kennymac29 Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Thanks Kenny. Is an emergency facility at the discretion of the bank, with, as you say interest rates, sky high? I wouldn't think the 2015 accounts will be published until the Agm which last year was in October. Do the accounts define non football and football expenditure when it comes to staff numbers and wages etc? Whilst St Mirren for example separate them, I'm sure Thistle lump everything into a generalised basket. They do separate the number of playing and non playing staff for staff numbers however they dont split the expenditure so you cant see whether the 100% increase in staff costs was attributed to staff or players! the number from the previous year for playing staff remained at 22 whilst 2 additional non playing staff were taken on the year we were promoted. again though, 2014 data which is now well out of date. In terms of the bank overdraft fees i maybe spoke out of turn as i dont have the available information but whilst some of us are charged a set fee for using an overdraft, when it comes to companies the banks prefer to use interest rates as it obviously makes them more money. the rate would be dependant on the size of the facility and if we have a small facility available then i would guess that it would be at a premium rate. However thats just my opinion and maybe complete rubbish. Edited September 20, 2015 by kennymac29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Danny Lennon on the face of it would do a better job than Archibald. But, looking at the way we are playing so would Ally McCoist. All right, Danny Lennon.... St. Mirren 2010-14 win% - 27,93, Currently in charge of Alloa. survived through the play offs they currently sit in 9th place in the championship having 4 points with one victory over 7th place dumbarton. Alan Archibald - Partick Thistle 2013 - present win% - 32.11 .... Interesting shout. e.t.a --- changed from promoted Edited September 20, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 They do separate the number of playing and non playing staff for staff numbers however they dont split the expenditure so you cant see whether the 100% increase in staff costs was attributed to staff or players! the number from the previous year for playing staff remained at 22 whilst 2 additional non playing staff were taken on the year we were promoted. again though, 2014 data which is now well out of date. In terms of the bank overdraft fees i maybe spoke out of turn as i dont have the available information but whilst some of us are charged a set fee for using an overdraft, when it comes to companies the banks prefer to use interest rates as it obviously makes them more money. the rate would be dependant on the size of the facility and if we have a small facility available then i would guess that it would be at a premium rate. However thats just my opinion and maybe complete rubbish. A business overdraft of c 25k comes in at roughly 5.5%. Obviously you only pay for what you use. JAF will have a view on the accounts etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Have you seen any signs of progress or improvement over our 9 competitive games this season? Cerny is the only concrete answer. I do see some potential. Booth is maybe proving to be a better player than i thought he might be. However, beyond the results ( which i absolutely agree are the most important thing ) I do not see a total colapse or a hopeless squad. What signs of progress/improvements are you seeking? I'm of a mind that 8th was something we would struggle this season to repeat. Not that I ain't frustrated at our difficulties in raising the standard, but 10th or better will do me. I'm of the opinion, the chat of europe, even the spanish pre-season last year was done on the crest of a -we-survived-therefore-we-will-push-on-now wave of over expectation and excitement. Two top flight seasons does not an established top flight club make. I really hope we can climb, pull something out of the bag, but I've braced myself for at least 4-5 years of nervy uncertainty and flirting with relegation before looking for some big push for any appreciable or significant progress like top 6, europe or cup success. I blame scottish football as a whole for our plight as much as our own club specifically. The rewards from promotion are not so great as to encourage anything other than a gamble on the very existance of your club. .... Batten down the hatches, our little ship is in stormy waters, let's ry and navigate through them with a little loss as possible i say. Edited September 20, 2015 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Cerny is the only concrete answer. I do see some potential. Booth is maybe proving to be a better player than i thought he might be. However, beyond the results ( which i absolutely agree are the most important thing ) I do not see a total colapse or a hopeless squad. What signs of progress/improvements are you seeking? I'm of a mind that 8th was something we would struggle this season to repeat. Not that I ain't frustrated at our difficulties in raising the standard, but 10th or better will do me. I'm of the opinion, the chat of europe, even the spanish pre-season last year was done on the crest of a -we-survived-therefore-we-will-push-on-now wave of over expectation and excitement. Two top flight seasons does not an established top flight club make. I really hope we can climb, pull something out of the bag, but I've braced myself for at least 4-5 years of nervy uncertainty and flirting with relegation before looking for some big push for any appreciable or significant progress like top 6, europe or cup success. I blame scottish football as a whole for our plight as much as our own club specifically. The rewards from promotion are not so great as to encourage anything other than a gamble on the very existance of your club. .... Batten down the hatches, our little ship is in stormy waters, let's ry and navigate through them with a little loss as possible i say. Why would anyone expect an improvement on 8th place after 9 games? we have a new goalkeeper. A whole new defence and new midfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 We have to assume that at some point, the academy will yield success. This could be 2-3 seasons away. That's why survival is important. That money can then be used to pay down debt/increase budget. It's a gamble. Or you could take the hit, get relegated, play the young guys, sell a few, keep your fingers crossed we find a team. It's a gamble. In short, we need a bit of luck imo. I think the success of the academy is dependent on us staying in the top league. It's a great concept but it is up to the club to make it happen. We need to stay up for that to be sustainable and the fact that Archie for the third season running has had to go beyond the window to get reinforcements is troubling. Ideally we should have the bulk of the reinforcements in by the time pre-season starts. That does not seem to be the Jags' way of conducting business. I can understand that we don't want to over speculate to accumulate, but the concept of at least organizing ourselves to be competitive seems to be sorely lacking at Board level. This pre-season and transfer window, allied with the on-field results, seems to have been the worst of the three that we have been in the top division so far. Taken together (preparation and results to date), that is seriously alarming. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMac Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 If Archibald isn't the man - maybe he is, maybe he isn't - for the job, then why not Ian McCall? He's back in management and left a job unfinished at Firhill. And he signed the player commonly agreed to be our best in many years - Kris Doolan. Ian McCall (IMO) was a very good manager for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Ian McCall (IMO) was a very good manager for us Maybe so, but he left in strange circumstances. I hope he has control of his demons but i wouldn't want him anywhere near Firhill. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrshire jag Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 He won't be back, like you say Colin hope he does well at Ayr. Not that I'm advocating a change but one name that hasn't been mentioned is Steven Presseley, not sure if he is working for SFA since leaving Coventry. AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindau Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I like Ian McCall and he helped us turn a big corner, but he has had his era at Firhill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashman Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Do you genuinely believe changing the formation is going to see us climb the table? That's how simple it is? Completely change the ethos, training, you name it. Change everything we do on the park... But keep the same players, and everything will be ok? Say we change formation, change tactics etc... How long do you give the squad to settle and get used to a new way of working? You're asking them to change their way of working, do you think it will click immediately? Surely Archie is not so wrapped up in the 4-2-3-1 that we are not training other formations through the week! A footballing, passing ethos has very little to do with the formation. Why does Paul Hartley for example make tactical changes during a game, sometimes altering personnel, sometimes not, if changing formation has no impact when the same players are on the park? How many times have managers like Tony Pulis saved a team from relegation after a transfer window has shut by changing a few things and acheiving results in a short period of time? Not advocating to change our manager, but there are things he should easlily be able to change to positively influence results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Paul Hartley? You missed yesterday's result? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Surely Archie is not so wrapped up in the 4-2-3-1 that we are not training other formations through the week! A footballing, passing ethos has very little to do with the formation. Why does Paul Hartley for example make tactical changes during a game, sometimes altering personnel, sometimes not, if changing formation has no impact when the same players are on the park? How many times have managers like Tony Pulis saved a team from relegation after a transfer window has shut by changing a few things and acheiving results in a short period of time? Not advocating to change our manager, but there are things he should easlily be able to change to positively influence results. We change formation during every game we play, that's not in doubt, we have players able to change and adapt as the game progress's. What people have advocated is a complete change to how we line up. Without consideration of how it will work, why it will work, or what if it doesn't work. Or how long it will take to work. Archie's working with these guys on a daily basis. He knows how they think, he has built an ethos through the club around a formation he thinks best suits what he wants to achieve. The guy's not a bloody moron! If he thought going 541, 532, 343, 3241 or what ever variation would all of a sudden make us world beaters.... i'm pretty sure, he'd have done it by now! 4231 is versatile. Without making a substitution or making any drastic positional changes, it easily adapts into any formation which starts with 4 at the back. 442: bring your two wide men back and push Stevo up top 4411: bring your two wide men back either side of your DMs 4141: Sit Osman infront of the defence with Lawless, Banzo, Welsh, Stevo infront of him and behind Doolan. 424: Push your two wide mean further forward and play two up top 451: compact your 3 attacking midfielders in with your two DMs 433: seen on saturday with Welsh, Banzo and Osman all in the midfield. All interchangable through 90 minutes, and all available using the same starting 11. And all done at some point during every game we play Edited September 21, 2015 by potty trained 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunnylaw Jag Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) <p>Ma heid's buzzled wae aw those permutations. Edited September 21, 2015 by The Sunnylaw Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Nixon Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Paul Hartley? You missed yesterday's result? Pretty sure we've taken some serious pumpings off Celtic since getting promoted, including a six-nil of our own. Don't know why it would reflect badly on Hartley unless you want to give the same treatment to Archibald. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Why would anyone expect an improvement on 8th place after 9 games? we have a new goalkeeper. A whole new defence and new midfield. not disputing we have signed a couple of new defenders, or couple of new midfielders, but with exception of cerny, dumbuya was the only outfield player who started on saturday, who wasn't here last season. one player. out of ten. i concede some games have seen more than one outfield newbie start, but it is stretching it way too far to be seen as credible for someone to say we have "a whole new defence and new midfield". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnyjag Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Listen everyone is pissed off right now at the way things are going on the park, and we should forget about blaming the board because they have proven over the last few years that they are amateurish in just about everything they do including listening to fans. However we need to be realistic, financially for whatever reason, despite some additional income this season, we are at the bottom end of the market for players. Its clear that Archie is struggling a bit, but changing it just now will make no difference, any new manager would need to wait until January to bring new players (who aren't free agents) in. Give Archie until early December to attempt to turn things around, and if there are signs that things are changing we should stick with him, if not then I think we should look at a new face with new ideas coming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry gaz Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 4231 is versatile. Without making a substitution or making any drastic positional changes, it easily adapts into any formation which starts with 4 at the back. 442: bring your two wide men back and push Stevo up top 4411: bring your two wide men back either side of your DMs 4141: Sit Osman infront of the defence with Lawless, Banzo, Welsh, Stevo infront of him and behind Doolan. 424: Push your two wide mean further forward and play two up top 451: compact your 3 attacking midfielders in with your two DMs 433: seen on saturday with Welsh, Banzo and Osman all in the midfield. All interchangable through 90 minutes, and all available using the same starting 11. And all done at some point during every game we play .................but none of they combinations have worked have they? I don't know the answer but another glaring failing is the lack of an attacking midfielder and the lack of central midfielders to get into the box to pick up scraps and support the lone striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashman Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Paul Hartley? You missed yesterday's result? Ha-ha! Thinking in more general terms over the last 2 years :D http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/table Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashman Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 We change formation during every game we play, that's not in doubt, we have players able to change and adapt as the game progress's. What people have advocated is a complete change to how we line up. Without consideration of how it will work, why it will work, or what if it doesn't work. Or how long it will take to work. Archie's working with these guys on a daily basis. He knows how they think, he has built an ethos through the club around a formation he thinks best suits what he wants to achieve. The guy's not a bloody moron! If he thought going 541, 532, 343, 3241 or what ever variation would all of a sudden make us world beaters.... i'm pretty sure, he'd have done it by now! 4231 is versatile. Without making a substitution or making any drastic positional changes, it easily adapts into any formation which starts with 4 at the back. 442: bring your two wide men back and push Stevo up top 4411: bring your two wide men back either side of your DMs 4141: Sit Osman infront of the defence with Lawless, Banzo, Welsh, Stevo infront of him and behind Doolan. 424: Push your two wide mean further forward and play two up top 451: compact your 3 attacking midfielders in with your two DMs 433: seen on saturday with Welsh, Banzo and Osman all in the midfield. All interchangable through 90 minutes, and all available using the same starting 11. And all done at some point during every game we play Found this genuinely interesting. I would say that the majority of these tweaks are done by the players on the park rather than instigated by Archie. If Archie started with 442, for example Muirhead and Doolan up front this could also be tweaked in a similar way, but we never start with 2 up. It is very difficult to split the opposition centre backs with only 1 up and we have a lack of space to play balls into/make runs into as a result. Also, I am starting to get concerned that 2 defensive midfielders is 1 too many, Banzo/Welsh are wasted there for me and Abdul can cope fine on his own covering the defence, even if the full backs push up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 We set up too defensively, effectively playing a back 6. And toothless with a lone striker. When (if) it is tweaked it's usually a reactive move to us going a goal down, rather than a positive proactive move. Glad to see some other people agreeing with what I've been saying for weeks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I am starting to get concerned that 2 defensive midfielders is 1 too many, Banzo/Welsh are wasted there for me and Abdul can cope fine on his own covering the defence, even if the full backs push up. I think 1 premiership team plays 4132 but I can't remember who it is! Looking at its probably similar to the old diamond formation from the 90s. I've been wondering for a while if we could sacrifice 1 DM for a second striker. Certainly not the way Abdul starts a season. That's two in a row he's been miles off the pace. Now he's starting to click. The next question is, if Abdul is injured, could Banzo or Welsh door on their own? Something that crossed my mind was, if we did go two upfront, could Amoo play as the second striker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 We set up too defensively, effectively playing a back 6. And toothless with a lone striker. When (if) it is tweaked it's usually a reactive move to us going a goal down, rather than a positive proactive move. Glad to see some other people agreeing with what I've been saying for weeks. I think that's a natural progression from being a free flowing attacking 2nd tier team with the best players in the league, to stepping up a division. We need to protect the back 4 more than we did. You would hope that going into your 3rd top flight season, you would maintain a steady improvement of player. But budgets just don't allow that. The quality of player has stagnated, therefore we haven't been able to really improve that much and show more faith in our defenders, to allow us to attack at will. In the 1st, Banzo, Welsh etc would flood the box, ready for a SOD or ATS cut back. We no longer have a Paton to ping balls into over lapping full backs. Even our full backs can't be so attacking. The Premiership is a whole different ball game to the first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Pretty sure we've taken some serious pumpings off Celtic since getting promoted, including a six-nil of our own. Don't know why it would reflect badly on Hartley unless you want to give the same treatment to Archibald. One - nil at half time. Bannigan sent off before the break! .... Ref a c**t and we was robbed!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashman Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I think 1 premiership team plays 4132 but I can't remember who it is! Looking at its probably similar to the old diamond formation from the 90s. I've been wondering for a while if we could sacrifice 1 DM for a second striker. Certainly not the way Abdul starts a season. That's two in a row he's been miles off the pace. Now he's starting to click. The next question is, if Abdul is injured, could Banzo or Welsh door on their own? Something that crossed my mind was, if we did go two upfront, could Amoo play as the second striker? Banzo is not a clean enough tackler and I wouldn't want Welsh steaming into to many tackles. Fraser should be able to do it, but not really his natural game, plus he's bombed out at the moment. I was thinking about Amoo as second striker, but thought I'd get pelters given his performances so far. Maybe a Theirry Henry style re-invention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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