New Management

[laukat]

1 hour ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Most valid question. Only speaking for myself but I believe most Jags fans would give Archie more than just pass marks for the previous 4 and a half seasons. He's still a young manager and I feel he deserves some time to redress our fortunes. How long? Till Xmas if we're still struggling. Till the end of the season if we're looking like probables for the promotion play offs.

Thanks for the answer to the question.

However I think this approach is high risk. If Archie is struggling come January it will be far more difficult to find a manager able to turn it around. Said new manager will have inherited Archie's new squad which means even if he is successful next summer would be another clearout and start again. There used to be certain managers who could step into a club midseason and turn them around but I struggle to think of any in recent times and even fewer that Thistle could go to if Archie fails.

I also think if Archie continues apathy might be a big concern. Its getting a bit stale watching 4-2-3-1 and hearing the cliche-ridden post match interviews. When we went down under Murdo McLeod he had similar managerial traits to Archie. Spoke in cliche's, played a passing but ineffective brand of football and failed to develop any younger players. We can't repeat that mistake, we need a stronger personality on the touchline that can bring back some passion.

 

[Garscube Road End]

Looking at the situation at the club. No Chief Executive, relegation, management uncertainty, player uncertainty it is going to be a tumultuous summer. And the huge handicap is the timescale we have before the new season kicks off. I have been extremely vocal in my criticism of Archie and I stand by my opinions on that subject. But with all that is in play it may be the best policy to continue with Archie as manager on the proviso, as suggested, on this forum that it is reviewed in December. Giving time to get a settled squad and bed in the new Chief Executive to build a rapport with Archie. If the board decide to let Archie redeem himself, then we go with it. Time is of the essence. Let's see what the whole club deal with it.

[fenski]

I totally get the argument that he doesn't deserve to stay given this season. I also think it might do himself a lot of good to take a break - anyone in his position must be worn out. However if he was going to be sacked, it should've happened well before now. Recruiting a new manager takes time, the new manager then needs to assess the squad which is difficult because it's the close season, then start recruiting players from a diminished. All of that diminishes the chance of any stability or success next season.

I wouldn't wait til January to sack him if things are not going well - that would be as silly as  removing him now. If things are not going well, he goes in November or early December (as long as a replacement is lined up).

My argument is not based on emotion or a sense of loyalty to a long standing servant of the club. It is a head rather than heart based decision. Having said that, I would be so happy to see him turn things around next season.

[jagsman411971]

This is Archibalds first real mistake as a manager,is it not? So do we let him go, and hope he doesn't learn from this? Or do we hold onto him, and hope that he does? 

[allyo]

If we keep him in think it should be with a long term view. Not as a stop gap or a few months to prove himself.  He's proved himself before. The question is whether he still has the will and the appetite, and whether the board still trusts him. 

Personally hope he stays as I'm a big fan of continuity (and I think he's capable), but I understand that is unfashionable, and why that isn't everyone's view. 

[Jag]

I think Archie will remain in charge next season and see out his contract.  I would like to think  if the board were going to get rid off him they would have done it by now.

Archibald is as devastated as anyone about the relegation. He is clearly hurting and has worked tirelessly to prevent it happening. He has retained high ethics throughout his time in charge. He is  well mannered and respected by all his peers. He is basically "one of the good guys".

However, that doesn't mean he is the right man to be in charge at the club next season. I, and others have mentioned before, his inability to sign a decent striker during ten transfer windows. We have been relegated, according to the man himself, due to leaking too many goals. This from a defence that he assembled. Lindsay was the big loss this season. This may be true but Archie didn't sign him either. We have gone from a young, hungry team playing free flowing football to an ageing, pedestrian team, relying on the long ball on too many occasions. I believe he is tactically naive and shows an inability to change games in play. I've heard all these "lost the dressing room" rumours as well and, although I'm not convinced by this, it would certainly make a lot of sense ("some hurting in there more than others" was his quote).

It will be a sad day for everyone when Alan Archibald leaves Partick Thistle. However, think how sad it will be if we remain in the Championship for another 5-10 years because we didn't make the correct decision of who should be managing the club.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Jag

[Big Col]

Yes, let's keep the manager whose brand of football this season has been absolute turgid side to side and backwards tippy tappy conservative negative tripe. The manager who has signed such wonder players as Azeez, Pogba and Woods. The manager who thought we would be fine once injured players recovered from injury (even though some of them hadn't kicked a ball for ages) so didn't sign any players in January other than a cast off from Bournemouth.

Aye, more of the same please.

[laukat]

First game I went to was in in the early eighties after relegation from the top flight to see a team managed by a young manager (Peter Cormack), keen to learn from the mistakes he made as he got us relegated to ensure we return quickly to the top league. It only took another 10 years to get back to the top league, the first 2 seasons after relegation we were competitive, the next 5 we struggled to stay in the league as the financial impact of failing to return in the first 2 seasons kicked in.

Fast forward to our next relegation and we've been relegated under Murdo Mcleod an eager young manager, keen to learn from the mistakes made as he got us relegated to ensure we return quickly to the premier league. We give him a season to learn from his mistakes and we fail, financial impact kicks in, save the jags and we're another 6 seasons before we get back to the top flight.

Then we get relegated again in 2005 but its ok because we have an eager young management team, keen to learn from the mistakes made as they got us relegated to ensure we return quickly to the top league. Surprisingly that doesn't work so we don't get back to the top league for another 8 years.

So we're now in 2018 we've just been relegated but its ok because we have a young manager, keen to learn from the mistakes made as he got us relegated and we'll make a quick return to the top league........

[AndyMac]

I honestly think it would be best if Archie were to walk away now, with his head held high.

[thebiglemon]

I have never been a Sack Archie advocate..........until now. The team doesn't create pressure, chances or goals and has no chance of getting up next year.

Dodds and McIntyre??

[One t in Scotland]

Genuinely astounded that anybody would want to keep Archie and / or he's not been binned already. The performance on Thursday alone should be evidence enough - ranked high amongst the most inept / feeblest I've seen since the 80's.

[Auld Jag]

Reading these posts I feel there has been good reasons for both Archibald staying and going,is part of the problem the uncertainty of who we would get if he did go ?

Edited May 21, 2018 by Auld Jag

[flashman]

4 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

Reading these posts I feel there has been good reasons for both Archibald staying and going,is part of the problem the uncertainty of who we would get if he did go ?

Almost certainly. It would make sense to have at least 10-12 achievable targets for the manager and every other position, so that we have a good starting position wherever we need to recruit. Perhaps the club do have this already, but our transfer dealings would probably indicate that this is not the case.

[AndyMac]

9 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

Reading these posts I feel there has been good reasons for both Archibald staying and going,is part of the problem the uncertainty of who we would get if he did go ?

Ian McCall would steady the ship and would be a safe pair of hands. I believe he would get us back up in a couple of seasons with a rebuilt team.

Jim Goodwin,  was a pretty decent player in his hey day, however, what makes him special is that he will do whatever it takes to win. Even when he was well past his best, there was no huffing and puffing with Jim, no picking up an easy last pay day. He would of ran through a brick wall for St Mirren. Watching Goodwin play at Firhill during 2013/14, he won every single ball, every single header, not a single player in the Thistle team dared to challenge him.  Jim Goodwin, is the real deal; a winner. We would be crazy not to consider him for the job.

[jigjag]

Archie has to go. I cannot believe how nostalgic everyone has become in 24 hours. He obviously has lost the  changing room. I am sick and tired of watching him hands in pocket during the game and his constant monotone defence of the team post match. Along with his bizarre substitutions all season,  summed up with Booth coming on with 10 mins left with us needing 2 goals. A good manager not only motivates, but but also has needs to put a bit of fear into under performing players that if they don't perform they will be hooked or dropped. His constant Summer strategy of putting his eggs in one basket and us starting the season under resourced and playing catch up finally caught up with us this season. The Christmas bounce didn't work because rather than going into the transfer market and replacing the glaring obvious he decided we had half a team coming back from long time injuries. How did that work out?? Those of you that honestly believe that that he is going to suddenly change form and rebuild a team over 8 weeks that will get us straight back up are delusional. He relied on McCall's and McNamara's signings to get us up and keep us up. His own signings have been in the most part underwhelming.

[Auld Jag]

2 hours ago, AndyMac said:

Ian McCall would steady the ship and would be a safe pair of hands. I believe he would get us back up in a couple of seasons with a rebuilt team.

Jim Goodwin,  was a pretty decent player in his hey day, however, what makes him special is that he will do whatever it takes to win. Even when he was well past his best, there was no huffing and puffing with Jim, no picking up an easy last pay day. He would of ran through a brick wall for St Mirren. Watching Goodwin play at Firhill during 2013/14, he won every single ball, every single header, not a single player in the Thistle team dared to challenge him.  Jim Goodwin, is the real deal; a winner. We would be crazy not to consider him for the job.

McCall has said Thistle should stick with Archibald and he would not replace Archibald if Thistle sacked him.

[AndyMac]

2 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

McCall has said Thistle should stick with Archibald and he would not replace Archibald if Thistle sacked him.

In that case; I would go for Jim Goodwin.

[Legs Like A Spider]

All season, as things deteriorated, I have kept an open mind about Archibald’s future and haven’t really paid too much attention to the shenanigans on here.  In recent weeks, however, we all had to start thinking about the future and form an opinion.

For me the decision should be based on his personal performance over the past season and on that basis he should go.

There are too many unaccounted for failings:

·        Poor recruitment especially in the striking department.

·        Recruitment always at the tail end of transfer windows

·        Repeatedly blaming the players for not reacting to the opposition changing their shape. That’s his job.

·        Sticking with players that were off form.

·        Not giving younger players a chance. Only playing McCarthy against Celtic earlier in the season was bizarre. Not playing Penrice when he was struggling for players in that area was also strange.

·        The tactics in the first leg at Livingstone were a disgrace and it should have been addressed during the game.

·        In too many games the team lost their shape and they looked like 11 players just doing their own thing. Livingston has shown us what a manager can do with average players if everybody knows their role.

·        Team continually played at a slow tempo

·        Team not sure how to react to either scoring or losing a goal.

·        Team falling deeper and deeper into defence as games went on - especially when in the lead.

·        Team unable to keep sustained pressure on teams as they did to us.

·        Unprepared for the start of the Celtic Cup game.

·        Too loyal to players who were clearly not SPFL standard

 

I could go on

 

Despite everybody coming on the various threads and ripping into individual players most of them are very good and better that what I have watched over 40 years. It is largely the same players that took us into the top 6 last year and it was the managers job to ensure that they kept that level of performance up.  

 

If the board had any level of competence they would have a suitable replacement in their sights right now. What if Archie was to resign?? Trouble is I find it difficult to credit them with that level of competence. For that reason despite me thinking its best he goes I think he will still be here.

The idea that he gets a trial period to December is ridiculous. Either he goes now or he gets the whole of next season till his contract expires.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Ian McCall return as a replacement, he remains responsible for some of  the players who contributed most in recent games to keep us up. Unfortunately he has categorically ruled himself out of a return. Jim Duffy is not an improvement. Goodwin may be worth a punt.

If Alan does go it would be with my very best wishes and the hope that he could return one day a more experienced and better manager but right now he’s too big a risk going into the Championship. Not to come straight back up would be a disaster for the club financially and every other way.

Finally I would also say that if Archie is kept on I will support him and hope that he has learned a lot of lessons.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Legs Like A Spider

[allyo]

Good post. I may be falling on the other side but can't deny it's a fair argument. Agree that the trial period is not the way to go. 

[Fearchar]

Although Archie can be credited with coaching a team into defending well enough to gain and retain top-flight status for a while, it seems to me that some fundamental management skills have been lacking for a while, and they have been exposed by results: motivation, goalscoring, succession planning and team building. These aren't even unique to football management, but some success in coaching for defence cannot make up for the lack of them. If they haven't been learned in five years, it seems over-optimistic to think they will appear any time soon.

It may be that the club would benefit from having a less powerful chief executive and a more influential manager to replace the existing setup. A manager with an eye for team-building and with the final say on signings might be better suited to the second tier in any case.

 

[Jaggernaut]

Lots of persuasive arguments in this thread..... I no longer know what I think would be best!

Maybe I'm becoming Archie-like.

[a f kincaid]

Jim Goodwin - one of the best goalkeepers ever to play for St Mirren!

[Duke Gekantawa]

9 hours ago, AndyMac said:

Ian McCall would steady the ship and would be a safe pair of hands. I believe he would get us back up in a couple of seasons with a rebuilt team.

Jim Goodwin,  was a pretty decent player in his hey day, however, what makes him special is that he will do whatever it takes to win. Even when he was well past his best, there was no huffing and puffing with Jim, no picking up an easy last pay day. He would of ran through a brick wall for St Mirren. Watching Goodwin play at Firhill during 2013/14, he won every single ball, every single header, not a single player in the Thistle team dared to challenge him.  Jim Goodwin, is the real deal; a winner. We would be crazy not to consider him for the job.

If we do replace Archie, I would rather take a punt at an upcoming manager than someone like McCall.  McCall’s last season at this level ended in a dismal relegation, remember. I’m not sure of the relevance of Goodwin’s playing ability, mind. And much of what you said about Goodwin also applies to Archie as a player.

[Dick Dastardly]

I think that Legs Like a Spider has made some very valid points. I have always thought myself as an Archie backer, and there is no doubt that he has made some vast improvements in the fortunes of Thistle, 4 years in the top flight is the longest that I can remember in a very long time. In some ways he deserves a chance to address the mistakes made, however there are some failings that have been consistent in our entire time in the Premiership

Late goals. Every season we have dropped vital points as a result of late goals against us. How different it would have been if we had held onto leads in the back to back games against Hamilton and Dundee, and you could list dozens of games where we have thrown away vital points in the last 5 minutes. He has never addressed this and shows no signs of doing so.

The tactics have always been a ponderous buildup from the back, letting the opposition get their defenders back into position. This is fine if you are Barcelona and have attackers who can pull the defenders out of place and make the gaps, but we don't have those players. Too often we pass the ball sideways or backwards until someone runs out of ideas and throws in an aimless cross which a big defender eats upfor breakfast. It is far too predictable and rarely changes

We seem to create very few scoring chances and again this has been the case for several seasons. Too often we are begging for someone to have a pop at goal,but instead we try to walk it in. That maybe due to the tactics mentioned above and the Dundee game shows what can be done why we try something different. The one time that Lawless runs down the centre, rather than playing out wide, and we score. 

Defending crosses and set pieces. How often have we said that this should be bread and butter for 2 former defenders to sort out, but week after week, year after year we are left pulling our hair out at cheep goals conceded.

Finally, creative signings. Our most creative players are Erskine, Doolan and Lawless. All of them first signed by previous managers. I don't think that Archie has found one of his own.

As I said, Archie has done many good things and we should be grateful for what he has achieved, however in my view it is time for a fresh start for both Archie and the club. I'm sure that he can learn from the mistakes and I'm sure that he will goon to a successful career, however I think that both he and the club need some fresh thinking and a break now ould probably be best in the long term for both parties.

 

 

[javeajag]

It’s interesting to consider that Archie would know what to do to get us promoted but didn’t know what to do to stop us relegated.....I think some evidence rather than hope would be helpful to convince people of that 

this team is the worst of his managerial tenure and playing the worst football so how is he going to turn it round ?