New Management

[Hankey]

He has to go now. Outsmarted by a team with a fraction of our budget. 

 

[topcat]

I would want to buck the trend of Continually sacking managers just to get the same old list of the merry go round of suggestions. No one brought in is going to do any better than Archibald without dollops  of cash. We dont do that anymore. It never bears reminding how close we came to not having a club and how easily that gets forgotten (Save the Jags) Let's be patient, wait till our academy starts producing. We were kept in the league for five years and did get top six. The Championship is a good league and we can look forward to actually winning some games and competing. Unless we can find that other level of money or sponsorship any new manager will have the same issues stuck in the misery of an SPFL relegation dogfight. Is that what we all aspire to. We should only desire the premier league if we really have the resources of to stay there and that ain't the case.

[Garscube Road End]

22 minutes ago, topcat said:

I would want to buck the trend of Continually sacking managers just to get the same old list of the merry go round of suggestions. No one brought in is going to do any better than Archibald without dollops  of cash. We dont do that anymore. It never bears reminding how close we came to not having a club and how easily that gets forgotten (Save the Jags) Let's be patient, wait till our academy starts producing. We were kept in the league for five years and did get top six. The Championship is a good league and we can look forward to actually winning some games and competing. Unless we can find that other level of money or sponsorship any new manager will have the same issues stuck in the misery of an SPFL relegation dogfight. Is that what we all aspire to. We should only desire the premier league if we really have the resources of to stay there and that ain't the case.

If we Don't get back into the top league I would think that the academy would eventually be in doubt.

[eljaggo]

Sounds like a white flag being waved.  Agree with views on use of academy and the use of tried and convicted managers. 

[javeajag]

24 minutes ago, topcat said:

I would want to buck the trend of Continually sacking managers just to get the same old list of the merry go round of suggestions. No one brought in is going to do any better than Archibald without dollops  of cash. We dont do that anymore. It never bears reminding how close we came to not having a club and how easily that gets forgotten (Save the Jags) Let's be patient, wait till our academy starts producing. We were kept in the league for five years and did get top six. The Championship is a good league and we can look forward to actually winning some games and competing. Unless we can find that other level of money or sponsorship any new manager will have the same issues stuck in the misery of an SPFL relegation dogfight. Is that what we all aspire to. We should only desire the premier league if we really have the resources of to stay there and that ain't the case.

This is just plain wrong....

archie has had more money  - and he actually gave Aberdeen money for storey ! -  than any manager I can remember and the best youth system we have ever had yet lost to a team with the 8th yes 8th budget in the championship 

we have more money than Hamilton and Ross County and are on a par with St Johnstone Dundee and Killie 

Our  average gate is higher than st Johnstone , our revenue higher than killed for example 

and our average player wages are competitive with the bottom 6

by your logic we should appoint Archie for life 

we need to drop the wee club mentality 

[Jaggernaut]

10 minutes ago, javeajag said:

This is just plain wrong....

archie has had more money  - and he actually gave Aberdeen money for storey ! -  than any manager I can remember and the best youth system we have ever had yet lost to a team with the 8th yes 8th budget in the championship 

we have more money than Hamilton and Ross County and are on a par with St Johnstone Dundee and Killie 

Our  average gate is higher than st Johnstone , our revenue higher than killed for example 

and our average player wages are competitive with the bottom 6

by your logic we should appoint Archie for life 

we need to drop the wee club mentality 

How will changing the manager make us look like a bigger club?

[laukat]

There are 3 options on the table just now.

1. Archie and the board issue a statement this week saying he wants to remedy his mistakes and make as quick as possible return knowing that if next season doesn't go well its not just Archie who will need to fall.

2. The board pull him in this week and say thanks but good by

3. The board let Archie pontificate over several weeks and leave us all hanging, we loose a few weeks of essential preparation for next season which is only 8 weeks away and then make panic decisions on a replacement manager and/or replacement players

Personally I think its times for option 2. However I suspect that we will go with  option 3 as we just do not have a ruthless leader at the club.

As we have no General Manager we need the chairman to come out to either fully support Archie or get rid. The decision cannot be Archie's.

[javeajag]

26 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

How will changing the manager make us look like a bigger club?

Don’t get this at all ... you mean bigger clubs don’t change their managers ? We have the longest serving manager in the league so we are not exactly Watford - though changing their manager every season works for them - and firing managers all the time 

Football is a results business 

[Jaggernaut]

25 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Don’t get this at all ... you mean bigger clubs don’t change their managers ? We have the longest serving manager in the league so we are not exactly Watford - though changing their manager every season works for them - and firing managers all the time 

Football is a results business 

I mean many smaller clubs change their manager, and they keep their small club mentality.

For those who definitely want Archie sacked: who should replace him? And what if we're languishing in mid-table or worse next season?

[fenski]

While I think Archie would be more than capable of managing the team next season and there's a lot to be said for managerial continuity, I do think it's the end of this particular chapter of Thistle's history. A fresh start, built on the stable foundations of youth development, training complex, and entertaining football is required.

[laukat]

9 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

For those who definitely want Archie sacked: who should replace him? And what if we're languishing in mid-table or worse next season?

Right now if someone offered me a mid-table finish in the championship next year I would snatch your hand off. We have a massive turnover of players ahead and you only have to look at what happened to us previously and to clubs like St Mirren, ICT and Falkirk.

The question is who is best to do the rebuild and get us that mid-table finish? To my mind that's not Archie.

He's had 5 years and his recruitment tends to be from the english leagues which we won't be able to afford. He also doesn't have faith in the younger guys (penrice, mccarthy). Our recruitment needs to be focused on finding young ambitious Scottish players who together with Doolan and Erskine can form an effective team that may challenge in 2 to 3 years time.

In effect we need someone to do the job Ian McCall did for us 7 or 8 years ago. I appreciate he left under a cloud before but then again some of our best times have been brought by the return of some other 'prodigal sons'.

 

[chunky jag]

agree with most of that laukat - team has reached the end of their shelf life, its been a great ride these past 5 years, and as you quite rightly say it was McCall that put the wheels in motion.

 

I've been a huge supporter of Archie, but my biggest concern appears to be he hasn't really moved us on in terms of on the field plan - to go into yesterday, the biggest game in our recent history, and the plan is still for Dools/Erskine/Lawless to win it for you, that was the plan 5 years ago, why have we no alternative?

 

I too would take 5th-6th right now for next year, too often you see teams (happened to us remember) going straight down, we need to stop the cycle of losing every week and not scoring goals. Comfortable 5-6th would do me, and make a push for play offs/promotion the next season.

 

 

[javeajag]

29 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

I mean many smaller clubs change their manager, and they keep their small club mentality.

For those who definitely want Archie sacked: who should replace him? And what if we're languishing in mid-table or worse next season?

archie has had 5 seasons which in football is quite a long time ....how often to real madrid or barcelona change their managers ? quite frequently and they are big clubs

their is always another manager out there for every job....archie to me looks as though he doesn't know what to do

personally i think the top six finish was a trifle fortunate - we had more points in the previous two seasons - and papered over cracks plus some poor signings

[Duke Gekantawa]

28 minutes ago, javeajag said:

personally i think the top six finish was a trifle fortunate - we had more points in the previous two seasons - and papered over cracks plus some poor signings

Could I check- are you talking about final point totals?  If so, then it is not a like-for-like comparison, as it is much harder to pick up points post-split in the top 6 than the bottom.

If, however, you are comparing point totals at the split, then fair enough.

[Fearchar]

44 minutes ago, laukat said:

The question is who is best to do the rebuild and get us that mid-table finish? To my mind that's not Archie.

He's had 5 years and his recruitment tends to be from the english leagues which we won't be able to afford. He also doesn't have faith in the younger guys (penrice, mccarthy). Our recruitment needs to be focused on finding young ambitious Scottish players who together with Doolan and Erskine can form an effective team that may challenge in 2 to 3 years time.

In effect we need someone to do the job Ian McCall did for us 7 or 8 years ago. I appreciate he left under a cloud before but then again some of our best times have been brought by the return of some other 'prodigal sons'.

 

32 minutes ago, chunky jag said:

to go into yesterday, the biggest game in our recent history, and the plan is still for Dools/Erskine/Lawless to win it for you, that was the plan 5 years ago, why have we no alternative?

Keeping Alan Archibald would indicate that the board is no longer in control of the club's destiny, and hopes for a longstanding but fallible servant to dig it out, although there has been no evidence of progress. It would not be good for the club nor, indeed, fair to Archibald: rewarding failure is not a habit either can afford to develop.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

16 hours ago, KemoAvdiu said:

Those of you who “saw the warning signs” were the same ones who had spent the last four years berating Archibald while he led us to promotion and then continually improved us, so forgive me if I don’t thank you for being such soothsayers. 

This season has been dire and maybe he will go, but he deserves a hell of a lot more than some of the chants today and some of the abuse he’s received (and is receiving) online. He’s given us some fantastic years and should be remembered as one of our most successful managers ever, regardless of this year. 

Agree entirely.

Just about every manager will eventually lose his job. And EVERY experienced manager that posters on here say "would do a good job for us" will have lost his job elsewhere, more than once in many cases. I'd like to know the skill set employed to know that their selection would do the business for us. Same goes the other way round of course and who's to say just because a manager has been sacked once or twice he'd be a failure with us. In my mind then as every manager has failed somewhere in their career, is whether they've learned from their previous errors. And are they all the stronger for their poor management?  And again I would ask the question re the skill set of any of us as to how we know who would cut the mustard and who wouldn't.

As far as I'm aware we're all Jags fans on here and want the best for the Club. I just feel we should remember that the names we bandy about should be taken more lightly. So in that vein I'll suggest we look for a manager who will get us promoted even if that's as far as he's capable of taking us. Ideally someone with  experience in doing just that.  One name springs to mind but that might not now be feasible and would of course be a very hard sell to many.

[javeajag]

15 minutes ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

Could I check- are you talking about final point totals?  If so, then it is not a like-for-like comparison, as it is much harder to pick up points post-split in the top 6 than the bottom.

If, however, you are comparing point totals at the split, then fair enough.

you are right these are totals after 38 games

whether games at the bottom six are harder/easier is a debate point as many bottom six games can be more meaningful

[Fearchar]

6 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

As far as I'm aware we're all Jags fans on here and want the best for the Club. I just feel we should remember that the names we bandy about should be taken more lightly. So in that vein I'll suggest we look for a manager who will get us promoted even if that's as far as he's capable of taking us. Ideally someone with  experience in doing just that.  One name springs to mind but that might not now be feasible and would of course be a very hard sell to many.

I think you're being a bit optimistic if you think Jupp (Heynckes) would take on the job - although he might appreciate the challenge.

[chunky jag]

21 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Agree entirely.

Just about every manager will eventually lose his job. And EVERY experienced manager that posters on here say "would do a good job for us" will have lost his job elsewhere, more than once in many cases. I'd like to know the skill set employed to know that their selection would do the business for us. Same goes the other way round of course and who's to say just because a manager has been sacked once or twice he'd be a failure with us. In my mind then as every manager has failed somewhere in their career, is whether they've learned from their previous errors. And are they all the stronger for their poor management?  And again I would ask the question re the skill set of any of us as to how we know who would cut the mustard and who wouldn't.

As far as I'm aware we're all Jags fans on here and want the best for the Club. I just feel we should remember that the names we bandy about should be taken more lightly. So in that vein I'll suggest we look for a manager who will get us promoted even if that's as far as he's capable of taking us. Ideally someone with  experience in doing just that.  One name springs to mind but that might not now be feasible and would of course be a very hard sell to many.

agree with this - I would be open to keeping archie for this reason - but board would need convinced has he learned why this season was as poor as it was.

 

Injuries yeh but we can't keep falling back on that. Recruitment, out of form players who were previously reliable, management of the long term injuries, failure to get any continuity on the pitch (again injuries are partly to blame), players relaxing into a comfort zone, "losing the dressing room" - there can be questions asked of all these issues. The goal difference is embarrassing. Losing in the play offs to Livi is embarrassing (but good luck to them).

 

Huge questions for archie to answer if he wants to stay, which isn't a given. I hope he's learned from this season, and could use his experience and anger at what happened to lead us back.

[Hankey]

You would think the management had inherited someone elses team the way they harp on about the squad letting him down. The team is a mental reflection of him. Soft. 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

2 hours ago, Garscube Road End said:

If we Don't get back into the top league I would think that the academy would eventually be in doubt.

The Academy is funded by donations from the Weirs and is totally separate from the club finances.  I would argue that for a club of our size we could not run an academy of that size and would  be better off picking up released players from other clubs but the Weir Academy is more than just looking for 1st team players but also brings community benefits for boys and girls to participate in sport, health and education and long may it continue. 

[allyo]

I just hope that calm, rational decisions are taken, with cool heads. These will involve some issues that we could see on the pitch and some that go deeper into the running of the club. Performances have been poor but that doesn't mean the whole club is a disaster. Hysteria won't help us.

Regarding the academy, if it was dependent on us staying in the top flight then it should never have been started. Relegation was always a possibility for us. I'd like to think our model is more robust than that.

[Ruchillnomore]

At the start of the season in the open question session with Archie, Ian Maxwell and 2 of the Boatd I asked the question re the new training development would it still go ahead regardless of what league we were in and I was told by all at the table that it would not have an impact whatsoever. The new training development would go ahead as planned. 

[eljaggo]

That is very good news:  It tells prospective players that the Club has ambition, and along with the Academy increases the Club's profile and gives a strong statement of intent. Now to make best use of them!

[Yellow & Redneck]

McCall expects to manage Thistle again, but insists he will not replace Archibald, should the former defender lose his job.

"I think I'll be back at Thistle at some point in my life but I would never, ever follow Alan Archibald if the worst does come to the worst," he said.

"I think too much of him. I had him as a player for seven years. Even talking about it, I don't think it's going to happen and I don't think it should happen."

Ian McCall has proven himself to be an absolute class act. He was the one who put the wheels in motion, and found some absolute gems like Doolan and Erskine, along with guys like Liam Buchanan who would have risen to the status of Kris Doolan if not for injury. Would have him back in the hot-seat in a heartbeat. But appears to be a man of principle. On this occasion however, I disagree with him that Archibald should be kept on.