Training Ground

[Jordanhill Jag]

4 hours ago, javeajag said:

No

So the bottom line is that no one actually knows how much is going to cost us - it was stated no more than we are currently paying - when asked about what if we get relegated there was no answer ( despite your statement to the contrary ) and funny enough I was listening - so we are totally at the behest of the Weirs 

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So the bottom line is that no one actually knows how much is going to cost us - it was stated no more than we are currently paying - when asked about what if we get relegated there was no answer ( despite your statement to the contrary ) and funny enough I was listening - so we are totally at the behest of the Weirs 

It’s christmas put the cynicism back in the box 

[Ruchillnomore]

I personally asked the question re relegation 18 months ago at the open day when Archie Ian maxwell and the current Chairman was in attendance would it have any impact on the training ground. All in attendance were given 100% assurance by the said panel that the training ground would go ahead regardless and relegation has no impact whatsoever. 

[Norgethistle]

3 hours ago, Ruchillnomore said:

I personally asked the question re relegation 18 months ago at the open day when Archie Ian maxwell and the current Chairman was in attendance would it have any impact on the training ground. All in attendance were given 100% assurance by the said panel that the training ground would go ahead regardless and relegation has no impact whatsoever. 

Going ahead with the Weirs paying for it, and us being relegated (maybe twice) and being able to afford the rent are two different things.

This is not Partick Thistle FC’s property, we will only be tennents as long as (a) We can afford it and pay it, (b.) we are welcome by the owners. 

If anything happens to our finances or the Weirs then all bets could be off, remember what happened with Clyde and the lease of Broodwood from the council, great to start with then as relegation set in they struggled to renegotiate the rent, and now struggle to even use it outwith match day, they’ve looked to move but the terms of lease make it almost impossible on their finances to do that.

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, javeajag said:

It’s christmas put the cynicism back in the box 

So we are clear - the Club is at risk of signing a long term lease that at some point we may not be able to afford and when asked there were vague responses to the effect that we should trust them ? 

How is that being cynical ? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

17 hours ago, Jaggernaut said:

Do you think the Weirs would finance a training ground "for Thistle" that the club might not be able to afford?

Its actually only Colin Weir as he is the sole shareholder of the Dev Company / they will be exoecting a long term lease / the terms of which have yet to be agreed - so we could be  doing a Clyde ref Broadwood - sounds good at the start then it kills you later as your circumstances change 

[Jaggernaut]

9 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So the bottom line is that no one actually knows how much is going to cost us - it was stated no more than we are currently paying - when asked about what if we get relegated there was no answer ( despite your statement to the contrary ) and funny enough I was listening - so we are totally at the behest of the Weirs 

And would you prefer that we were not "totally at the behest of the Weirs," given their record to date with regards to Thistle? Maybe I'm a bit dim, but it's not clear what you actually want.

[Jordanhill Jag]

28 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

And would you prefer that we were not "totally at the behest of the Weirs," given their record to date with regards to Thistle? Maybe I'm a bit dim, but it's not clear what you actually want.

100%  - its a massive risk to be at the behest of one man -who doesnt keep good health - any lease with the training ground has to reflect our income / when asked there was no clauses that reflected that at the time of the AGM 

We were doing ok before the Weir money and frankly it could be argued we have not progressed since we started getting it ? 

[Jaggernaut]

54 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

100%  - its a massive risk to be at the behest of one man -who doesnt keep good health - any lease with the training ground has to reflect our income / when asked there was no clauses that reflected that at the time of the AGM 

We were doing ok before the Weir money and frankly it could be argued we have not progressed since we started getting it ? 

Again, it's not at all clear to me from your posts what you actually want to happen, and what you think should happen. 

[AndyMac]

5 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

Again, it's not at all clear to me from your posts what you actually want to happen, and what you think should happen. 

Jordanhill Jag is concerned that we may be getting ourselves roped into something that we cannot afford in the medium to long term. He is yet to hear cast iron assurances from anyone that this is categorically not the case.

[Jordanhill Jag]

54 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Jordanhill Jag is concerned that we may be getting ourselves roped into something that we cannot afford in the medium to long term. He is yet to hear cast iron assurances from anyone that this is categorically not the case.

100% correct 

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, Jaggernaut said:

Again, it's not at all clear to me from your posts what you actually want to happen, and what you think should happen. 

What I think should happen is that the Club should be sustainable without hand outs - we were promoted and survived in the Premier on this basis - Im still trying to figure out exactly what we have benefitted from the Weir Cash -Hamilton Accies - Saint Johnstone Clubs that operate within budgets - why cant we ? 

[Jaggernaut]

And what should be done to make the club sustainable "without handouts"? Do you know how Accies and St Johnstone's budgets take shape? I thought that for several years we had been in pretty good financial shape, but our last manager appears to have squandered money on several duds, and crowds are going down as the current manager appears incapable of getting those duds to perform any better. 

[jlsarmy]

6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

What I think should happen is that the Club should be sustainable without hand outs - we were promoted and survived in the Premier on this basis - Im still trying to figure out exactly what we have benefitted from the Weir Cash -Hamilton Accies - Saint Johnstone Clubs that operate within budgets - why cant we ? 

You’re right as to what the benefits are ,the quodos of saying we’ve got an “ Academy “ ?

The Academy was set up in 2013 and the only meaningful results have been so far , Liam Lindsey who we sold for £250k  and James Penrice becoming a first team regular only this season 

There have been other players who have skirted about the first team McCarthy and Fitzpatrick but couldn’t been deemed as regulars in the first team.  

So over the last 5 years I believe there has been only glimpses what an Academy could produce, if it wasn’t for the Weirs investment of 500k a year for the last 5 years it would be unsustainable to invest in a project where there is little return.

The only conclusions you can make re the Academy is they’re only paying lip service to it or we’re actually not very good at it .

Not sure it’s a given that the Training Centre that the Weirs are muted to be building will be exclusively for PTFC , it sounds and looks to me it will be a commercial investment for the Weirs as well to try and get some return for the money they are investing.

Whether we can afford it if there is another relegation is debatable.

[KemoAvdiu]

7 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

What I think should happen is that the Club should be sustainable without hand outs - we were promoted and survived in the Premier on this basis - Im still trying to figure out exactly what we have benefitted from the Weir Cash -Hamilton Accies - Saint Johnstone Clubs that operate within budgets - why cant we ? 

Genuine question - as I think there’s a lot of validity to what you have to say. Should we have said no to the Weir money? 

[stolenscone]

Hi Jim - I hope you’re keeping well?

If I understand your concern correctly, it’s that the Club signs up to a long term lease at a rent which it can afford at the moment, but which, due to a change in circumstances, later becomes a millstone around it’s neck. You seem to accept that the Weirs are unlikely themselves to use this to drag the Club down, but Colin Weir’s health is poor, and it’s impossible to tell what the future holds.

If that is an accurate summary, then it’s a pretty easy fix: grant the training ground lease to a newly created subsidiary company which has no other assets and which is wholly owned by the Club. If things go well, fine. If they don’t and the subsidiary company can no longer keep up with the rent payments, then it goes into default, the lease (and the training ground) is taken away from it, but the Club itself isn’t the defaulting tenant and is insulated from the risk. Worst case, the Club loses its ability to use the training ground, which is exactly where it started from, so it’s no worse off. It’s not a difficult fix, provided the landlord is willing to accept a tenant with no financial covenant on Day 1 (and you seem to accept that we have a supportive prospective landlord at the moment).

To my mind, you raise a valid point, but it’s a point that should be easily addressed, provided the landlord is co-operative and the tenant is being properly advised.

Anyway Jim - best wishes to you and yours for the year ahead.

David

[Jaggernaut]

14 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

You’re right as to what the benefits are ,the quodos of saying we’ve got an “ Academy “ ?

The Academy was set up in 2013 and the only meaningful results have been so far , Liam Lindsey who we sold for £250k  and James Penrice becoming a first team regular only this season 

There have been other players who have skirted about the first team McCarthy and Fitzpatrick but couldn’t been deemed as regulars in the first team.  

So over the last 5 years I believe there has been only glimpses what an Academy could produce, if it wasn’t for the Weirs investment of 500k a year for the last 5 years it would be unsustainable to invest in a project where there is little return.

The only conclusions you can make re the Academy is they’re only paying lip service to it or we’re actually not very good at it .

Not sure it’s a given that the Training Centre that the Weirs are muted to be building will be exclusively for PTFC , it sounds and looks to me it will be a commercial investment for the Weirs as well to try and get some return for the money they are investing.

Whether we can afford it if there is another relegation is debatable.

The Weirs appear to be generous with their fortune, supporting a number of community projects with no obvious commercial returns. Although it would make nothing but sense to hope that there would be some income from the training centre so that it could be self-sustaining, I don't for a moment think that the Weirs are hoping to make any kind of profit from this. Does anybody know different?

Your point about how our team has benefited from the Academy is valid. I seem to remember some newspaper coverage about tens of millions of quid being invested in an elite football academy in England, and after years it had produced only one international player (Rooney). Maybe we're not alone in that respect.

[javeajag]

What have the weirs ever done for us ....

funded the best youth system we have ever had

cleared our debt 

got us out of the clutches of bank of Scotland 

made a fans group the largest single shareholder in the club

built us a training facility 

******** 

[jlsarmy]

3 minutes ago, javeajag said:

What have the weirs ever done for us ....

funded the best youth system we have ever had

cleared our debt 

got us out of the clutches of bank of Scotland 

made a fans group the largest single shareholder in the club

built us a training facility 

******** 

Yeah great and we’re now on course for back to back relegations !!

[javeajag]

9 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

What I think should happen is that the Club should be sustainable without hand outs - we were promoted and survived in the Premier on this basis - Im still trying to figure out exactly what we have benefitted from the Weir Cash -Hamilton Accies - Saint Johnstone Clubs that operate within budgets - why cant we ? 

Since you don’t know the deal the club has in the training ground but it has been  stated that it will be favourable to the club and will cost us no more than we pay already why no worry about more pressing matters like the pish on the park ?

but to be helpful 

we spend c £200k a year on renting and hiring training facilities ... for the same amount we get our own facility ... the weirs get their money back over 8-10 years 

If we get relegated again do we train less ? Get cheaper facilities ? Where ? How much do you think we can get away with not spending money on training arrangements ?

 

[javeajag]

2 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Yeah great and we’re now on course for back to back relegations !!

Ah if they had done none of the above we would be champions !

ludicrous post

[jlsarmy]

9 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Ah if they had done none of the above we would be champions !

ludicrous post

You’re painting a picture that all in the garden is rosy , it’s not , read between the lines , we own very little of the stadium ( asset stripped )so we are at the behest of Propco and their plans for the future, are we going to sustain our Club by relying on the Weirs money ? , pretty sure the Weirs won’t invest indefinitely so I would imagine there would have to be another business model to sustain our Club .

[Jaggernaut]

9 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

You’re painting a picture that all in the garden is rosy , it’s not , read between the lines , we own very little of the stadium ( asset stripped )so we are at the behest of Propco and their plans for the future, are we going to sustain our Club by relying on the Weirs money ? , pretty sure the Weirs won’t invest indefinitely so I would imagine there would have to be another business model to sustain our Club .

What's your solution? What can be done about Propco? I reckon zilch.

[javeajag]

37 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

You’re painting a picture that all in the garden is rosy , it’s not , read between the lines , we own very little of the stadium ( asset stripped )so we are at the behest of Propco and their plans for the future, are we going to sustain our Club by relying on the Weirs money ? , pretty sure the Weirs won’t invest indefinitely so I would imagine there would have to be another business model to sustain our Club .

well if the weirs hadn't cleared our 600k debt we would be financially better off....discuss

propco own the bing and have for how many years? if i was an investor in propoco it would rank as the worst deal i ever did but the club got £1m that you wouldn't want either ?

the weirs are in my view doing the right thing by not giving money just to fund players and given how much archie burned that has been a good move...they are helping the club infrastructure at a low cost to us

but by not having £1.6m, an academy and training centre we would be better off?

football fans cynical conspiracy theorists or what 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

You’re right as to what the benefits are ,the quodos of saying we’ve got an “ Academy “ ?

The Academy was set up in 2013 and the only meaningful results have been so far , Liam Lindsey who we sold for £250k  and James Penrice becoming a first team regular only this season 

There have been other players who have skirted about the first team McCarthy and Fitzpatrick but couldn’t been deemed as regulars in the first team.  

So over the last 5 years I believe there has been only glimpses what an Academy could produce, if it wasn’t for the Weirs investment of 500k a year for the last 5 years it would be unsustainable to invest in a project where there is little return.

The only conclusions you can make re the Academy is they’re only paying lip service to it or we’re actually not very good at it .

Not sure it’s a given that the Training Centre that the Weirs are muted to be building will be exclusively for PTFC , it sounds and looks to me it will be a commercial investment for the Weirs as well to try and get some return for the money they are investing.

Whether we can afford it if there is another relegation is debatable.

This is a great and worrying point.

To be clear, it is great Colin Weir has decided to invest/take an active interest in the club he supports. In addition he has given to so many causes, a modern day andrew carneigie? irrespective  in how he made his cash, I'm very grateful as a fan.

Has his investment made any great difference? Hard to tell, it's not held us back that's for sure.

Main point for me is that we as a club should NOT under any circumstances base any of our finances on what comes from Colin Weir. If something happens to him (we are all going to die some day) that involvement could be pulled by whoever takes receipt of his estate. Whoever inherits his estate might not give two  tuppence for thistle and walk away. Even if he includes some legal caveat. That could be challenged by the estate recipient. The club need to be careful. Remember gretna, dundee utd. Daddy thomson would have given his last penny to them but the son had other ideas. Just worth keeping this in mind. Though current board performance suggests they will progress / stumble blindly in good faith....