Norgethistle Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 What's your thoughts, are we better in, or better out. I think the EU has run its course, the idea of the common market was great but the EU is now run by pen pushers no one has elected 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 i would like to see what we would gain and lose to make a definite choice but i doubt that will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Independence NOW! ... Freedom!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 i would like to see what we would gain and lose to make a definite choice but i doubt that will happen. We would gain £10 billion a year to start of with, we would gain more control of taxes, it would keep us out TTIP 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Thanks to the EU, Europe, and therefore the UK, is enjoying the longest period of peace in the region in centuries. That alone proves the validity of the EU. The economic stuff is a secondary, and very welcome, by-product. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Thanks to the EU, Europe, and therefore the UK, is enjoying the longest period of peace in the region in centuries. That alone proves the validity of the EU. The economic stuff is a secondary, and very welcome, by-product. Peace has nothing to do with the EU, and you would be hard pressed to prove much of a link, NATO yes, UN? (LOL sorry had a wee giggle to myself) EU no. no one is knocking lump out of each other because it suits them. Edited February 20, 2016 by jaggybunnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinhead Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 If we go out the uk football scene would be destroyed lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 Thanks to the EU, Europe, and therefore the UK, is enjoying the longest period of peace in the region in centuries. That alone proves the validity of the EU. The economic stuff is a secondary, and very welcome, by-product. Your painting in pretty broad strokes there Barney. The EU was formally established by the Maastricht Treaty 1992-3 and amended it's constitutional status with the Lisbon treaty in 2007-9. The foundations were set in the treaty of Rome 1957-8 and the establishment of the European Economic Community. Prior to this pan-european economic policy was broadly limited to the European Coal and Steel Community agreed in the treaty of Paris 1951-2. Prior to all these agreements came the establishment of The Council of Europe, founded 1949. The treaty of London was signed by 10 nation states which has grown to 47, (19 more than the EU) . A separate body from the EU, attended by members of national parliaments and with an "executive" made up of the foreign ministers of each member state. NATO was founded in 1949, by 12 nation states and has expanded to 28. In it's rush to recognise the independence of Croatia, the EU was heavily involved in the politics which led to only land war on mainland Europe since 1945. The EU's enthusiasm to expand it's boarders, were evident in the Ukrainian unrest. The EU's enthusiasm to expand it's boarders to include Turkey will increase the threat of conflict on it's territory. EU policy and imposed governance on economic matters in Italy, Spain and Greece has led to serious civil unrest. The "EU" is a consequence of peace rather than the cause and is now possibly the greatest threat. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) The pro-longed peace argument is a load of sh*te. The world hasn't stopped being at war since WW2, and we are now closer to WW3 than ever before. One of the reasons for that is actually the EU supporting a fascist uprising in Ukraine. The people who have the real power and make the big decisions in the EU are completely unelected, we can do nothing to get rid of them. It's a level of democracy that makes even Westminster look good. The EU wasn't created to keep the peace, it was created to make it easier for big business to access more people. You only have to look at what's happened in Greece recently to figure out what the priority of the EU is. Greece is now consigned to austerity for a lifetime, forced upon them by the EU. Youth unemployment in Spain and Portugal is close to, or above 50%. Ireland, Italy are some other examples of economies that have been decimated purely to keep the EU afloat. But the funniest thing about this whole episode has to be the cybernats who fight every day to leave one union but are actually in favour of being part of an even bigger, and less democratic one. Incredible. Edited February 22, 2016 by ian_mac 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted February 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 The pro-longed peace argument is a load of sh*te. The world hasn't stopped being at war since WW2, and we are now closer to WW3 than ever before. One of the reasons for that is actually the EU supporting a fascist uprising in Ukraine. The people who have the real power and make the big decisions in the EU are completely unelected, we can do nothing to get rid of them. It's a level of democracy that makes even Westminster look good. The EU wasn't created to keep the peace, it was created to make it easier for big business to access more people. You only have to look at what's happened in Greece recently to figure out what the priority of the EU is. Greece is now consigned to austerity for a lifetime, forced upon them by the EU. Youth unemployment in Spain and Portugal is close to, or above 50%. Ireland, Italy are some other examples of economies that have been decimated purely to keep the EU afloat. But the funniest thing about this whole episode has to be the cybernats who fight every day to leave one union but are actually in favour of being part of an even bigger, and less democratic one. Incredible. Couldn't have summed it up better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 Well.... truth is..... it's not just the "cybernats" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 It's not a matter of being better off, economic benefit or loss, although one could argue the case for either. However, at least if we stay in the Scottish people will have control of their own destiny, and the democratically decided will of the Scots will be sovereign in matters which affect them...... Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 1, 2016 Report Share Posted March 1, 2016 Alex Salmond should swallow his pride and admit proving a point to an English girl is not in the best interest of the Scottish people. He is an ambitious, determined and intelligent republican and socialist who places notoriety, power, control and authority above individual freedom or democratic negotiation. "One Scotland" he was willing to split in two in order to make his mark on history. "One Scotland" he does not recognise but wants to control. "One Scotland" bought and sold by continental gold ? "In my defence to their accusations, I said, that whatever might be my sentiments of republics, ancient or modern, as to Britain, I abjured the idea:- That a constitution, which, in its original principles, experience had proved to be every way fitted for our happiness in society, it would be insanity to sacrifice to an untried visionary theory:" - Robert Burns, letter to John Francis Erskine, Esq. of Mar, written from Dumfries on 13th April, 1793. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Do you know who your MEP is? Do you know how much it costs to have one? Can you say what they have achieved in Brussels/Strasbourg? Knowing that they cannot propose legislation do you know how they might represent your interests. For Example, did they vote for or against the Tobacco products directive, the energy efficiency directive? Have they spoken for or against or in any way to influence or draw attention, caution or scrutiny to the Trans Atlantic Trade and Investment partnership? Have they ever voted against a proposal that has not been passed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 "...we still have people with no democratic mandate writing the laws of the land, I just find completely and totally unacceptable and indefensible" ... Nicola Surgeon MSP .... Who voted for her as First Minister? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 If the Lords are elected ... What's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Turnout is seen as a litmus for the EU Parliament’s democratic legitimacy by many but it has fallen steadily, from 62% in 1979(first) to 43% in the 2014 election (Europe wide). Turnout in the UK for Euro-elections peaked at 38.52% and hit an all time low in 1999 at 24%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Under a proportional system similar to that used for European elections the result of the UK general election 2015 would have been Conservatives 242 (-89), Labour 208 (-24), SNP 30 (-26), Lib Dems 47 (+39), Plaid Cymru 5 (+2), Ukip 80 (+79), Greens 20 (+19). So the likely practical result of a change of electoral system would be that, David Cameron would still be prime minister. The only difference is that he would could possibly be serving at the whim of Nigel Farage. Another coalition a certainty and one where Nick Clegg would have won a lot more seats, and Nicola Sturgeon a lot less and Jeremy Corbyn's Labour with an even steeper mountain to climb. Fairer, more representative of the nation's mood? It's a moot point which one may arrive at one's own conclusion. However, a more practical question one may wish to consider is, would a man perceived of strong principle often straying from the party line like Mr. Corbyn be placed sufficiently high on a party list of suitable candidates. or would a Tony Blair or Ed Milliband type leader have chosen 208 more loyal and less principled troops to back his campaign for the keys to number 10? For me the trade off between party representation and accountability to the electorate is the antithesis of the localism the most prominent advocates of PP, the SNP, UKIP, Lib-Dems and Greens, suggest they promote. Democracy does not end at the ballot box. Edited March 7, 2016 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) The Sturgeon Paradox. EU yes UK no She either does not understand the UK, the European Union, the signing of treaties, independence or sovereignty or hopes that her followers are willing to abide by the diluted meanings she appropriates to these words in order to advance a political "win" . She promotes an oxymoronic vision of the future and dismisses historic fact and present concerns. "[The Single European Act] encouraged further pooling of sovereignty, for example by removing national vetoes in some areas." Nicola Sturgeon, speech in London 29/2/16. This pooling of sovereignty creates a new sovereign entity, to which the former independent, supreme entities must submit to. The act to which she refers and following treaties lay down the principle of the primacy of the law of the European Union over the law of the Member States. This principle, which has been developed by the Court of Justice in its case-law, has long been recognised to be a basic principle and a key aspect of the functioning of the Union. She needs this vote to go for Europe, not for the good of Scottish interests but to avoid a second independence referendum with a choice between a unbalanced Euro currency and German-dominated EU or Sterling, and English-dominated UK. Scots would face the choice of being governed from Britain/London or Berlin/Brussels/Strasbourg. "Yes, of course I want Scotland to be independent but I don’t want Scotland to become independent because the UK chooses to leave the European Union. I want the United Kingdom as a whole to choose to stay in the EU." It is a statement which can be interpreted and spun to fit one's best ideals. However, it could be argued that it is a bit of a retreat from the argument that Scotland is indeed different from the rest of the UK and indeed not "too wee" to go it "alone". In her speech on the EU to the Resolution Foundation in London last week she referenced WW2. It has been suggested that Churchill was in some way, some kind of founding father of the EU. He was not. The institution he encouraged and indeed promoted was the Council of Europe, a body which remains independent from the EU ( although under threat from from its interference and manoeuvring for power ), contains far more member states, and is open to greater discussion, negotiation and observation by the wider world. It should be noted that Churchill also said "...only when plans for uniting Europe take a federal form that we cannot take part, because we cannot subordinate ourselves or the control of British policy to federal authorities." "Leaving the EU delivers what member state status cannot - real independence on key policies, controlled only by ourselves and the unfettered ability to make our own laws. It called sovereignty and nationalists used to support it." Jim Sillars. Edited March 8, 2016 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Jean Claude Junker is a shape shifting lizard and Angela Merkel is an out of control cannibal lesbian android originally built by the Stasi to lure dissident perverts who escaped the facility when the wall came down. The world is not flat, it's a computer simulation programmed by evil death aliens who keep your brain in a jar in a huge hanger on the dark side of the moon! Don't believe Sabbath... he is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Jean Claude Junker is a shape shifting lizard and Angela Merkel is an out of control cannibal lesbian android originally built by the Stasi to lure dissident perverts who escaped the facility when the wall came down. The world is not flat, it's a computer simulation programmed by evil death aliens who keep your brain in a jar in a huge hanger on the dark side of the moon! Don't believe Sabbath... he is one of them. ^^^^^ all true it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 13, 2016 Report Share Posted March 13, 2016 Brussels/Strasbourg. At the end 2013, MEPs voted for the two-parliament system to be scrapped by a three-to-one majority. The French government, which has a power of veto on the issue, insist on maintaining Strasbourg’s role because of the substantial amount of money the travelling circus brings to the region. Its status is set in stone under a European treaty signed in 1992, which can only be revoked should all member states agree it. The EU admits that the monthly Strasbourg sitting, which lasts just four days, costs an additional £93 million a year. Some estimates have the cost "a little" higher at £136 million. Among the costs are £250,000 a year to transport the plastic boxes containing documents, diaries and other items from Brussels to Strasbourg and back again. It is thought it costs up to £200,000 for the EU to charter two express trains to take officials, MEPs and others there on a Monday morning and back on a Thursday afternoon. Taxpayers foot the £2.5 million bill for relocating freelance translators from Brussels to Strasbourg and back again, including costs of travel, accommodation and other expenses. Catering services in Strasbourg costs an additional £1 million, while extra medical support comes to some £330,000. In In addition to this logistical extravagance, in Strasbourg extra money is needed for computers and IT support and for maintenance and security of the sleek parliament building, which was only completed in 1999. In total, the cost of looking after the French buildings and infrastructure and other charges comes to about £50 million a year. About 100 people are employed in Strasbourg full-time, even though the European Parliament only meets for 12 sessions, each lasting four days, a total of 48 days each year. The EU budget is framed in a seven year cycle. The current (2014-20) plans for administrative spending are set £62billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Left and right unite and fight. Edited March 14, 2016 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 President Obama is coming. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-barack-obama-remain-campaign-brexit-europe-a6927731.html "A No 10 source confirmed that Mr Obama will make his intervention and visit the UK as an extra leg of a trip to Germany next month.". If you wish to remain a part of the EU, at least investigate and scrutinise what it is, like this former member of the Trotskyist International Socialists, card carrying Labour Party member and foreign correspondent in both Washington and Moscow, now derided by many in the much discredited "main stream media" as an eccentric, if not extremist, right wing loony worthy of ridicule and dismissal... Mr. Salmond once said "Co-operation with our European partners in the functional areas--economic, trading, technical and social policies--offers an independent Scotland the chance to play a reforming part in creating a Europe of equal nations. The EC is by no means perfect and the idea of a centralised European super-state is anathema." ... ask yourself, do the people of Greece appear to feel they are treated as an equal by the EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 "...one of the things we learned quickly about referendums in Scotland, is that if people are encouraged to and given the opportunity to truly engage in the issues, and realise the potential impact, good or bad, on their own day to day lives, then it is possible to generate a thriving democratic debate..." Nicola Sturgeon 29/2/16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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