Donaldson, planned to set up a "Quisling" or "Vichy" government if the Nazis successfully invaded Britain.

 

This link has another serious allegation.

 

"Andrew Dewar Gibb QC, who was one of the country's top lawyers, met messengers from Hitler's regime keen to ally themselves with Scotland, a new book claims.

 

"Dewar Gibb, who was a known admirer of right-wing leaders such as the Italian fascist dictator Mussolini, became chairman of the newly-formed Scottish National Party in 1936 and held the post until 1940.

 

"The details of his Nazi dealings are revealed in the book Independent, Free - Scottish Politics And The SNP by Strathclyde University lecturer Dr Richard Finlay."

With all due respect , what relevance has that got to do with the Yes/No vote tomorrow , I'm voting Yes tomorrow so that my children and grand children have at least got a shot of a better future . In the circumstances just now no government is going to pre negotiate anything , in fact if there is a Yes vote some of the rule book will have to be rewritten , whether that's the currency union etc , as there hasn't really been a precedent , think the same will apply to the Eu membership . Britain is a diluted democracy just now , think there is one Tory mp in the whole of Scotland but we are still governed by a Tory government . Hopefully tomorrow people will be brave and realise that we can make our own future .

[kni]

With all due respect , what relevance has that got to do with the Yes/No vote tomorrow , I'm voting Yes tomorrow so that my children and grand children have at least got a shot of a better future . In the circumstances just now no government is going to pre negotiate anything , in fact if there is a Yes vote some of the rule book will have to be rewritten , whether that's the currency union etc , as there hasn't really been a precedent , think the same will apply to the Eu membership . Britain is a diluted democracy just now , think there is one Tory mp in the whole of Scotland but we are still governed by a Tory government . Hopefully tomorrow people will be brave and realise that we can make our own future .

 

I respect your view but the EU's rules are rigid and non-negotiable as they must ensure that all Member States obey them. The "rule book" can only be re-written, i.e. the Treaties re-negotiated, with the unanimous agreement of all Member States. Anything else is fantasy or wishful thinking.

 

It's Labour, not the Tories, that have most to lose from a Yes vote tomorrow as they would lose over 40 MPs in the Commons. Scottish independence would help the Tories retain control of rUK. However, the downside of the SNP is that the Tories would dictate the terms of an unlikely currency union and could pass laws to thwart Sterling-isation.

 

Raw political power, not romantic ideals or ideology, will determine the future of Scotland. The EU and rUK will have more power than the Yes Campaign dares to admit to. A Yes vote will only be the start of a bloody and brutal war for independence. If you think that rUK will simply give Salmond what he wants, think again. There are many political careers at stake and no prisoners will be taken.

[Meister Jag]

I think kni makes an interesting point; but (if this makes sense) that was then and this is now. The SNP appears to have got rid of its rabid element and does appear to be a genuine liberal social-democratic party. Arguably this transformation was necessary for the 'project' to be able to be palatable to the electorate; basically to pick up disaffected Labour voters and few other stragglers. If they have extremists in their ranks, they keep them well hidden. But truth be told, I think they are the one trick pony that they claim to be. Independence at all costs... just another neo-liberal party making a pitch for power. Whoever gets in, we get a low-wage economy where big business gets to call the shots.

 

I've said it before, but once the dust settles, there will be no additional money in the pay packets of those on the minimum wage, no increase in the £2.65 modern apprentice rate and no hint of widespread nationalisation. The foregoing is just for starters... Indeed, here we have two sides of an argument both presenting the electorate with policies that could have been formulated by Thatcher and her cronies. We have come a long way... a society were we worry about borders and national identity (nationalism) over providing a better life for all (internationalism). As a supposedly left-leaning nation, I think we've taken our eye off the game; or have we simply forgotten what the game was all about?

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

You can only have hope for the future,

But can study and learn from the past.

 

It's not an election,

or choice of direction,

but a question of what's you're conviction.

 

To make a life with some uknown?

Or save a life with whom you've grown?

 

Whatever your answer,

There's no place for chancers.

Grit's needed allied or alone.

[Rid Skwerr]

Nelson Mandela said -

"May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears."

 

As I see it,

 

"hopes" = YES

 

"fears" = NO

 

I shall vote accordingly......

[potty trained]

http://youtu.be/f8XIeAZEWYM

[kni]

^ So should the huge debts of Scottish banks (RBS, Lloyds etc) be devolved or taken on by an independent Scotland too? Why should rUK's taxpayers pay for Fred Goodwin's acquisition disasters? IHO, they should have gone bust, i.e. into admin or liquidation, like Sevco.

[ScottyDFA]

The debts of "Scottish" banks should have been taken on by the shareholders in those publicly-listed, internationally-owned businesses.

 

Does Devil's Point have some words of comfort relating to the Union for the families and friends of Scottish military personnel killed in Iraq? - a war an independent Scotland would never have been involved in.

[javeajag]

 

 

I respect your view but the EU's rules are rigid and non-negotiable as they must ensure that all Member States obey them. The "rule book" can only be re-written, i.e. the Treaties re-negotiated, with the unanimous agreement of all Member States. Anything else is fantasy or wishful thinking.

 

It's Labour, not the Tories, that have most to lose from a Yes vote tomorrow as they would lose over 40 MPs in the Commons. Scottish independence would help the Tories retain control of rUK. However, the downside of the SNP is that the Tories would dictate the terms of an unlikely currency union and could pass laws to thwart Sterling-isation.

 

Raw political power, not romantic ideals or ideology, will determine the future of Scotland. The EU and rUK will have more power than the Yes Campaign dares to admit to. A Yes vote will only be the start of a bloody and brutal war for independence. If you think that rUK will simply give Salmond what he wants, think again. There are many political careers at stake and no prisoners will be taken.

A YES vote changes the game....Scotland will be in the EU because we are actually IN the EU today....it took East Germany 6 months to get in and with our fish, oil, renewables nobody wants us outside

The thing about the NO campaign is they have no vision for Scotland or the UK.....you build a future on fear and negativity

[kni]

A YES vote changes the game....Scotland will be in the EU because we are actually IN the EU today....it took East Germany 6 months to get in and with our fish, oil, renewables nobody wants us outside The thing about the NO campaign is they have no vision for Scotland or the UK.....you build a future on fear and negativity

 

That's utter nonsense. East Germany did not join the EU as an independent Member State. It unified with an existing Member State, the then West Germany on 3 October 1990. All the other Eastern European states had to apply under the terms of the EU's Treaties.

 

The European Commission has made several official statements, including letters to the Scottish Parliament. They state clearly that Scotland, by leaving the UK, will leave the UK and have to apply for Membership under article 49 of the Treaty of the European Union. The Yes campaign have repeated continually the lie that Scotland will not have to go through that process. The EU will not dare to enrage the Spanish who will do anything to stop Catalonia seceding. The Spanish PM has made his country's position very clear - Scotland will have to apply via Article 49.

 

ETA - In the end, it was the prospect of leaving the EU (despite the SNP's lies) that convinced me to favour independence. There is no chance that Westminster will allow an independent Scotland to keep the Pound so Scotland will have to have its own currency in place on Independence Day. The West Lothian question will finally be dealt with after Blair, Brown and Cameron's prevarication. The ridiculous and out-dated Barnett formula will be dead in the water immediately after a Yes vote too.

 

Another benefit of a Yes vote is that Cameron, Clegg and Miliband's leadership will be challenged by their MPs who will be livid if the Union breaks up. It is possible, or even likely, that the Coalition will collapse soon with a General Election being called after a formal vote of no confidence in the Commons. Salmond will have to negotiate with a new PM with a mandate to be hard and tough. The next few months could be an entertaining political bloodbath that will finish the careers of all the useless party leaders. Bring it on!

Edited September 18, 2014 by kni

[i@n]

The next few months could be an entertaining political bloodbath that will finish the careers of all the useless party leaders. Bring it on!

And who can we look forward to taking their place? Serious question. I've no idea. Who do you think would be cream of the crop?

[Garscube Road End]

Dont see much in LibConDems or Labour. But the Tories? Boris Johnston.

[kni]

And who can we look forward to taking their place? Serious question. I've no idea. Who do you think would be cream of the crop?

 

The Conservatives - Boris Johnson (if in the Commons) or Theresa May if Boris cant stand. George Osborne will stand but would struggle to get enough support to make a serious challenge. He could be a finalist (chosen by MPs) if Boris can't stand.

 

Labour - Ed Balls or Yvette Cooper will challenge Harriet Harman. UNITE's block vote could decide the contest again.

 

Lib Dems - Tim Farron to beat Vince Cable or Simon Hughes. Ed Davey is a possible outsider.

 

 

ETA - it is possible William Hague could lead the Conservatives temporarily and act as a "caretaker "PM until the General Election. He was a key player in negotiating the Coalition Agreement and is retiring from politics at the election. This would be the best option for Boris who could stand after re-entering the Commons.

Edited September 18, 2014 by kni

[The Devil's Point]

Heart goes out to the Yes campaigners tonight. You totally out-campaigned us, and in many ways didn't deserve to lose.

 

But you will have your time. We will keep our promises, and it you think we fail, then you will get the chance again.

 

It has been intense and emotional, and someone had to lose.

 

No one deserved to lose though.

[Jaggernaut]

_{Congratulations to the "no" campaigners. I just feel disappointed that the FUDs (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) were able to pull the wool over enough people's eyes. Not to mention the blatant lies about bombing airports, people not getting their pensions, not being able to watch the BBC and so on. A dreadful campaign by "no", .... but it was enough!}

 

_{On the positive side, the difference between the sides is only around the population of a city around the size of Dundee. When people see through the lies and empty promises from Westminster this time, and many of the old empire-age Brit pensioners will no longer be with us, the next referendum may well go very differently. Fingers crossed.}

[Jaggernaut]

Heart goes out to the Yes campaigners tonight. You totally out-campaigned us, and in many ways didn't deserve to lose.

 

But you will have your time. We will keep our promises, and it you think we fail, then you will get the chance again.

 

It has been intense and emotional, and someone had to lose.

 

No one deserved to lose though.

 

Out of interest, TDP, in spite of the impressive YES campaign, why do you think that the "no" vote prevailed?