Lenziejag Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: On this logic no football team should ever sack a manager until their final league placing is mathematically certain or at least until it’s mathematically impossible for a manager to meet the board’s set objective. That is, as the kids say, “******* mental”. It’s like saying a car owner should wait until the front wheel has in fact fallen off before taking the car to the garage. To be fair if anyone gets sacked before it is clear the objective can’t be met, then I would seriously consider suing for unfair dismissal. Is the objective to win the league or get promotion. Anyway, I am getting drawn into whether he should be kept or not. I am unsure at this moment in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Legs Like A Spider said: Fans are starting to drift Another stat that is being bandied about to try to justify sacking the manager. Crowds are dwindling. There is no evidence of that so far. It seems to me that the home crowd at Firhill has been fairly consistent at about 2,400 compared to about 2,800 last season. Is that not to be expected dropping a division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 17 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: To be fair if anyone gets sacked before it is clear the objective can’t be met, then I would seriously consider suing for unfair dismissal. Is the objective to win the league or get promotion. Anyway, I am getting drawn into whether he should be kept or not. I am unsure at this moment in time. “Before it is clear” is not the same as “before it is mathematically certain”. The whole point is that, for a lot of fans, it is abundantly clear the stated objective won’t be met this season if the current management team and squad remains in full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: To be fair if anyone gets sacked before it is clear the objective can’t be met, then I would seriously consider suing for unfair dismissal. Is the objective to win the league or get promotion. Anyway, I am getting drawn into whether he should be kept or not. I am unsure at this moment in time. That's a good point, which got me thinking about why dumped managers don't go down that route. Maybe because it's written in their contract that it's up to the board's discretion about whether objectives look likely to be met? Edited October 2, 2018 by Jaggernaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 25 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said: That's a good point, which got me thinking about why dumped managers don't go down that route. Maybe because it's written in their contract that it's up to the board's discretion about whether objectives look likely to be met? Maybe they don’t usually get specific objectives. But Archie has been given one this season, which is to get us promoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Lenziejag said: Another stat that is being bandied about to try to justify sacking the manager. Crowds are dwindling. There is no evidence of that so far. It seems to me that the home crowd at Firhill has been fairly consistent at about 2,400 compared to about 2,800 last season. Is that not to be expected dropping a division. I would say 400 supporters not turning up is a pretty damning statistic on what’s on offer Lot of teams actually increase their crowds due to the team winning more often , Hibs being a prime example. How would you get the feel good factor back in to Firhill ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, jlsarmy said: I would say 400 supporters not turning up is a pretty damning statistic on what’s on offer Lot of teams actually increase their crowds due to the team winning more often , Hibs being a prime example. How would you get the feel good factor back in to Firhill ? Have you looked at the attendance change in previous years we have been relegated. 400 may or may not be normal. But that isn’t the point that is being made. Dwindling suggests to me continual decline. Getting the feel good factor back would be continuing getting our good results at Firhill and starting to win some points away from home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legs Like A Spider Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 5 hours ago, Lenziejag said: Another stat that is being bandied about to try to justify sacking the manager. Crowds are dwindling. There is no evidence of that so far. It seems to me that the home crowd at Firhill has been fairly consistent at about 2,400 compared to about 2,800 last season. Is that not to be expected dropping a division. A bit odd to cherry pick such a minor point and use it to question motives. Nobody is bandying anything about to try and get rid of the manager. If the manager was doing a good job the post wouldn’t even have been written. To be fair when I wrote the dwindling comment I was referring to my impression of our away crowds. There was a good crowd down at Ayr who were rewarded with a disgraceful performance. However, I felt there might normally have been more up at Dundee, Inverness and Dunfermline although I am basing this more on the flat atmosphere rather than numbers. I was also basing it on fans I talk to who are currently staying away. I finished by asking ‘Who is enjoying what they are watching at the moment and why would anybody with the good of the club at heart want us to keep going the way we are?’ Clearly you like what you see and are happy for things to continue, good luck to you for that. Personally, I want to see an entertaining, winning and successful Partick Thistle. If the current manager can provide this he should stay but right now he ain’t showing signs that he can achieve any of the above and therefore change is required. I’m not going to get involved in a head count to suggest anything. The proof of the pudding is what we see on the park and what the league table tells us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Legs Like A Spider said: A bit odd to cherry pick such a minor point and use it to question motives. Nobody is bandying anything about to try and get rid of the manager. If the manager was doing a good job the post wouldn’t even have been written. To be fair when I wrote the dwindling comment I was referring to my impression of our away crowds. There was a good crowd down at Ayr who were rewarded with a disgraceful performance. However, I felt there might normally have been more up at Dundee, Inverness and Dunfermline although I am basing this more on the flat atmosphere rather than numbers. I was also basing it on fans I talk to who are currently staying away. I finished by asking ‘Who is enjoying what they are watching at the moment and why would anybody with the good of the club at heart want us to keep going the way we are?’ Clearly you like what you see and are happy for things to continue, good luck to you for that. Personally, I want to see an entertaining, winning and successful Partick Thistle. If the current manager can provide this he should stay but right now he ain’t showing signs that he can achieve any of the above and therefore change is required. I’m not going to get involved in a head count to suggest anything. The proof of the pudding is what we see on the park and what the league table tells us. You are making the mistake of thinking that because I disagree with something you write, I disagree with everything. If I remember your post correctly you suggested that the board were being negligent if they didn’t take action because of dwindling crowds. Why should they care about how many Thistle fans travel away ? I replied to this bit of your post, because there have been a few posters making this assertion. It seems to me to be fake news so far. I actually think that for the most part of our home games we have performed pretty well and more importantly have got the right results. Edited October 2, 2018 by Lenziejag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legs Like A Spider Posted October 2, 2018 Report Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Lenziejag said: You are making the mistake of thinking that because I disagree with something you write, I disagree with everything. If I remember your post correctly you suggested that the board were being negligent if they didn’t take action because of dwindling crowds. Why should they care about how many Thistle fans travel away ? I replied to this bit of your post, because there have been a few posters making this assertion. It seems to me to be fake news so far. I actually think that for the most part of our home games we have performed pretty well and more importantly have got the right results. The crowds weren't really a big part of the post. The board are being negligent for not acting as the fans are paying a lot of money to be served shite home and away, The recent three home games are possibly just papering over cracks and have been against some of the poorer teams in the league. Anyway, we got some good news today so lets just wait and see how things pan out although I remain extremely worried about the state of my club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 9 hours ago, Legs Like A Spider said: The crowds weren't really a big part of the post. The board are being negligent for not acting as the fans are paying a lot of money to be served shite home and away, The recent three home games are possibly just papering over cracks and have been against some of the poorer teams in the league. Anyway, we got some good news today so lets just wait and see how things pan out although I remain extremely worried about the state of my club. More fake news ? The crowds comment was the 2nd item in your post. Usually a sign that it is important. The teams we played at Firhill ? Falkirk, I grant you are not the best. Morton were 2nd and QOS had been scoring for fun - taking 5 off the league leaders and have a player who has already scored 20 + this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 13 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: More fake news ? The crowds comment was the 2nd item in your post. Usually a sign that it is important. The teams we played at Firhill ? Falkirk, I grant you are not the best. Morton were 2nd and QOS had been scoring for fun - taking 5 off the league leaders and have a player who has already scored 20 + this season. Fake news if you hold by the Donald Trump definition. We won our home games by the odd goal. Morton had just lost their manager and couldn't adjust their tactics to counter us. We came behind twice against QoS. A better offensive showing but still poor defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 The biggest prefecture of football success is the amount you pay players so the larger your playing budget the higher your chances of success... this is based in research at the university of Chicago and The Economist .... that’s why Huddersfield are where they are and Man City are where they are of course it’s not a mechanical causal relationship as other factors play their part but it’s generally true we underperformed last year given our relative resources and we are currently underperforming even more this year whereas Ayr are over performing ... our budget is in the top 3 of this league our team isn’t variable ? The manager Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Murray Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 11 hours ago, Legs Like A Spider said: The crowds weren't really a big part of the post. The board are being negligent for not acting as the fans are paying a lot of money to be served shite home and away, The recent three home games are possibly just papering over cracks and have been against some of the poorer teams in the league. Anyway, we got some good news today so lets just wait and see how things pan out although I remain extremely worried about the state of my club. 2 Shite away yes but home?? Really just silly comment. We have played great stuff at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Lenziejag said: You are making the mistake of thinking that because I disagree with something you write, I disagree with everything. If I remember your post correctly you suggested that the board were being negligent if they didn’t take action because of dwindling crowds. Why should they care about how many Thistle fans travel away ? I replied to this bit of your post, because there have been a few posters making this assertion. It seems to me to be fake news so far. I actually think that for the most part of our home games we have performed pretty well and more importantly have got the right results. “Fake news” isn’t something you can just bandy about because you don’t think *the extent of* a decline in crowds is significant. Indeed, you’ve literally proved it’s a fact that crowds are dwindling if your own numbers are true. Whether it’s something to worry about isn’t a question of fact or fiction but a judgment call. And yes, the Club should be worrying if it’s hardcore support isn’t turning out in the same numbers and the same levels of enthusiasm even if away from home. Because the *reason why* will eventually filter through into reduced gate sales at Firhill and fewer season tickets getting sold. That would make next year even harder than this, assuming we haven’t already been relegated. Echoing the comments above I think you are adopting a Trumpian definition of fake news so that instead of it meaning “things that are presented as true things that are actually happening but which are demonstrably not true/not happening” it means “something which is factually accurate, but which the people I disagree with are making a bigger deal out of than I think is justified.” Edited October 3, 2018 by Woodstock Jag 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.D Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 19 hours ago, Lenziejag said: Another stat that is being bandied about to try to justify sacking the manager. Crowds are dwindling. There is no evidence of that so far. It seems to me that the home crowd at Firhill has been fairly consistent at about 2,400 compared to about 2,800 last season. Is that not to be expected dropping a division. I would have thought that dropping a division would lead to increasing crowds due to expectation of winning more matches. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 20 hours ago, Lenziejag said: Another stat that is being bandied about to try to justify sacking the manager. Crowds are dwindling. There is no evidence of that so far. It seems to me that the home crowd at Firhill has been fairly consistent at about 2,400 compared to about 2,800 last season. Is that not to be expected dropping a division. A 15% drop in core customer is alarming for any business. As others have mentioned usually dropping down a league adds a bit of expectation of better games, more chance of a win, being able to challenge for something so will see a small bump in home attendances, the problem this season is we’re still crap especially away from home, our football isn’t generally entertaining (still hanging on for a result, or being beaten on the road). I know of at least 10 that have chucked it this season, due to the lack of entertainment and the manager still being in charge, I’m sure folk on here know others. it would be interesting to see ST figures and how they compare, I know a lot of people who’ve not renewed this season for various reasons, but how many new ST have replaced them? We are also about to get into the crappy weather season, cold, damp, windy when crowds get hit especially if the product on offer is poor, folk find it easier to stay in the house/pub or spend their cash on other things, if results go wrong next few weeks this will only accelerate this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 At times in recent seasons when we were doing relatively well I can mind being disappointed with the size of the home crowd. Perhaps results and even league status have less of an effect on attendances than we think? If that be the case then the sale of season tickets is even less likely to be affected by performances. I've little to support that theory but I don't recall hearing about a spike in ST sales over last summer. After just missing out the previous season we had just secured a top six position. The feel good factor had kicked in and there was genuine optimism about us having our best squad since circa 2002. I'd have thought ST sales should've increased dramatically. If they were up I'm fairly sure it was only a marginal increase. I'm not saying that results on the park don't have an effect on turnout. Just feel there's far more to it than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenski Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 I know of one avid supporter who's not going to matches as often this season because he can't be bothered with the negativity of fellow supporters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 5 hours ago, scotty said: Fake news if you hold by the Donald Trump definition. We won our home games by the odd goal. Morton had just lost their manager and couldn't adjust their tactics to counter us. We came behind twice against QoS. A better offensive showing but still poor defensively. Wow - you are at the fake news too. Mortons manager left on the Thursday night, so they had the full week just about to prepare. Also, the official score was 1-0, but have you forgotten Doolans ghost goal already ? Are you really saying that the performance vs QOS was poor ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 3 hours ago, javeajag said: The biggest prefecture of football success is the amount you pay players so the larger your playing budget the higher your chances of success... this is based in research at the university of Chicago and The Economist .... that’s why Huddersfield are where they are and Man City are where they are of course it’s not a mechanical causal relationship as other factors play their part but it’s generally true we underperformed last year given our relative resources and we are currently underperforming even more this year whereas Ayr are over performing ... our budget is in the top 3 of this league our team isn’t variable ? The manager And the previous seasons ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: “Fake news” isn’t something you can just bandy about because you don’t think *the extent of* a decline in crowds is significant. Indeed, you’ve literally proved it’s a fact that crowds are dwindling if your own numbers are true. Whether it’s something to worry about isn’t a question of fact or fiction but a judgment call. And yes, the Club should be worrying if it’s hardcore support isn’t turning out in the same numbers and the same levels of enthusiasm even if away from home. Because the *reason why* will eventually filter through into reduced gate sales at Firhill and fewer season tickets getting sold. That would make next year even harder than this, assuming we haven’t already been relegated. Echoing the comments above I think you are adopting a Trumpian definition of fake news so that instead of it meaning “things that are presented as true things that are actually happening but which are demonstrably not true/not happening” it means “something which is factually accurate, but which the people I disagree with are making a bigger deal out of than I think is justified.” The Thistle attendance dropped from a premiership base to a championship base. But there has been no continual reduction of that base so far. Which was my definition of dwindling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 4 hours ago, javeajag said: The biggest prefecture of football success is the amount you pay players so the larger your playing budget the higher your chances of success... this is based in research at the university of Chicago and The Economist .... that’s why Huddersfield are where they are and Man City are where they are of course it’s not a mechanical causal relationship as other factors play their part but it’s generally true we underperformed last year given our relative resources and we are currently underperforming even more this year whereas Ayr are over performing ... our budget is in the top 3 of this league our team isn’t variable ? The manager Is that really the only variable you can think of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruchillnomore Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 To be fair it’s probably quite an important one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 I would agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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