Caldwell and Low update from PTFC

[Auld Jag]

6 minutes ago, Ember said:

38 points in 18 games

We can only dream about that these days.

[AndyMac]

15 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Unfortunately I think it comes down to finances , paying up Archie’s and Shaggys contracts and Caldwell’s. as well would make a huge dent in the accounts but that’s got to be weighed up if there is a possibility of relegation and the consequences that would bring and also the loss of revenue which is a major factor .

Agree with what you say JLS.

On the vote on this forum, rightly or wrongly, there seems to be about 9 to 1 that think Gary Caldwell should be shown the door with immediate effect.

I would prefer Jim Goodwin to Ian McCall, but it's a marginal preference, I would be delighted with either.

Ian McCall is (IMO) one of the outstanding managers of his generation. What he achieved at Clydebank, in dire financial circumstances was truly remarkable. He has a proven record that stands scrutiny. I also believe that McCall has yet to Fulfill his full potential as a manager and has underachieved in what he's capable of delivering. He also recognises the massive potential of Thistle as a club (not that many do). I think Ian McCall at the very least would steer the ship to safety. At best, McCall could lead us to much greater success.

Jim Goodwin's record so far is very good for the recoures at his disposal.  He too would almost certainly help us avoid the drop. He may take a little while to get us promoted, a season or two, but nevertheless, I would be fairly certain that he would get us up and keep us up.  He is very professional, won't put up with any nonsense and doesn't take any prisoners. I think he has the potential to take the club right out the doldrums and ultimately to a much higher level.

If we want change now, we as supporters are going to have to rally around and provide alternative solutions to the status quo, either of these two managers, IMO, would be excellent. However, time is of the essence and the club really has to act sooner rather than later.

To show Gary Caldwell the door may cost a chunk of money, but as you say JLS, we have to balance it up with the cost of continued apathy and/or relegation.

Either of these managers would immediately bring extra bodies through the turnstile's, so that's a financial bonus that should be accounted for.

Success breeds success, just as much as failure breeds failure.

 

 

[jlsarmy]

19 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Agree with what you say JLS.

On the vote on this forum, rightly or wrongly, there seems to be about 9 to 1 that think Gary Caldwell should be shown the door with immediate effect.

I would prefer Jim Goodwin to Ian McCall, but it's a marginal preference, I would be delighted with either.

Ian McCall is (IMO) one of the outstanding managers of his generation. What he achieved at Clydebank, in dire financial circumstances was truly remarkable. He has a proven record that stands scrutiny. I also believe that McCall has yet to Fulfill his full potential as a manager and has underachieved in what he's capable of delivering. He also recognises the massive potential of Thistle as a club (not that many do). I think Ian McCall at the very least would steer the ship to safety. At best, McCall could lead us to much greater success.

Jim Goodwin's record so far is very good for the recoures at his disposal.  He too would almost certainly help us avoid the drop. He may take a little while to get us promoted, a season or two, but nevertheless, I would be fairly certain that he would get us up and keep us up.  He is very professional, won't put up with any nonsense and doesn't take any prisoners. I think he has the potential to take the club right out the doldrums and ultimately to a much higher level.

If we want change now, we as supporters are going to have to rally around and provide alternative solutions to the status quo, either of these two managers, IMO, would be excellent. However, time is of the essence and the club really has to act sooner rather than later.

To show Gary Caldwell the door may cost a chunk of money, but as you say JLS, we have to balance it up with the cost of continued apathy and/or relegation.

Either of these managers would immediately bring extra bodies through the turnstile's, so that's a financial bonus that should be accounted for.

Success breeds success, just as much as failure breeds failure.

 

 

All your points are valid , not sure this going to work out the way the a good lot of the supporters want . If they’re going to sack him they would have to do it after Saturday’s game against Dundee United, therefore letting the new manager get some of his own signings in.

Apart from the nonsense we’re watching on the park and the soundbytes we’re getting from Caldwell, Low and Britton there is a disconnection between the supporters and Gary Caldwell which he’ll never recover from.

The 2 managers you mentioned Goodwin and McCall would certainly change that with their honesty about the game and get the fans behind them.   The one negative I’ve got with both these managers is there isn’t a proven track record in terms of youth development but I’m sure if they were told that was part of their remit and with the right coaches about them that could be sorted  out .

The more pressing problem is making sure we stay in the division , another relegation would be a disaster for the Club 

[Auld Jag]

47 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Agree with what you say JLS.

On the vote on this forum, rightly or wrongly, there seems to be about 9 to 1 that think Gary Caldwell should be shown the door with immediate effect.

I would prefer Jim Goodwin to Ian McCall, but it's a marginal preference, I would be delighted with either.

Ian McCall is (IMO) one of the outstanding managers of his generation. What he achieved at Clydebank, in dire financial circumstances was truly remarkable. He has a proven record that stands scrutiny. I also believe that McCall has yet to Fulfill his full potential as a manager and has underachieved in what he's capable of delivering. He also recognises the massive potential of Thistle as a club (not that many do). I think Ian McCall at the very least would steer the ship to safety. At best, McCall could lead us to much greater success.

Jim Goodwin's record so far is very good for the recoures at his disposal.  He too would almost certainly help us avoid the drop. He may take a little while to get us promoted, a season or two, but nevertheless, I would be fairly certain that he would get us up and keep us up.  He is very professional, won't put up with any nonsense and doesn't take any prisoners. I think he has the potential to take the club right out the doldrums and ultimately to a much higher level.

If we want change now, we as supporters are going to have to rally around and provide alternative solutions to the status quo, either of these two managers, IMO, would be excellent. However, time is of the essence and the club really has to act sooner rather than later.

To show Gary Caldwell the door may cost a chunk of money, but as you say JLS, we have to balance it up with the cost of continued apathy and/or relegation.

Either of these managers would immediately bring extra bodies through the turnstile's, so that's a financial bonus that should be accounted for.

Success breeds success, just as much as failure breeds failure.

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

All your points are valid , not sure this going to work out the way the a good lot of the supporters want . If they’re going to sack him they would have to do it after Saturday’s game against Dundee United, therefore letting the new manager get some of his own signings in.

Apart from the nonsense we’re watching on the park and the soundbytes we’re getting from Caldwell, Low and Britton there is a disconnection between the supporters and Gary Caldwell which he’ll never recover from.

The 2 managers you mentioned Goodwin and McCall would certainly change that with their honesty about the game and get the fans behind them.   The one negative I’ve got with both these managers is there isn’t a proven track record in terms of youth development but I’m sure if they were told that was part of their remit and with the right coaches about them that could be sorted  out .

The more pressing problem is making sure we stay in the division , another relegation would be a disaster for the Club 

2 Very goods post. We as fans though are at the mercy of the board. None of us knows what sort of contract Caldwell has with regard to performance related clauses. If they have put these clauses in , he must be failing badly. Only time will tell.

[jlsarmy]

20 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

 

2 Very goods post. We as fans though are at the mercy of the board. None of us knows what sort of contract Caldwell has with regard to performance related clauses. If they have put these clauses in , he must be failing badly. Only time will tell.

I don’t think Caldwell will have performance related clauses in his contract apart from bonuses if he got promotion . He obviously gave a good interview and on his CV would have been Celtic captain , 50 caps for Scotland, promotion for Wigan , all in all it probably looked as if it’s ticked all the boxes for a team at our level and was probably seen as a catch because of the level he had played and coached at .

If we had looked at it properly, you would have seen the 2 relegations , the style of play that we would adopt and the “ it isn’t my fault “ culture which was prevalent at Chesterfield.

 

[Auld Jag]

15 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

I don’t think Caldwell will have performance related clauses in his contract apart from bonuses if he got promotion . He obviously gave a good interview and on his CV would have been Celtic captain , 50 caps for Scotland, promotion for Wigan , all in all it probably looked as if it’s ticked all the boxes for a team at our level and was probably seen as a catch because of the level he had played and coached at .

If we had looked at it properly, you would have seen the 2 relegations , the style of play that we would adopt and the “ it isn’t my fault “ culture which was prevalent at Chesterfield.

 

If the board didn't look at the 2 relegations, particularly the diabolical record he had at Chesterfield ,they have put the future of our club at risk.

[allyo]

6 hours ago, Ember said:

38 points in 18 games

Don't think so. Happy new year! 

[allyo]

6 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

Agree with you. We did have 3 games in hand and the Cowdenbeath fog machine to help us.

How come I have no likes at the start of a new year? All the best AJ

[Auld Jag]

19 minutes ago, allyo said:

How come I have no likes at the start of a new year? All the best AJ

Thanks allyo. All the best to you. Lets hope 2019 is the year of the Jags and not the medical type that sting a bit.

[Jordanhill Jag]

16 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

If the board didn't look at the 2 relegations, particularly the diabolical record he had at Chesterfield ,they have put the future of our club at risk.

Thats a very valid point and combined with the embarrassing statement about his time at Chesterfield seriously questions the amount of due diligence carried out - we have two former proffesional Football Players in key management and board positions - surely they used contacts to check things - or did we just get blown away by his powerpoint ?   

[jaf]

20 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

If the board didn't look at the 2 relegations, particularly the diabolical record he had at Chesterfield ,they have put the future of our club at risk.

FOUR relegations I count him having a part in!

Wigan 2014/5 - 23rd when appointed with 5 games to go - 4 points in those 5 games meant they were relegated with a whimper in the same 23rd position

Wigan 2015/6 - promotion

Wigan 2016/7 - signed 14 of his 'own players' in the summer, but then sacked after 14 games with club in 23rd position with only 2 wins in first 14 games - interestingly they only lost 1 of the 4 after he left - eventually relegated in 23rd place 

Chesterfield 2016/7 - took over in January - Chesterfield had won 4 of the previous 9 league games and were only in relegation zone on goal difference; Gary Caldwell was permitted to sign 6 players in the remainder of the window, but the team slumped to bottom place (ie fell 3 places with him in charge), winning only 2 of the remaining 19 league games.

Chesterfield 2017/8 - after signing 17 of his own players in the summer, the team slumped to 23rd in league with only 5 points from first 8 games, and Caldwell was then sacked. The club were eventually relegated.

 

Partick Thistle 2018/9 - took over with club in 8th place, results have been worse than previous incumbent and now we sit 9th, and 3 points adrift of safety - but don't worry he is about to do the signing players in a window trick that has worked out so well for him before...…...

Edited to add : you didn't need contacts in the game to know any of this; I found it out 5 minutes after Caldwell was first linked to us - Wikipedia!

Edited January 1, 2019 by jaf

[elevenone]

53 minutes ago, jaf said:

FOUR relegations I count him having a part in!

Wigan 2014/5 - 23rd when appointed with 5 games to go - 4 points in those 5 games meant they were relegated with a whimper in the same 23rd position

Wigan 2015/6 - promotion

Wigan 2016/7 - signed 14 of his 'own players' in the summer, but then sacked after 14 games with club in 23rd position with only 2 wins in first 14 games - interestingly they only lost 1 of the 4 after he left - eventually relegated in 23rd place 

Chesterfield 2016/7 - took over in January - Chesterfield had won 4 of the previous 9 league games and were only in relegation zone on goal difference; Gary Caldwell was permitted to sign 6 players in the remainder of the window, but the team slumped to bottom place (ie fell 3 places with him in charge), winning only 2 of the remaining 19 league games.

Chesterfield 2017/8 - after signing 17 of his own players in the summer, the team slumped to 23rd in league with only 5 points from first 8 games, and Caldwell was then sacked. The club were eventually relegated.

 

Partick Thistle 2018/9 - took over with club in 8th place, results have been worse than previous incumbent and now we sit 9th, and 3 points adrift of safety - but don't worry he is about to do the signing players in a window trick that has worked out so well for him before...…...

Edited to add : you didn't need contacts in the game to know any of this; I found it out 5 minutes after Caldwell was first linked to us - Wikipedia!

Grim reading.

[Auld Jag]

1 hour ago, jaf said:

FOUR relegations I count him having a part in!

Wigan 2014/5 - 23rd when appointed with 5 games to go - 4 points in those 5 games meant they were relegated with a whimper in the same 23rd position

Wigan 2015/6 - promotion

Wigan 2016/7 - signed 14 of his 'own players' in the summer, but then sacked after 14 games with club in 23rd position with only 2 wins in first 14 games - interestingly they only lost 1 of the 4 after he left - eventually relegated in 23rd place 

Chesterfield 2016/7 - took over in January - Chesterfield had won 4 of the previous 9 league games and were only in relegation zone on goal difference; Gary Caldwell was permitted to sign 6 players in the remainder of the window, but the team slumped to bottom place (ie fell 3 places with him in charge), winning only 2 of the remaining 19 league games.

Chesterfield 2017/8 - after signing 17 of his own players in the summer, the team slumped to 23rd in league with only 5 points from first 8 games, and Caldwell was then sacked. The club were eventually relegated.

 

Partick Thistle 2018/9 - took over with club in 8th place, results have been worse than previous incumbent and now we sit 9th, and 3 points adrift of safety - but don't worry he is about to do the signing players in a window trick that has worked out so well for him before...…...

Edited to add : you didn't need contacts in the game to know any of this; I found it out 5 minutes after Caldwell was first linked to us - Wikipedia!

 

6 minutes ago, elevenone said:

Grim reading.

Indeed. But if the rumours on the transfer window thread is true , we are bringing in at least 1 player before Saturday. If so I think we will be stuck with him until the end of this season. They say you learn from your mistakes , going from his past record he has made plenty. Lets hope he has learned from them.

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, Auld Jag said:

 

Indeed. But if the rumours on the transfer window thread is true , we are bringing in at least 1 player before Saturday. If so I think we will be stuck with him until the end of this season. They say you learn from your mistakes , going from his past record he has made plenty. Lets hope he has learned from them.

Harkins

1 from Derry

1 other before Saturday 

[Caramaca]

26 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Harkins

1 from Derry

1 other before Saturday 

Pretty sure you also said Banzo would be away in Jan

[Sinistar]

According to GC, it was a relief when Wigan were relegated -

"We tried everything to stay up, but the reality was that it was going to be extremely difficult. It was almost a relief when we did get relegated, because then we could really start to think about the next season. "  (interview here )

GC commenting on his time at Chesterfield -

" Very early on at Chesterfield, it felt like I was caught in a negative cycle that I couldn’t get out of ."

---

Comments from the Chesterfield fans forum,  summarised here,  tell us everything we need to know.

Some examples -

" Feel sorry for the (Jags) fans, an awful, awful excuse of a manager. "

 

"Partick thistle are third bottom. Lump on them being relegated."

 

"One of the worst managers Town have had with some shocking player recruitment. Good luck to Partick Thistle, they'll need it."

 

"Gary Caldwell terrible Manager. Actually should never work in a Football again."

 

"As for Caldwell, what a chancer.  Ten years ago I watched the Jags for the only time and the crowd turned on their manager in style with 'Campbell, Get Tae F**k' chanted over and over. It might not be long before Caldwell gets the same."

 

"Spent some time with an ex Town player in the week who said how bad Caldwell was cold with players and disconnected with the people around the club completely. Was very very disliked at Wigan by his fellow team mates."

 

"Maybe we can have a pre season double header against them next season, playing for the 'Victims of Caldwell' Trophy."

 

 "... he's now talking about the January window. Stand by for a bunch of kids and wasters on their way down."

 

---

 

Chesterfield Director Ashley Carson - "Gary has worked very hard during his time at the club, but we find ourselves in a lowly position after providing him with substantial backing in the transfer market. After making a very poor start to the season, we feel that now is the time to appoint a new manager to bring about a change in fortunes." (from here)

 

---

 

"Insisting the Firhill board were 'blown away' by Caldwell during the interview process, Thistle chair Jacqui Low is convinced the club have landed the man to take them back to the top flight.

'The appointment of Gary comes at the end of a rigorous selection process, which we believe has resulted in the best candidate for the job being named as our new manager,' Low said.

'Gary is a driven individual with a clear vision and plan to succeed - a new face our rivals may not expect and will not be prepared for. The board also wanted to bring in someone the players would respect for his achievements. With his track record both as a player and as a manager, we believe Gary is that man.

'We were blown away by Gary's interview preparation and, in the space of a week, he had done an analysis of each player, identified a training schedule to deal with the fitness levels and pulled together a vision of how to get Thistle playing well enough to secure promotion.

'Put simply, he plans to build a strong defence that allows us to then push forward and play attacking football. Gary's proposals were detailed and realistic. The high degree of clarity and organisation with which Gary shared his views was a significant factor in him being chosen as the preferred candidate.'  (from here)

---

We are sleepwalking into back to back relegations leaving this charlatan in charge. I will never forget the day of our last 2 in a row relegation it was horrific.

The blame for our current horror show imo lies firmly with J-Lo - everything points to her falling for his smooth talking guffery and now she is backing her blue eyed boy (with the clubs cash) to the bitter end purely to save face and because she still believes. Well I don't Jacqui and neither does anyone else.  Everything about Caldwell is wrong and the evidence against him is stacking up. How many warnings do we need? The latest rumour about Erkskine leaving (if it comes true) will be the final straw for me. Caldwell needs to go and if J-Lo doesn't have the insight to see this and get rid now,  then she needs to go too.

 

[AndyMac]

Excellent post Sinistar.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Playing the Devil's Dick Advocaat with Sinistar here. Can we escape 9th/10th place by........ 

1/ Sacking Caldwell immediately (always assuming this is contractually feasible and not financially crippling)?

2/Appointing someone within the Club as a temp manager?

3/Effecting a very limited transfer window. More or less continuing with the squad currently signed up to and past May 18?

Personally my gut feeling hasn't really changed since last Saturday, just less kneejerk. I'd sack Caldwell immediately and appoint Allison, Scott Paterson or Doolan (any combo of) as interim manager and assistant I'd be less open to employing an out of work manager as they wouldn't know who they're working with. Time would be against them.  

I really believe that dismissing the present manager, bringing in another permanent manager and also still strengthening the squad this month is a pipe dream. Unless of course our Chair and Chief Exec are a couple of steps ahead (another pipe dream, methinks). Gotta say that whatever anyone thinks of our current Board/Chief Exec/Chair I don't envy them just now. They'd be heavily criticised for sacking Caldwell, either for not giving him more time (nest of vipers MKII) or for appointing him in the first place. Do nothing and the fan resentment imo will further grow to intolerable levels.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

7 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Excellent post Sinistar.

Hey, Andy. You forgot to mention Jim Goodwin! 

[AndyMac]

2 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Hey, Andy. You forgot to mention Jim Goodwin! 

Beam me up Scotty

[fenski]

15 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Playing the Devil's Dick Advocaat with Sinistar here. Can we escape 9th/10th place by........ 

1/ Sacking Caldwell immediately (always assuming this is contractually feasible and not financially crippling)?

2/Appointing someone within the Club as a temp manager?

3/Effecting a very limited transfer window. More or less continuing with the squad currently signed up to and past May 18?

Personally my gut feeling hasn't really changed since last Saturday, just less kneejerk. I'd sack Caldwell immediately and appoint Allison, Scott Paterson or Doolan (any combo of) as interim manager and assistant I'd be less open to employing an out of work manager as they wouldn't know who they're working with. Time would be against them.  

I really believe that dismissing the present manager, bringing in another permanent manager and also still strengthening the squad this month is a pipe dream. Unless of course our Chair and Chief Exec are a couple of steps ahead (another pipe dream, methinks). Gotta say that whatever anyone thinks of our current Board/Chief Exec/Chair I don't envy them just now. They'd be heavily criticised for sacking Caldwell, either for not giving him more time (nest of vipers MKII) or for appointing him in the first place. Do nothing and the fan resentment imo will further grow to intolerable levels.

I agree. It's much the same scenario as the summer - to recruit a new manager and rebuild a squad within the one window is just not feasible. So in the summer I supported keeping Archibald on and focussing entirely on rebuilding/preparing the squad for the Championship. That approach obviously didn't work, so now I agree we should get rid of Caldwell, who has had sufficient time to prove beyond doubt that he is not going to change things, and finding a manager capable of getting more out of the existing squad with a few minor changes.

[AndyMac]

17 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Playing the Devil's Dick Advocaat with Sinistar here. Can we escape 9th/10th place by........ 

1/ Sacking Caldwell immediately (always assuming this is contractually feasible and not financially crippling)?

2/Appointing someone within the Club as a temp manager?

3/Effecting a very limited transfer window. More or less continuing with the squad currently signed up to and past May 18?

Personally my gut feeling hasn't really changed since last Saturday, just less kneejerk. I'd sack Caldwell immediately and appoint Allison, Scott Paterson or Doolan (any combo of) as interim manager and assistant I'd be less open to employing an out of work manager as they wouldn't know who they're working with. Time would be against them.  

I really believe that dismissing the present manager, bringing in another permanent manager and also still strengthening the squad this month is a pipe dream. Unless of course our Chair and Chief Exec are a couple of steps ahead (another pipe dream, methinks). Gotta say that whatever anyone thinks of our current Board/Chief Exec/Chair I don't envy them just now. They'd be heavily criticised for sacking Caldwell, either for not giving him more time (nest of vipers MKII) or for appointing him in the first place. Do nothing and the fan resentment imo will further grow to intolerable levels.

Let's cut to the chase LIB.

If the club were to sack Gary Caldwell and appoint a temporary manager and you're for having Scott Paterson in the mix, the logical conclusion would be to bring back Archie as well?

I don't know if this is where you're going with this, but let's explore it anyway.

Although it's debatable, let's accept for the minute, that it's a "pipe dream" to bring in a new manager and strengthen the current squad during the transfer window.

We are currently paying for two sets of managers.

The question has to be who would have a better chance of keeping us up. Gary Caldwell or Alan Archibald?

My money would be on Archie every single time.

However, Archie & Shaggy are proud men. For there to be a cat in hell's chance of them coming back, Jacqui Low, Gerry Britton and all of us supporters that agreed with the sacking (which was most of us), would have to do some major grovelling and begging for them to even consider coming back.

So basically the plan is; we sack Gary Caldwell, bring back Archie & Shaggy to the end of the season and hope for the best.

It's an option. It's not my preferred option, but under these desperate circumstances, it's an option nonetheless

 

 

 

[Garscube Road End]

2 hours ago, AndyMac said:

Let's cut to the chase LIB.

If the club were to sack Gary Caldwell and appoint a temporary manager and you're for having Scott Paterson in the mix, the logical conclusion would be to bring back Archie as well?

I don't know if this is where you're going with this, but let's explore it anyway.

Although it's debatable, let's accept for the minute, that it's a "pipe dream" to bring in a new manager and strengthen the current squad during the transfer window.

We are currently paying for two sets of managers.

The question has to be who would have a better chance of keeping us up. Gary Caldwell or Alan Archibald?

My money would be on Archie every single time.

However, Archie & Shaggy are proud men. For there to be a cat in hell's chance of them coming back, Jacqui Low, Gerry Britton and all of us supporters that agreed with the sacking (which was most of us), would have to do some major grovelling and begging for them to even consider coming back.

So basically the plan is; we sack Gary Caldwell, bring back Archie & Shaggy to the end of the season and hope for the best.

It's an option. It's not my preferred option, but under these desperate circumstances, it's an option nonetheless

 

 

 

To bring back a failure would just confirm us as a mickey mouse club.

[jlsarmy]

There is no chance Caldwell will be sacked just now , one reason is the financial aspect  , the second reason is they won’t admit they’ve made a mistake  in appointing Caldwell .

Worrying times ahead 

 

[Garscube Road End]

Just now, jlsarmy said:

There is no chance Caldwell will be sacked just now , one reason is the financial aspect  , the second reason is they won’t admit they’ve made a mistake  in appointing Caldwell .

Worrying times ahead 

 

It's extremely worrying that they are prepared to risk the future of the club.