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Caldwell and Low update from PTFC


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2 minutes ago, allyo said:

Low and Britton getting an awful lot of stick. Some of it probably warranted but let's face it, if the team was doing better they'd be under a lot less scrutiny. So for all that the PR may be poor or the Chesterfield statement embarrassing, it's really their choice of manager that is letting them down. 

So i admit there's an element of devil's advocate here, but (without benefit of hindsight obviously) was Caldwell such a bad appointment? At the time I was cautiously optimistic. His previous record wasn't great but he's young enough to learn, he's worked at a high level with good people, he obviously gave a good interview (for all it's been ridiculed since), probably demonstrated fresh ideas and hunger to succeed, and wasn't one of the "usual suspects" that so many on here were so keen to avoid. He seemed at the time to tick a lot of boxes; and when you look back at the forum the appointment was generally welcomed.

In their position you have to make a decision and hope for the best. It hasn't worked out, but since the appointment the team performance had been entirely out of their hands. 

So questioning and criticism is valid. But my question is, are they really to blame for the shambles we've become?  To the (at times vitriolic) level that seems to be the consensus on this forum? 

A good post but one I would challenge on a few fronts.

Firstly, you’re correct that the managerial choice is the main decision that is coming under scrutiny. Many people did welcome the appointment, but many others were very concerned that Caldwell has a record that didn’t stand up to a great deal of scrutiny. Promotion achieved with Wigan? Yes, but with a large budget. He then went on to fail with them and fail with Chesterfield. I’d argue that he absolutely was one of the usual suspects, given he had been punting himself for every job going since getting sacked by Chesterfield. 

It isn’t just his record, though, but also how he appears to approach management. He is on record (both prior to his appointment and since) as saying that he had a fixed idea on how the game should be played and will not deviate from that. That’s fantastic if you’re manager of Manchester City or Barcelona, but it doesn’t really cut it if you’re managing Partick Thistle and have Sean McGinty on your books. The failure to change or adapt system was one of Archie’s failings, and Caldwell clearly displayed and continues to display the same failing. Appointing him shows that lessons were not learned. 

Secondly, the PR stuff. To me this stuff is actually really important. What we put out there in terms of club statements etc. say everything about who we are as a club, but also say a lot about what the board think of the supporters. Telling us we are making great progress and that promotion is still the aim does nothing but show us that the board think we are idiots. This then feeds into the general apathy that seems to shroud us at the moment, and has a direct impact on the park. 

The Chesterfield bit in the club statement announcing Caldwell’s appointment showed us a few things. Firstly that whoever was responsible for the statement (I presume the chairman) does not understand football or understand the total disrespect the statement showed to another club. And secondly that whoever was responsible for the statement thinks we are idiots and can’t simply look at his record/a Chesterfield forum to see whether what was said is correct.

These things might seem minor but they exemplify a wider issue of the complete disconnect that exists between those of us facing up to the reality of the situation we are in (the supporters) and those who are not (the manager and chairman/board). 

Added to this is the whole issue of the fans trust, whereby it is the largest shareholder but has no place on the board. What is it for? What does it do? Where is the trust now that there is clearly growing concerns about the direction that we are heading? This is not a criticism of those involved. It was established by the club and therefore has to operate within these constraints. But it’s yet more evidence of the disconnect between the rhetoric (greater communications, empowerment of fans etc) and the reality (a pat on the head from the club with no actual power to do or change anything). 

There’s no room for vitriol and we need to avoid personal attacks (I hope my post has managed to do that but apologies if not), but the glaring issues with our club at the moment go way beyond just the managerial appointment. 

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4 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

allyo makes valid points. L & B aren't exactly the first chair/chief exec pairing to appoint a dud manager. Indeed they're joining a big club in regards to that. I hope any criticism of them I make is specific like the "Chesterfield" statement rather than simple generalisations. 

Absolutely. We are a club with a long and proud history of dud appointments, but that means we are expert in identifying such duddery when we see it. I do think the issues go way beyond this appointment though. 

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Caldwell and Jacqui need emptied NOW before they take us to a new low.

The problems within the club go back further than them, both previous chair and manager are responsible too for this mess, but the 2 current heads of our club are ensuring we are on a fastrack to financial and league status catastrophe.  The money that has been squandered by AA over the past few years, the last board and now this current one, is frightening scandalous, especially in relation to how far we have fallen in such a short space of time.  The thought of even more money being wasted under GC and JL and finding ourselves in an even worse position come summer 2019 is terrifying.

Move heaven and earth to get McCall, yes he is doing exceptionally well with Ayr and has chance of promotion to top tier, but there have been precedents in past where managers have left clubs near top of league for clubs languishing in lower end of same league.  He has a massive love and affinity for Thistle, and while he may not get us up this season with what we have in terms of squad, it would be much more achievable next season in this league, than what it would be if we keep GC, as we'll be in League One trying to get back to where we are now.

McCall would be welcomed, backed in numbers of support, so the club coffers will see increase in revenue from gates and likely other commercial avenues where fans buy into backing the McCall Revolution.  McCall could come in now as he isn't taking his pals job, steady the ship, instill a much better belief and players playing for the jersey and him, than any current or incoming players will do for the arrogant GC, and get better results out of the current squad than what GC will ever manage  Caldwell was the wrong appointment at the time, and this vanity project of Lows has not worked and will not work, everyone can see it now except her and her few remaining sycophants unfortunately.

I am but one of many who have drifted from attending regularly, gave up season ticket too, the past couple of years have been horrendous torture, and the dwindling number of match attendees will only continue to drop while GC and JL are in charge at OUR club.  This current situation cannot continue. Full stop. No argument. You are both killing this club. Taking us back to dark days of DJ, BL, Murder Mc, and others I'd prefer to forget. The club has massive infastructure problems in how its run and who runs it, the bleeding has to stop before its too late and we end up dicking around in League One being part time for years and losing the potential we saw that we as a club can be, before we let the archibald era drag on too long.

 

So, I repeat, get them both emptied before the year is out, thanks for your efforts blah blah, but neither of you are nowhere near up to it, goodbye.

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51 minutes ago, north stander said:

Caldwell and Jacqui need emptied NOW before they take us to a new low.

The problems within the club go back further than them, both previous chair and manager are responsible too for this mess, but the 2 current heads of our club are ensuring we are on a fastrack to financial and league status catastrophe.  The money that has been squandered by AA over the past few years, the last board and now this current one, is frightening scandalous, especially in relation to how far we have fallen in such a short space of time.  The thought of even more money being wasted under GC and JL and finding ourselves in an even worse position come summer 2019 is terrifying.

Move heaven and earth to get McCall, yes he is doing exceptionally well with Ayr and has chance of promotion to top tier, but there have been precedents in past where managers have left clubs near top of league for clubs languishing in lower end of same league.  He has a massive love and affinity for Thistle, and while he may not get us up this season with what we have in terms of squad, it would be much more achievable next season in this league, than what it would be if we keep GC, as we'll be in League One trying to get back to where we are now.

McCall would be welcomed, backed in numbers of support, so the club coffers will see increase in revenue from gates and likely other commercial avenues where fans buy into backing the McCall Revolution.  McCall could come in now as he isn't taking his pals job, steady the ship, instill a much better belief and players playing for the jersey and him, than any current or incoming players will do for the arrogant GC, and get better results out of the current squad than what GC will ever manage  Caldwell was the wrong appointment at the time, and this vanity project of Lows has not worked and will not work, everyone can see it now except her and her few remaining sycophants unfortunately.

I am but one of many who have drifted from attending regularly, gave up season ticket too, the past couple of years have been horrendous torture, and the dwindling number of match attendees will only continue to drop while GC and JL are in charge at OUR club.  This current situation cannot continue. Full stop. No argument. You are both killing this club. Taking us back to dark days of DJ, BL, Murder Mc, and others I'd prefer to forget. The club has massive infastructure problems in how its run and who runs it, the bleeding has to stop before its too late and we end up dicking around in League One being part time for years and losing the potential we saw that we as a club can be, before we let the archibald era drag on too long.

 

So, I repeat, get them both emptied before the year is out, thanks for your efforts blah blah, but neither of you are nowhere near up to it, goodbye.

North Stander , you make some great points especially re infrastructure, paying lip service to the Academy and the Reserve team , therefore denying any pathway for the youngsters to the first team . In terms of Jaquie Lowe , I thought she got involved with PTFC at the behest of the Weirs to protect their investment ? but I maybe wrong on that.

In terms of Ian McCall , I’m pretty sure he would improve us at this moment and he’s probably overachieving a bit with Ayr United.

My memory is possibly a bit longer than some , when Ian McCall left the last time the Club was an absolute shambles and there was a clamour for him to go before he actually resigned .

Part of the problem was his personal circumstances which are well documented, and he’s done well to turn his life around.

Still think we’re looking for someone to join everything up Academy, Reserve Team and First Team , not sure if McCall is the right man to implement that .

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3 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

allyo makes valid points. L & B aren't exactly the first chair/chief exec pairing to appoint a dud manager. Indeed they're joining a big club in regards to that. I hope any criticism of them I make is specific like the "Chesterfield" statement rather than simple generalisations. 

Most ptfc chairman have appointed duff managers !

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49 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Most ptfc chairman have appointed duff managers !

But not too many have released statements saying the appointed manager was lied to by previous club (in writing) and that explains his record there, nor been hyperbolic when announcing the appointment. 

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2 hours ago, javeajag said:

Most ptfc chairman have appointed duff managers !

I don't know about most, but some have and just reading TJR's stat page made me shudder reading some of the names. The thing is after appointing a manager who seems not to be working out is what is the best way to minimise the damage to the club. Have we given him a watertight 2 year contract, with no get out clauses, if he is not as good as he made out to be in his interview ? If we have I don't think we can afford to pay him off, since we are still paying the previous management team. If we do go down, how much will that cost and if he has a watertight 2 year contract would he still be manager if we got relegated? If we cannot sack him our only hope is he manages what Jack Ross did at St.Mirren a few years ago and turn the team round totally after the January window. He kept them in the league and then promotion the following season.  A lot of questions but only a few at Firhill know the answers.

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3 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

I don't know about most, but some have and just reading TJR's stat page made me shudder reading some of the names. The thing is after appointing a manager who seems not to be working out is what is the best way to minimise the damage to the club. Have we given him a watertight 2 year contract, with no get out clauses, if he is not as good as he made out to be in his interview ? If we have I don't think we can afford to pay him off, since we are still paying the previous management team. If we do go down, how much will that cost and if he has a watertight 2 year contract would he still be manager if we got relegated? If we cannot sack him our only hope is he manages what Jack Ross did at St.Mirren a few years ago and turn the team round totally after the January window. He kept them in the league and then promotion the following season.  A lot of questions but only a few at Firhill know the answers.

Biggest thing for me is the style of play we’re adopting , seems to like playing 3/5 at the back and this has drifted down to the 18s and reserve teams as well . I totally get what he’s trying to do but bottom line you’ve got to adapt the team to the players you’ve got at your disposal till you get own players in . So in my opinion to make this system work you’ve got have have at least 1 ball playing Centre half to join in with the midfield at times , you’ve also got to have 2 wing backs to bomb on to give the team width , not sure I would define Penrice or Christie as wing backs. 

That’s why we’ve become a sterile unit , not creating chances , easy to defend against with all our play in front of the opposition and that also leads to us getting pinned back when the perceived 3 at the back becomes a five with 1 or 2 holding midfielders as well .

A different manager would sort this out in a month.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Biggest thing for me is the style of play we’re adopting , seems to like playing 3/5 at the back and this has drifted down to the 18s and reserve teams as well . I totally get what he’s trying to do but bottom line you’ve got to adapt the team to the players you’ve got at your disposal till you get own players in . So in my opinion to make this system work you’ve got have have at least 1 ball playing Centre half to join in with the midfield at times , you’ve also got to have 2 wing backs to bomb on to give the team width , not sure I would define Penrice or Christie as wing backs. 

That’s why we’ve become a sterile unit , not creating chances , easy to defend against with all our play in front of the opposition and that also leads to us getting pinned back when the perceived 3 at the back becomes a five with 1 or 2 holding midfielders as well .

Ian McCall would sort this out in a month.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

Biggest thing for me is the style of play we’re adopting , seems to like playing 3/5 at the back and this has drifted down to the 18s and reserve teams as well . I totally get what he’s trying to do but bottom line you’ve got to adapt the team to the players you’ve got at your disposal till you get own players in . So in my opinion to make this system work you’ve got have have at least 1 ball playing Centre half to join in with the midfield at times , you’ve also got to have 2 wing backs to bomb on to give the team width , not sure I would define Penrice or Christie as wing backs. 

That’s why we’ve become a sterile unit , not creating chances , easy to defend against with all our play in front of the opposition and that also leads to us getting pinned back when the perceived 3 at the back becomes a five with 1 or 2 holding midfielders as well .

A different manager would sort this out in a month.

 

 

We are playing almost exactly the same formation/style as Archie did. That's my biggest criticm of Caldwell. Nothing has changed. As I said before the team needs a total overhaul. Until that happens no manager can get more out this group. Not even jim Goodwin......

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Realistically, what are the board expecting Caldwell to have delivered by the end of the season? 4th for a play off? 8th to escape relegation/ play off? Or 5th - 7th? 

Low mentioned Archie had a points tally to achieve by a certain number of games and didn’t. Presumably Caldwell has been told what it is he needs to do as a minimum.

I guess whatever the board may have targeted might be irrelevant given that the majority of fans have no faith in Caldwell. Fine if he turns things around and finishes 4th. But even mid table I suspect will not convince many. Under those circumstances if the board failed to ditch him come the end of the season they may face a rebellion of sorts e.g. very poor season ticket sales for the beginning of next season. Given that we would have burned through a bundle of money this season still paying Archie and Shaggy, then wasting more on Caldwell, having your fans not willing to put their hands in their pockets could be decisive. 

Just throw in Ayr failing to achieve promotion this season and having sold their best players and McCall thinking he’d taken them as far as he could....

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1 hour ago, JAG1970 said:

Realistically, what are the board expecting Caldwell to have delivered by the end of the season? 4th for a play off? 8th to escape relegation/ play off? Or 5th - 7th? 

Low mentioned Archie had a points tally to achieve by a certain number of games and didn’t. Presumably Caldwell has been told what it is he needs to do as a minimum.

I guess whatever the board may have targeted might be irrelevant given that the majority of fans have no faith in Caldwell. Fine if he turns things around and finishes 4th. But even mid table I suspect will not convince many. Under those circumstances if the board failed to ditch him come the end of the season they may face a rebellion of sorts e.g. very poor season ticket sales for the beginning of next season. Given that we would have burned through a bundle of money this season still paying Archie and Shaggy, then wasting more on Caldwell, having your fans not willing to put their hands in their pockets could be decisive. 

Just throw in Ayr failing to achieve promotion this season and having sold their best players and McCall thinking he’d taken them as far as he could....

Since our previous management team was sacked because they were not expected to get promotion, I take it Caldwell was hired to get us promotion. It would now take some sort of miracle for that to happen. If Caldwell did turn it around and we ended up in mid table, I would be quite happy to give him at least another season to see if we could get/challenge for promotion. I really don't have much faith in him turning it around, although I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

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51 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I always prefer a manager who has a clear system of play and recruits and develops players that fit into it 

playing a system with the players you have is to me an inferior approach 

It could be that Caldwell is a poor mans Archibald 

The last 18months with Archie in charge was terrible, but before that he done a very good job for us. Cant see Caldwell ever coming close to what Archie done, with us or any other team.

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13 hours ago, allyo said:

Low and Britton getting an awful lot of stick. Some of it probably warranted but let's face it, if the team was doing better they'd be under a lot less scrutiny. So for all that the PR may be poor or the Chesterfield statement embarrassing, it's really their choice of manager that is letting them down. 

So i admit there's an element of devil's advocate here, but (without benefit of hindsight obviously) was Caldwell such a bad appointment? At the time I was cautiously optimistic. His previous record wasn't great but he's young enough to learn, he's worked at a high level with good people, he obviously gave a good interview (for all it's been ridiculed since), probably demonstrated fresh ideas and hunger to succeed, and wasn't one of the "usual suspects" that so many on here were so keen to avoid. He seemed at the time to tick a lot of boxes; and when you look back at the forum the appointment was generally welcomed.

In their position you have to make a decision and hope for the best. It hasn't worked out, but since the appointment the team performance has been entirely out of their hands. 

So questioning and criticism is valid. But my question is, are they really to blame for the shambles we've become?  To the (at times vitriolic) level that seems to be the consensus on this forum? 

fair points - however it very much depends on how many and the quality of the other candidates that were interviewed as we were told the standard of applicant was very high - if thats the case why Caldwell as his previous record was questionable 

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11 hours ago, north stander said:

Caldwell and Jacqui need emptied NOW before they take us to a new low.

The problems within the club go back further than them, both previous chair and manager are responsible too for this mess, but the 2 current heads of our club are ensuring we are on a fastrack to financial and league status catastrophe.  The money that has been squandered by AA over the past few years, the last board and now this current one, is frightening scandalous, especially in relation to how far we have fallen in such a short space of time.  The thought of even more money being wasted under GC and JL and finding ourselves in an even worse position come summer 2019 is terrifying.

Move heaven and earth to get McCall, yes he is doing exceptionally well with Ayr and has chance of promotion to top tier, but there have been precedents in past where managers have left clubs near top of league for clubs languishing in lower end of same league.  He has a massive love and affinity for Thistle, and while he may not get us up this season with what we have in terms of squad, it would be much more achievable next season in this league, than what it would be if we keep GC, as we'll be in League One trying to get back to where we are now.

McCall would be welcomed, backed in numbers of support, so the club coffers will see increase in revenue from gates and likely other commercial avenues where fans buy into backing the McCall Revolution.  McCall could come in now as he isn't taking his pals job, steady the ship, instill a much better belief and players playing for the jersey and him, than any current or incoming players will do for the arrogant GC, and get better results out of the current squad than what GC will ever manage  Caldwell was the wrong appointment at the time, and this vanity project of Lows has not worked and will not work, everyone can see it now except her and her few remaining sycophants unfortunately.

I am but one of many who have drifted from attending regularly, gave up season ticket too, the past couple of years have been horrendous torture, and the dwindling number of match attendees will only continue to drop while GC and JL are in charge at OUR club.  This current situation cannot continue. Full stop. No argument. You are both killing this club. Taking us back to dark days of DJ, BL, Murder Mc, and others I'd prefer to forget. The club has massive infastructure problems in how its run and who runs it, the bleeding has to stop before its too late and we end up dicking around in League One being part time for years and losing the potential we saw that we as a club can be, before we let the archibald era drag on too long.

 

So, I repeat, get them both emptied before the year is out, thanks for your efforts blah blah, but neither of you are nowhere near up to it, goodbye.

Even if McCall considered a move - I doubt very much he would be prepared to work with some of the current Board Members - its fair to say Thistle are unfinished business for him - but no chance he will move unless there was radical change - personal relationships at a Club are important to him - hence is Loyalty to the Ayr Chairman - it took Dundee Utd four attempts too get him to move from Falkirk 

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12 hours ago, allyo said:

If we finish mid table then the team will have been transformed. I'll be on board. I really don't think it's going to happen

Just to put it in context, mid-table in this league is likely to be around 48 points. To achieve this we would require 34 points from 17 games, equivalent to 9 wins, 7 draws and 1 defeat. 

Anyone fancy our chances? That's the mess we're in. 

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