Attack home or away

[cyprusjag]

As there’s not much in the way of discussion thought I would ask a question that genuinely puzzles me.Why is it that most posters on here would advocate all out attack at Firhill against say ,Falkirk, but if it’s at Brockville recommend a cautious approach.

I can understand  caution against teams considering better than you but given that most teams are on a par with each other  with a few exceptions,why don’t we just adopt a policy of all out attack home and away.

Just askin’ like.

[Paulo]

That is the main thing that puzzled me about Archie's tactics, especially away from home in this division.  It seemed that our main focus was to set up to counter the other team's strengths, instead of playing to our own strengths and making them worry about us. 

[Woodstock Jag]

For some grounds our tactics will be informed by whether it’s a wide or narrow pitch, but as to the general point I agree: the idea of shutting up shop because you’re away from home is a nonsense.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

6 hours ago, Paulo said:

That is the main thing that puzzled me about Archie's tactics, especially away from home in this division.  It seemed that our main focus was to set up to counter the other team's strengths, instead of playing to our own strengths and making them worry about us. 

 

6 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

For some grounds our tactics will be informed by whether it’s a wide or narrow pitch, but as to the general point I agree: the idea of shutting up shop because you’re away from home is a nonsense.

If our away tactics had been backed up with a lot of creditable draws then I could see the sense in a sort of containing approach. We still would have to have been either sharp on the break or dangerous in attacking set plays to eke out a result. That is and was two attributes that of late we've lacked.

One of our strengths was possession. With one or two unfortunate exceptions we hadn't a team easy to dispossess. But that's been only a strength for us when we've had a lead or maybe an away point to protect.  To turn possession into a positive we needed to move the ball about a lot quicker. The sideways passing hasn't been the real problem, it's the ponderous way it's been carried out that's been the principal sin.  Away from home the urgency factor drops even further to a near pedestrian level. 

[BalornockJag]

Copy the Man Utd fan set up and shout attack attack attack at games now instead of the score when we want song? Might work 

[Auld Jag]

3 hours ago, BalornockJag said:

Copy the Man Utd fan set up and shout attack attack attack at games now instead of the score when we want song? Might work 

The amount of goals we have scored over the last few seasons, we really shouldn't be singing the score when we want song.

[BalornockJag]

That’s true 

[allyo]

Totally with you. It's 22 guys on a football pitch somewhere in Scotland. Just go and beat them.

[Jag]

18 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

 

If our away tactics had been backed up with a lot of creditable draws then I could see the sense in a sort of containing approach. We still would have to have been either sharp on the break or dangerous in attacking set plays to eke out a result. That is and was two attributes that of late we've lacked.

One of our strengths was possession. With one or two unfortunate exceptions we hadn't a team easy to dispossess. But that's been only a strength for us when we've had a lead or maybe an away point to protect.  To turn possession into a positive we needed to move the ball about a lot quicker. The sideways passing hasn't been the real problem, it's the ponderous way it's been carried out that's been the principal sin.  Away from home the urgency factor drops even further to a near pedestrian level. 

This.

I often wonder if the anti sideways brigade have ever played a game of football or turn the television off when Barcelona. Liverpool or Manchester City are playing.

Possession football  can be good to watch and the ball doesn't always have to go forward. Kris Doolan's equaliser v Queen of the South was a perfect example of great possession play with sideways and backwards passing, resulting in a fine team goal. This, sadly,  hasn't been the norm though and the problem, as you point out, is the speed we have been doing it over the last couple of seasons. Slow  paced, with very few options available to move it quickly, mainly resulting in a backwards pass to a defender for them to punt an aimless ball up the park to our vertically challenged strikers.  The lack of urgency or desire to get men forward has been the most frustrating thing to watch.  

If you look back to our title winning season, we played great possession football and our movement off the ball was the key. Overlapping full backs and midfielders willing to go beyond the strikers. The goal tallies of Chris Erskine and Stevie Lawless will back that up. Pretty sure Ross Forbes chipped in with a few that season as well.  Look at the assists provided by O'Donnell and ATS, I don't remember too many people complaining about sideways passing back then.

Gary Caldwell is an advocate of possession football and he will be keen to get us playing in what he sees is the best way. Hopefully this will lead to improved results but my worry is that we don't have playing squad at the moment with the ability to do this. Time will tell.

[Jag]

I always talk about a game in the early nineties,  although I don't remember the opposition. 0-0 with a few minutes to go and Thistle are passing the ball about between midfield and defence. The guy standing beside me is screaming "Get the baw up the f*ckin' park!" Another few passes and he's screaming again, even louder, veins bulging. "F*ckin launch it!!"Eventually Gordon Rae gets the ball, midway inside the Thistle half and lumps a high hopeful ball up the park, which is easily cleared by the opposition's defence.

Same guy - "Who the f*ck was that tae ya prlck?!!"

[Duke Gekantawa]

2 hours ago, Jag said:

If you look back to our title winning season, we played great possession football and our movement off the ball was the key. Overlapping full backs and midfielders willing to go beyond the strikers. The goal tallies of Chris Erskine and Stevie Lawless will back that up. Pretty sure Ross Forbes chipped in with a few that season as well.  Look at the assists provided by O'Donnell and ATS, I don't remember too many people complaining about sideways passing back then. 

 

Actually, even in the title season, and particularly under McNamara, there was a real problem with slow, ponderous sideways build up away from home. I recall away games to Falkirk and Dumbarton being particularity brutal in this respect.  Our away form that season when McNamara left was (I think) bottom three.

[Norgethistle]

6 hours ago, Jag said:

This.

I often wonder if the anti sideways brigade have ever played a game of football or turn the television off when Barcelona. Liverpool or Manchester City are playing.

Possession football  can be good to watch and the ball doesn't always have to go forward. Kris Doolan's equaliser v Queen of the South was a perfect example of great possession play with sideways and backwards passing, resulting in a fine team goal. This, sadly,  hasn't been the norm though and the problem, as you point out, is the speed we have been doing it over the last couple of seasons. Slow  paced, with very few options available to move it quickly, mainly resulting in a backwards pass to a defender for them to punt an aimless ball up the park to our vertically challenged strikers.  The lack of urgency or desire to get men forward has been the most frustrating thing to watch.  

If you look back to our title winning season, we played great possession football and our movement off the ball was the key. Overlapping full backs and midfielders willing to go beyond the strikers. The goal tallies of Chris Erskine and Stevie Lawless will back that up. Pretty sure Ross Forbes chipped in with a few that season as well.  Look at the assists provided by O'Donnell and ATS, I don't remember too many people complaining about sideways passing back then.

Gary Caldwell is an advocate of possession football and he will be keen to get us playing in what he sees is the best way. Hopefully this will lead to improved results but my worry is that we don't have playing squad at the moment with the ability to do this. Time will tell.

Possession football is only good if you do something with it, if winning stops them attacking you, if chasing probing for a break.

What we do is side to side for a bit then to the wing with a cross to no one as no one chases up

[laukat]

When we got promoted and when we played the early years in the premier league we had more variation in our play. We used to play balls down the channels between fullback and centre back as well as play possesion football. That meant the opposition central defenders got dragged out of position and created spaced in the centre.

We were doing this up until we had Azeez and Dooan up front but dropped it last year as we tried to keep possession and minimise the defensive duties of our weak midfield. This season we have stayed in that rut and most teams we play against drop deep and stay in position beacuse they know we don't have the players to open them up.

Beyond varying the play we need to be able to regain position when the opposition attack and move the ball forward faster. The amount of times we get the ball in midfield and then stop and play it back to the defence is mind numbly high. Turnovers of possession are the best attacking opportunities but our team see's turnovers as a chance to regroup rather than a chance to attack.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

11 hours ago, Jag said:

If you look back to our title winning season, we played great possession football and our movement off the ball was the key. Overlapping full backs and midfielders willing to go beyond the strikers. The goal tallies of Chris Erskine and Stevie Lawless will back that up. Pretty sure Ross Forbes chipped in with a few that season as well.  Look at the assists provided by O'Donnell and ATS, I don't remember too many people complaining about sideways passing back then.

Spot on but you missed out an important factor. That whole quick movement of the ball was generated from the back. I'd be stupid to argue that we didn't replace Fox and Balatoni with better players. What we never regained tho' was that urgency in recycling. Instead we witnessed Cerny lying on the ball before either launching it in the vague direction of a where a hold up centre forward should be if he existed or eventually chucking the ball to the likes of Seaborne to punt God knows where. Ok, it got better occasionally but I don't believe we ever fed our midfielders or overlapping fullbacks again at real pace for any sustained period. 

[Jaggernaut]

13 hours ago, Jag said:

I always talk about a game in the early nineties,  although I don't remember the opposition. 0-0 with a few minutes to go and Thistle are passing the ball about between midfield and defence. The guy standing beside me is screaming "Get the baw up the f*ckin' park!" Another few passes and he's screaming again, even louder, veins bulging. "F*ckin launch it!!"Eventually Gordon Rae gets the ball, midway inside the Thistle half and lumps a high hopeful ball up the park, which is easily cleared by the opposition's defence.

Same guy - "Who the f*ck was that tae ya prlck?!!"

Haha, sounds like the kind of thing I might come out with. 

[marcia blaine]

On 10/25/2018 at 4:38 PM, BalornockJag said:

Copy the Man Utd fan set up and shout attack attack attack at games now instead of the score when we want song? Might work 

I always felt the “come on Thistle” song was a slightly more polite version of this.