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Eu Referendum


Norgethistle
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EU, should we stay or should we go  

47 members have voted

  1. 1. Now the referendum has been called what's your thoughts?

    • Stay in
      29
    • Time to leave
      18


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But who, apart from the right wing inside and outside of the Tory party, were calling for a referendum?

 

As I see it, Cameron was not able to persuade the right wingers in his own party to shut the f*** up and was feart they'd all sod off and join the swivel-eyed loons in UKIP.

 

Is that any basis for all this fuss?

 

There has been cross party "euro-scepticism" for decades and the elected government promised it in their pre-election manifesto. That's the basis.

 

The swivel eyed loons of UKIP and their position on the EU were supported by 3,8/3,9 million voters in 2015. If you add their vote (12.7%) to that of the Tories(36.8%) it amounts to 49.5% percent of the popular votes cast being in favour of parties promising an in/out referendum on membership of the EU. I'm not familiar with the manifestos of the main Ulster Unionist parties but I imagine they to may have supported a referendum ( and I note the UUP have recently officially backed the "remain" side) which would add another 1.5%.

 

It is perhaps true that many politicians were reluctant to offer a referendum, but using the 2015 general election as a pseudo referendum on a referendum the people were fairly evenly split.

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[media]

[media/]

 

Best leader Labour never had?

 

Even a committed republican socialist is allowed to hold a personal opinion. Referenda offer the opportunity to vote freely, without the restraints of party loyalty.

 

This in not about "leaving Europe" or isolationism. This is about democracy and which practice of it we live under.

 

Leaving the EU, for example, does not mean leaving all pan European institutions. The European Court of Human Rights is not a European Union institution. It was set up by the Council of Europe ( 47 members compared to the EU's 28 ).

 

While it is true the EU has influence on it and through the The European Court of Justice there is an important "legal" tie and the current governing party in the UK supports a return to our own "Bill of Rights" etc... The relationship is demonstrably flexible.

 

The broader argument put forward by some that the EU ‘stands for human rights’ because it was formed with the aim of bringing peace and co-operation to Europe is unconvincing. To those on its borders, in its prisons, and on the blunt end economic policies, the EU is hardly a protector.

 

The EU is government. Not a meeting for negotiation of independent governments.

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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrzfgUv3ZKk[media/]

 

Best leader Labour never had?

 

Even a committed republican socialist is allowed to hold a personal opinion. Referenda offer the opportunity to vote freely, without the restraints of party loyalty.

 

This in not about "leaving Europe" or isolationism. This is about democracy and which practice of it we live under.

 

Leaving the EU, for example, does not mean leaving all pan European institutions. The European Court of Human Rights is not a European Union institution. It was set up by the Council of Europe ( 47 members compared to the EU's 28 ).

 

While it is true the EU has influence on it and through the The European Court of Justice there is an important "legal" tie and the current governing party in the UK supports a return to our own "Bill of Rights" etc... The relationship is demonstrably flexible.

 

The broader argument put forward by some that the EU ‘stands for human rights’ because it was formed with the aim of bringing peace and co-operation to Europe is unconvincing. To those on its borders, in its prisons, and on the blunt end economic policies, the EU is hardly a protector.

 

The EU is government. Not a meeting for negotiation of independent governments.

 

 

OK, what is your vision for the UK, and more importantly for Scotland after a leave vote?

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OK, what is your vision for the UK, and more importantly for Scotland after a leave vote?

 

The vision for the UK IS the vision for Scotland

 

 

The eu sole aim is expansion at the expense of the individual nations with a failed currency and a worrying want of its own army which wont work as nations are very touchy about letting other countries general's control there forces, WW1, WW2 and well any joint operation have shown this, add to this the corruption which makes westminster look like a nunnery. last i looked turkey was not in Europe which rather proves my point on there expansion push.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Aren't all elections decided by the votes of the swithering?

 

I make no contention with your suggestion, however....

 

This is not an election like all others. It is a referendum. This is an important point not a purely pedantic one.

 

While "election" is not totally unsuitable as a description, it is obtuse and has been demonstrably used to effect opinion during the campaign.

 

It is a single issue we are being polled on. Not persons to represent us.

 

It is worth noting too the distinction that this is not a "plebiscite". The semantic connotation is that we are being gauged for opinion rather than being granted authoritative command.

 

What happened in Ireland in 2008/09, the Netherlands and France in 2005 in relation to fundamental EU matters make this too, not mere pedantry, but important issues to note.

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For the avoidance of doubt, the EU is a supranational institution not a predominantly intergovernmental one.

 

All EU member states submit to the primacy of EU Law. None are independent of this. To say any EU member state is "independent" is astonishingly misleading and an affront to any understanding of national sovereignty.

 

Nation states are said to be represented in the Council of the European Union and the European Council ( I say again "The Council of Europe" is a separate entity from the EU... confused? I suspect you are ment to be! :happy2: ) however, these are only 2 of the 7 institutions of the EU. ( +5 Commision, Parliament, Central Bank, Court of Justice, Auditors).

 

4pxkq1.jpg

 

Our representatives in these 2 institutions exceed the consent we give them to represent us and to protect our national sovereignty in appointing, or consenting to, people taking office and granting them authority over us that is not to solely accountable to our nation state democracy.

 

The oath Commissioners make upon taking office :

 

"I solemnly undertake:

  • to respect the Treaties and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union in the fulfilment of all my duties;
  • to be completely independent in carrying out my responsibilities, in the general interest of the Union;
  • in the performance of my tasks, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any Government or from any other institution, body, office or entity;
  • to refrain from any action incompatible with my duties or the performance of my tasks.

I formally note the undertaking of each Member State to respect this principle and not to seek to influence Members of the Commission in the performance of their tasks.

I further undertake to respect, both during and after my term of office, the obligation arising therefrom, and in particular the duty to behave with integrity and discretion as regards the acceptance, after I have ceased to hold office, of certain appointments or benefits."

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-2511_en.htm

 

 

The commissioners, the executive body of the EU, 28 people with the sole legislative initiative within it, do not represent their respective nation states their electorates or their best interests.

 

They do this with assistance and influence from 23,000 unelected civil servants and arguably the biggest, most organised, and most encouraged corporate lobbying system in the world.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

 

Worldwide, approx 90,000 people are no longer here. The world didn't end but it seems a bit flatter.

 

Yes, it seems flatter and more inward looking.

 

The real challenges have still to come. At least 2 years of economic uncertainty, political upheaval and potentially the fragmentation of the U.K.

 

Well done Boris you fool, you have bequeathed a mess to future generations.

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Yes, it seems flatter and more inward looking.

 

The real challenges have still to come. At least 2 years of economic uncertainty, political upheaval and potentially the fragmentation of the U.K.

 

Well done Boris you fool, you have bequeathed a mess to future generations.

 

Cameron bears a great deal of responsibility for this.

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