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scottish fitba management styles


TheBunnet
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Reading the Archie-McCoist-Modern player thread and if ‘modern players’ are tough to manage what management style is needed to reverse the currrent teams fortunes? 

We have two former thistle defenders who are the current custodians of the team and anyone watching this season can see we have problems with defending.  We have current players on jagzone saying it’s a positive dressing room even when they have a bad game.  We have a team that is inconsistent with its results so what needs to change? 

Do they need a boot up the rear as would have happened with the likes of Lambie and Gerry Collins or are modern players too soft to get the hair dryer treatment? 

Next part to the question, you have ex players or out of work managers working as pundits who are quick to say what’s needed at a club to get results.  Guys like Mccoist,  as a former striker didn’t exactly get his rangers team firing in loads of goals. Alex Rae on the radio every night professing how to fix Scottish football but can’t hold down a management job or get results when he is working as a manager.  Why do guys who we’re decent players in their generation find it hard to get the best out of their players from the next generation? 

Then you have guys  like Jim mcintyre who had their teams banging it long to strikers without success, Craig levein a former centre back has teams with defensive styles who counter attack and Jackie had the the thistle team playing attacking football similar to a style he would have enjoyed as an attacking fullback. 

So the question is, what type of style is needed to get the team winning games again? And what type of management is needed to get the best out of this current squad of ‘modern’ players and win more games? 

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4 minutes ago, TheBunnet said:

Why do guys who we’re decent players in their generation find it hard to get the best out of their players from the next generation? 

Not answering your question as such but it's not a new phenomenon only more obvious these days. I might be wrong but I think in the past fewer players bothered about progressing into football management/coaching. Nowadays, and again I could be wrong, but it looks like every club squad throws up two or three players who have aspirations to stay in the game. By the simplest of arithmetic across the board only one can succeed whilst another one or two wait eagerly in the wings. I don't believe this over provision is conducive to good management. Further compounded by the rather illogical fact that contracted players can only move on within a transfer window whereas managers can move or be removed at the drop of a hat. 

 

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I prescribe to the ar$e and kicking solution. 

Could we possibly describe Chic Charnley and the likes as the forerunners of the 'modern footballer' and I don't doubt that ar$e and kicking or at least the threat of it, helped to get the best out of him and many others by John Lambie.  

Lambie knew when to kick and when to cuddle but he had both skills in his managerial locker.  The proverbial Hair Dryer, Sir Eck, had an uncompromising reputation yet many past players speak very fondly of him in a fatherly way that would suggest an ability to nurture (cuddle?) when it was appropriate.

We have been missing a 'get right intae them' attitude for a while now.  Possibly last seen for real with Martin Hardie and poorly imitated by Abdul Osman.

As evidence I give you 5 fouls conceded on Saturday, including Ntambwe's effort in the box (possibly all of his efforts now that I think about it) against 16 committed by ICT to break up our game and kill any advantage we had in playing the better football.  (Stats according to BBC so not at all reliable but you'll get my drift)

 

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On 9/17/2018 at 11:13 PM, TheBunnet said:

what type of management is needed to get the best out of this current squad of ‘modern’ players and win more games? 

One mistake you see time and time again is the belief that a big name star player will become a top manager. This rarely works out unless heaps of cash are thrown at it.

Next up is the merry go round of mediocre managers, who seem to go from job to job, they tend to be a bit dull, speak in cliches and are very often far too deferential to players, the media and club directors.

So, the above two, are in my opinion the wrong type of managers for our club.

The right type? I was watching a documentary about Bill Shankly and how he took Liverpool from being the second team in Liverpool, to setting them on the road to being the greatest club team of their generation. If we could get a visionary and inspirational character such as Shankly, who actually sees and believes in; the massive potential of Thistle, we really would be on to a winner.

Look at what Jim McLean achieved at Dundee United, not only winning the Scottish league, but also beating Barcelona and B.M.G over two legs, taking his team to a major European Final. With the right set up we could be much bigger than Dundee United in their hey day.

So to answer you question; "what type of management is needed to get the best out of this current squad of ‘modern’ players and win more games?"

I would say that we need to get in a born leader, a win at all costs, anti establishment figure, that isn't bothered about ruffling a few feathers. Most importantly, we require a manager that truly recognises the huge potential of our club and will make it their life's work, in leading us to fulfill that potential.

On the other hand, we can continue to bumble about in ever decreasing circles until one sad day the inevitable finally happens.

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10 hours ago, AndyMac said:

One mistake you see time and time again is the belief that a big name star player will become a top manager. This rarely works out unless heaps of cash are thrown at it.

Next up is the merry go round of mediocre managers, who seem to go from job to job, they tend to be a bit dull, speak in cliches and are very often far too deferential to players, the media and club directors.

So, the above two, are in my opinion the wrong type of managers for our club.

The right type? I was watching a documentary about Bill Shankly and how he took Liverpool from being the second team in Liverpool, to setting them on the road to being the greatest club team of their generation. If we could get a visionary and inspirational character such as Shankly, who actually sees and believes in; the massive potential of Thistle, we really would be on to a winner.

Look at what Jim McLean achieved at Dundee United, not only winning the Scottish league, but also beating Barcelona and B.M.G over two legs, taking his team to a major European Final. With the right set up we could be much bigger than Dundee United in their hey day.

So to answer you question; "what type of management is needed to get the best out of this current squad of ‘modern’ players and win more games?"

I would say that we need to get in a born leader, a win at all costs, anti establishment figure, that isn't bothered about ruffling a few feathers. Most importantly, we require a manager that truly recognises the huge potential of our club and will make it their life's work, in leading us to fulfill that potential.

On the other hand, we can continue to bumble about in ever decreasing circles until one sad day the inevitable finally happens.

Debatable whether the Jim McLean/Dundee Utd blueprint would work today. He built that team mainly on youth progression, fueled by the then ability to hold youngsters to lengthy contracts. That in turn gave him considerable leverage enabling him to be a somewhat more feared figure than he would be today.  Also his era was pre Bosman, again a major assistance to his dictatorial management style.  

 I certainly don't disagree with your template for an ideal manager, just not sure Tannadice in the 80s is an ideal example.

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11 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Debatable whether the Jim McLean/Dundee Utd blueprint would work today. He built that team mainly on youth progression, fueled by the then ability to hold youngsters to lengthy contracts. That in turn gave him considerable leverage enabling him to be a somewhat more feared figure than he would be today.  Also his era was pre Bosman, again a major assistance to his dictatorial management style.  

 I certainly don't disagree with your template for an ideal manager, just not sure Tannadice in the 80s is an ideal example.

Very true, I don't think Jim McLean would fair too well in today's world. What he did achieve was remarkable though, taking a small provincial club to great heights over many many years. You are right though, you can no longer operate like that.

Brian Clough, could turn teams round very fast and get things out of players other managers couldn't. He also seemed to be able to get players to play for him and inspired loyalty in players like John McGovern, who was his captain at Hartlepool, Derby and Forest.

Bill Shankly, realised that a club was nothing without its supporters, and instilled in the players a genuine belief that they were privileged to play for the Liverpool support.

If we could get someone in of the caliber of Clough or Shankly, we would be doing alright.

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14 hours ago, AndyMac said:

Very true, I don't think Jim McLean would fair too well in today's world. What he did achieve was remarkable though, taking a small provincial club to great heights over many many years. You are right though, you can no longer operate like that.

Brian Clough, could turn teams round very fast and get things out of players other managers couldn't. He also seemed to be able to get players to play for him and inspired loyalty in players like John McGovern, who was his captain at Hartlepool, Derby and Forest.

Bill Shankly, realised that a club was nothing without its supporters, and instilled in the players a genuine belief that they were privileged to play for the Liverpool support.

If we could get someone in of the caliber of Clough or Shankly, we would be doing alright.

If a manager is of the right calibre, is he not more likely to be fired?

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