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12 hours ago, AndyMac said:

Where we disagree, is whether the team Archie inherited was better that the ones he built.

So by that implication the players Archie released or left early into our spell in the top tier from the 2012/13 squad were replaced by poorer players. I'll leave Craig & Murray out as you could argue they were just in the squad to give the other players a bit of experience.

Muirhead, Craigen, McGuigan & Forbes were released. Paton & Erskine left followed by Fox & Balatoni. Surely at least seven of those were replaced by superior players? Would you seriously argue that Muirhead was better than Frans, Paton better than Osman? Balatoni & Fox superior to Lindsay & Cerny (or Gallacher)? I certainly wouldn't argue that we ever replaced SOD or ATS by equals, tho' Dumbuya & Booth often came close. But imo those two are the only exceptions.  

That leaves the league winning players that stayed for longer or are still with us. Are you saying Banzo didn't improve after Jan 13? Christie was better for only being able to play in an advanced position? Doolan, who has scored more goals in the top flight (and against every top division side he's played against), was more of a player under McNamara? 

I'd maintain that Archie by and large both replaced our league winning side with better quality and also got more out of those who remained, and of course against considerably tougher opposition.

Edited by lady-isobel-barnett
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8 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

So by that implication the players Archie released or left early into our spell in the top tier from the 2012/13 squad were replaced by poorer players. I'll leave Craig & Murray out as you could argue they were just in the squad to give the other players a bit of experience.

Muirhead, Craigen, McGuigan & Forbes were released. Paton & Erskine left followed by Fox & Balatoni. Surely at least seven of those were replaced by superior players? Would you seriously argue that Muirhead was better than Frans, Paton better than Osman? Balatoni & Fox superior to Lindsay & Cerny (or Gallacher)? I certainly wouldn't argue that we ever replaced SOD or ATS by equals, tho' Dumbuya & Booth often came close. But imo those two are the only exceptions.  

That leaves the league winning players that stayed for longer or are still with us. Are you saying Banzo didn't improve after Jan 13? Christie was better for only being able to play in an advanced position? Doolan, who has scored more goals in the top flight (and against every top division side he's played against), was more of a player under McNamara? 

I'd maintain that Archie by and large both replaced our league winning side with better quality and also got more out of those who remained, and of course against considerably tougher opposition.

But....but.....somethingsomething Henoc Mukendi.....somethingsomething stands with his arms folded. 

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22 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

So by that implication the players Archie released or left early into our spell in the top tier from the 2012/13 squad were replaced by poorer players. I'll leave Craig & Murray out as you could argue they were just in the squad to give the other players a bit of experience.

Muirhead, Craigen, McGuigan & Forbes were released. Paton & Erskine left followed by Fox & Balatoni. Surely at least seven of those were replaced by superior players? Would you seriously argue that Muirhead was better than Frans, Paton better than Osman? Balatoni & Fox superior to Lindsay & Cerny (or Gallacher)? I certainly wouldn't argue that we ever replaced SOD or ATS by equals, tho' Dumbuya & Booth often came close. But imo those two are the only exceptions.  

That leaves the league winning players that stayed for longer or are still with us. Are you saying Banzo didn't improve after Jan 13? Christie was better for only being able to play in an advanced position? Doolan, who has scored more goals in the top flight (and against every top division side he's played against), was more of a player under McNamara? 

I'd maintain that Archie by and large both replaced our league winning side with better quality and also got more out of those who remained, and of course against considerably tougher opposition.

LIB; you can pick out random players and try and build some sort of a case until you're blue in the face.

You can only play with the hand your dealt, and Archie inherited a very strong hand, which under his guidance was good enough to win the Championship.

We played good football during our first Premiership season, true, we flirted with relegation, nevertheless, we played many teams off the park and ended up with nothing, we were a bit naive, which for a newly promoted team with a rookie manager was only to be expected.

Over the next five seasons Archie shuffled the deck time and time again, the end result was him "building" a truly dire team that deserved to get relegated.

What would you rather have today, the squad from 2012/13 or the one we have now?

 

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1 hour ago, AndyMac said:

LIB; you can pick out random players and try and build some sort of a case until you're blue in the face.

I was hardly picking out random players when I named FIFTEEN of the league winning squad. There's no way we would have had remained in the top tier for as long as we did if Archie hadn't replaced most of these players and got better out of those still with us. That's hardly a ringing endorsement for the manager. I just cannot accept the Jags squad at Jan 2013 was superior to most of the squads assembled subsequently.

1 hour ago, AndyMac said:

Or, more to the point;

What would you rather have today, the squad from 2012/13, or the one we finished with last season?

but less to the point you were making earlier. 

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14 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Archie inherited an exciting young team, brimming over with vim and vigor.

Five years later he had fashioned a dull aging team, that was both fragile and lacklustre.

Think we will have to agree to disagree.

Fine with me but I can't imagine where you're coming from if you believe the squad at Jan 2013 was superior to any subsequent squad. 

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25 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Archie inherited an exciting young team, brimming over with vim and vigor.

Five years later he had fashioned a dull aging team, that was both fragile and lacklustre.

Think we will have to agree to disagree.

The point is that the team he built last season is not the only one he built. He built the one the season before that, and the one before that. And these were better than the one he inherited, which (going by the first season up) was only good enough for 10th (and then only on GD by a single goal if you discount Hearts’ deduction)- and that 10th almost certainly wouldn’t have been achieved without  bolstering by Mair and Taylor. In particular, for example, Muirhead  was nowhere near good enough.

It’s like a Nottingham Forest fan moaning about the team Clough built based only on his final season (relegation) rather than the glory in between. And before anyone thinks I’m comparing Archie to Clough,  I’m obviously not- just making a single point that it is quite wrong to consider the team a manager has built by only referencing one of the teams built (i.e., the last one) and ignoring the intervening teams.

Edited by Duke Gekantawa
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Cant prove it,but I think if our previous manager hadn't left we would not have been promoted 2012/13.Archie found  a way for us to win away from home and he was unbeaten in the 1stDiv.For all the seasons after that he improved us until last season which was terrible.He will hopefully sort it out this season,if he doesn't imo he will be gone.But for 41/2 seasons he done a very good job lets hope there is more to come.

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