Jump to content

Caldwell’s Massive 7 Days


Paukea
 Share

Recommended Posts

29 minutes ago, Thistleberight said:

Quality posting again LiB, I ran out of likes. 

 

Just one point while I'm at it, just cos Caldwell might be perceived to have improved on Archie doesn't make him a success. Far from it. I too am reserving my right to call for him to go, even if this is improvement.

This.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, allyo said:

Okay here's a stat...

Gary Caldwelltook charge of a demoralised and disjointed Thistle team in mid October. Within two weeks he'd  lost his first three games. Terrible start, obviously.

In the five months since then we have won as many games as we have lost. 8 wins, 6 draws, 8 defeats.

But Allyo, here’s another stat; we are ninth!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are ninth Sandy, but only because of things that happened several months ago.

Same as you, I wanted him gone at Christmas. But he stayed. And since then he has made some good signings, key players are showing better form, and we have clawed back a big gap on three teams to the point that we are in a genuine five way battle to avoid the drop. 

Im not sure what you are arguing for here. If it is that he should be sacked tomorrow then in reference to our recent results that is ridiculous. If it is that he has hardly been a revelation and his position should be considered at the end of the season, depending upon what happens between now and then,  then I think most people on here, including myself, would agree with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, douglas clark said:

Can I just ask, apart from getting a very good manager, what did their board do that our's didn't? Genuine question.

They got a good manager. They obviously showed a bit of ambition in getting such a quality manager. Did we? Clearly not. And things since last season haven't been at all right. That comes from the board. They should have punted Archie a lot sooner. The new board/chairman/CE are proving incompetent and their silence is deafening.  Remember when the chairman said that they were listening and would have regular updates? Nothing but silence. And Mr Britton has been as a low profile CE as we have ever seen. Also silence on the proposed training ground. The club stinks from top to bottom and that all stems from an incompetent board.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

Before we played Kilmarnock in October 2017 we were above them in the league and they had just sacked their manager. The rest as they say is history. The difference between us and them is even more worrying and alarming.

Were we not on the same points as Killie? Though that’s not here or there I suppose. Think that was the game where Boyd scored from an absolute bomb scare moment from keown. The writing may have already been on the wall then. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if we had did what Killie did and changed our manager then 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

Were we not on the same points as Killie? Though that’s not here or there I suppose. Think that was the game where Boyd scored from an absolute bomb scare moment from keown. The writing may have already been on the wall then. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if we had did what Killie did and changed our manager then 

I thought Archibald should have been sacked after the Kilmarnock game. But we then went on the best run of the season where we got 17points from the next 13 games.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, watties wallies said:

to be fair to archie at the start of this season  he wasn't given sufficient backing/funding to bring in the quality of player that was required to push for promotion.  He had lost the confidence of the man at the top.  :thumbsup2:

Not sure I agree with this ww.

If the man at the top had lost confidence then AA would have been binned close season.

We can't judge about funding cos we don't know figures. AA might have been given the same funding as Caldwell got at Christmas, we might never know.

AA had an horrendous signing history and possibly just wasted what he had. Then again had the club stuck with him and released funds to AA at Christmas, he might have got his signings right, we'll never know.

Fact is, AA got sacked cos his start to the season was as p1sh poor as his end to the previous season, not cos anyone lost confidence, he became rubbish.:blush:

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Thistleberight said:

Not sure I agree with this ww.

If the man at the top had lost confidence then AA would have been binned close season.

We can't judge about funding cos we don't know figures. AA might have been given the same funding as Caldwell got at Christmas, we might never know.

AA had an horrendous signing history and possibly just wasted what he had. Then again had the club stuck with him and released funds to AA at Christmas, he might have got his signings right, we'll never know.

Fact is, AA got sacked cos his start to the season was as p1sh poor as his end to the previous season, not cos anyone lost confidence, he became rubbish.:blush:

I just spent 10 minutes checking for the horrendous spate of injury problems that befell the squad after we reached the dizzy heights of the top six (not dizzy at all for quite a lot of other teams). This was done with the intention of giving Archie some slack, especially again when we cruelly lost O'Ware before this season really got under way.

But I gave up..... when checking some of the line-ups that included Archie signings, I realized I couldn't really offer any strong excuse for the state of the squad he left us with. AA will always be a legend as a player, and fondly remembered for getting us to the Premiership and the top six, but then he bombed, big style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watching AA's body language in the matches prior to relegation showed a man who was sick fed-up with the team and the way they were playing. I remember him stood with hands in pockets staring at the ground .. the guy looked utterly lost in his own dark thoughts. Now, IMO, a good CEO / club chairman would have tried to address the problems as they were beginning to stack up, I don't believe our board did anything, or if they did, they didn't do enough and /or when they did at is was too little too late.

Like many of the posts on this subject, I saw a team gain top 6 status, then stop playing! The season following on from our top 6 status was simply dire, bad signings and injuries to players who promised much, but when they were available for selection, were simply not to a good enough standard. To make a bad situation worse, the season ended with us not 'turning up'  in the two relegation playoff games.

For this season, even if we do achieve 8th place in this league, is there not some issues to be addressed by the club regarding the 'vision' of the board and where they see PTFC?  I may be wrong, but rather than being a community club open to suggestions and the thoughts of the support, we now seem to have a board that conducts itself as a non-communicative closed shop!

This lack of communication does concern me, as this [at least to me] could be indicative of something amiss within the club?

I thought the AGM of the Jags Trust before the game on Saturday might be the forum to have any questions answered? Any thoughts?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are no excuses for AA's signings at the start of this season other than the board should not have kept him as manager after we got relegated.

When we got to the top 6 we did get some injuries. The 6-0 loss to Aberdeen on the last game showed this up. At that point we had lost Cerny, Booth, Dumbaya, Osman and Welsh. There did look to be an element of players downing tools after making the top six

The season we got relegated we had a horrendous run of injuries to fullbacks (dumbaya, booth, elliot) which resulted in getting in some panic signings such as Nitransky and McGinn. In midfield we were without Osman and Bannigan.

Beyond that we never got close to replacing Lindsay. Osman and Booth when fit never hit the hieghts of the previous season, we never replaced Welsh, left it too long to get in an extra midfielder (Woods) who was unfit and not really what we needed. That was my memory of why we struggled until Christmas and at that point I had some sympathy with Archie as despite the injuries we were in touch and the team looked like it had a spirit in it following the late winner against Dundee.

However the January window and from then until end of the season was were Archie really failed. Not signing a left back , midfielder and an additional central defender meant we were dependent on an injury prone off form Booth, an unfit Martin Woods , an out of form Keown as well as players who were not premier league level starters such as Barton (in midfield),  Devine, Elliot and Edwards. Even stranger was Dumbaya who the club were touting as someone who was nearing fitness and would be an assett yet when fit only got selected a couple of times. Other poor choices also featured getting Penrice back and not playing him even when we didn't have a fit left back, leaving lawless out, preffering Storey to Doolan and starting Elliot at left back.

So in summary injuries where in my opinion a valid excuse for some parts of the post split top six games through to January of last season but from that point the failure to correct lay with Archie.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jaggernaut said:

I just spent 10 minutes checking for the horrendous spate of injury problems that befell the squad after we reached the dizzy heights of the top six (not dizzy at all for quite a lot of other teams). This was done with the intention of giving Archie some slack, especially again when we cruelly lost O'Ware before this season really got under way.

But I gave up..... when checking some of the line-ups that included Archie signings, I realized I couldn't really offer any strong excuse for the state of the squad he left us with. AA will always be a legend as a player, and fondly remembered for getting us to the Premiership and the top six, but then he bombed, big style.

Agree with everything in your post juggernaut. I will always remember AA's time as a player coach and manager with great affection, he is a legend and that won't ever change. He's a jag first and foremost. Just cos of that doesn't mean I'm an apologist for him. His greatest success came with McCall and McNamara team, his initial tinkering after a season was hit and miss and he kept going back to his 4 2 3 1.......going over old ground again sorry.

Main point is, just cos I wonder what might have happened should he have stayed and my occasional mentions of his name doesn't make me an apologist for him. You're only as good as your last result. This might explain sandy's postings of the past few days. Everytime we get a win it fills us with hope we might be turning a corner the results go against us and we capitulate in the next game and we become negative again. I keep deciding Caldwell is gash then he wins and I get that glimmer of hope, then we bomb and I'm back on the "Caldwell Caldwell get tae feck" gang. It's been a roller coaster of a season. Long way of saying I agree with ya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

Watching AA's body language in the matches prior to relegation showed a man who was sick fed-up with the team and the way they were playing. I remember him stood with hands in pockets staring at the ground .. the guy looked utterly lost in his own dark thoughts. Now, IMO, a good CEO / club chairman would have tried to address the problems as they were beginning to stack up, I don't believe our board did anything, or if they did, they didn't do enough and /or when they did at is was too little too late.

Like many of the posts on this subject, I saw a team gain top 6 status, then stop playing! The season following on from our top 6 status was simply dire, bad signings and injuries to players who promised much, but when they were available for selection, were simply not to a good enough standard. To make a bad situation worse, the season ended with us not 'turning up'  in the two relegation playoff games.

For this season, even if we do achieve 8th place in this league, is there not some issues to be addressed by the club regarding the 'vision' of the board and where they see PTFC?  I may be wrong, but rather than being a community club open to suggestions and the thoughts of the support, we now seem to have a board that conducts itself as a non-communicative closed shop!

This lack of communication does concern me, as this [at least to me] could be indicative of something amiss within the club?

I thought the AGM of the Jags Trust before the game on Saturday might be the forum to have any questions answered? Any thoughts?

Agree with the sentiments re AA and the team. From the outside it looked as if the players downed tools, and we got wind of player revolt. If AA tried to address this he would also have needed the backing of the board, I never got the sense that he had that.

As many on here posted at the time, when the dressing room falls apart it's invariably down to money, were they, or did some player perceive they weren't rewarded enough for their top 6 efforts? We'll probably never know.

I too remember AA's body language towards the end if the season, I felt for him I really did but under such circumstances you need to be stronger than the biggest personality in the dressing room and I suspect he just wasn't. It needed a clear out, before the end of the season. Too many players being carried, too many injured as you say. I often wondered how hard those that were injured were trying hard enough to get back.

I don't think the communication between the manager and board was as good as it might have been, just how I felt, don't know for sure. If the board then and the board now's communication with us is anything to go by......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, laukat said:

There are no excuses for AA's signings at the start of this season other than the board should not have kept him as manager after we got relegated.

When we got to the top 6 we did get some injuries. The 6-0 loss to Aberdeen on the last game showed this up. At that point we had lost Cerny, Booth, Dumbaya, Osman and Welsh. There did look to be an element of players downing tools after making the top six

The season we got relegated we had a horrendous run of injuries to fullbacks (dumbaya, booth, elliot) which resulted in getting in some panic signings such as Nitransky and McGinn. In midfield we were without Osman and Bannigan.

Beyond that we never got close to replacing Lindsay. Osman and Booth when fit never hit the hieghts of the previous season, we never replaced Welsh, left it too long to get in an extra midfielder (Woods) who was unfit and not really what we needed. That was my memory of why we struggled until Christmas and at that point I had some sympathy with Archie as despite the injuries we were in touch and the team looked like it had a spirit in it following the late winner against Dundee.

However the January window and from then until end of the season was were Archie really failed. Not signing a left back , midfielder and an additional central defender meant we were dependent on an injury prone off form Booth, an unfit Martin Woods , an out of form Keown as well as players who were not premier league level starters such as Barton (in midfield),  Devine, Elliot and Edwards. Even stranger was Dumbaya who the club were touting as someone who was nearing fitness and would be an assett yet when fit only got selected a couple of times. Other poor choices also featured getting Penrice back and not playing him even when we didn't have a fit left back, leaving lawless out, preffering Storey to Doolan and starting Elliot at left back.

So in summary injuries where in my opinion a valid excuse for some parts of the post split top six games through to January of last season but from that point the failure to correct lay with Archie.

Great assessment,  ran outta likes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Thistleberight said:

Agree with the sentiments re AA and the team. From the outside it looked as if the players downed tools, and we got wind of player revolt. If AA tried to address this he would also have needed the backing of the board, I never got the sense that he had that.

As many on here posted at the time, when the dressing room falls apart it's invariably down to money, were they, or did some player perceive they weren't rewarded enough for their top 6 efforts? We'll probably never know.

I too remember AA's body language towards the end if the season, I felt for him I really did but under such circumstances you need to be stronger than the biggest personality in the dressing room and I suspect he just wasn't. It needed a clear out, before the end of the season. Too many players being carried, too many injured as you say. I often wondered how hard those that were injured were trying hard enough to get back.

I don't think the communication between the manager and board was as good as it might have been, just how I felt, don't know for sure. If the board then and the board now's communication with us is anything to go by......

Interesting analysis. I think Archie & Shaggy we’re worn out from the effort of keeping us in the top flight. Nobody within the Club seemed to recognise that or be able to help. So the sacking felt painful. Still does. 

The fact that I haven’t warmed to GC has nothing to do with what happened to Archie. I just don’t think he has understood Thistle (witness release of Erskine) nor has the tactical nous  or decision-making ability  (witness 18 month contract to Harkins) to put in a decent promotion challenge. 

We need an overhaul this summer, starting with a new manager and maybe some Board changes too.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, sandy said:

Interesting analysis. I think Archie & Shaggy we’re worn out from the effort of keeping us in the top flight. Nobody within the Club seemed to recognise that or be able to help. So the sacking felt painful. Still does. 

The fact that I haven’t warmed to GC has nothing to do with what happened to Archie. I just don’t think he has understood Thistle (witness release of Erskine) nor has the tactical nous  or decision-making ability  (witness 18 month contract to Harkins) to put in a decent promotion challenge. 

We need an overhaul this summer, starting with a new manager and maybe some Board changes too.

What would "understanding Thistle" have been?

We should be an organisation focussed primarily on winning football matches. I didn't necessarily agree with releasing Erskine either, but if it was part of a squad overhaul which results in us staying in the division, it will have been justified. The level of hysteria surrounding the whole event was ridiculous.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sandy said:

Interesting analysis. I think Archie & Shaggy we’re worn out from the effort of keeping us in the top flight. Nobody within the Club seemed to recognise that or be able to help. So the sacking felt painful. Still does. 

The fact that I haven’t warmed to GC has nothing to do with what happened to Archie. I just don’t think he has understood Thistle (witness release of Erskine) nor has the tactical nous  or decision-making ability  (witness 18 month contract to Harkins) to put in a decent promotion challenge. 

We need an overhaul this summer, starting with a new manager and maybe some Board changes too.

Fair enough. Your mind is made up. Although I would argue in hindsight that promotion was impossible with the inherited squad. Erskine I loved but tbh I think that move suited all parties. Harkins I agree is poor. But...why not mention the good signings of Mcdonald; Anderson, Saunders and Cardle. I'm not sure about McMillan yet. Hazard I'm warming to. All in all his signings have improved the team. For what it's worth I think most fans would agree if we stay up he stays for next season. If we are relegated he goes.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

Fair enough. Your mind is made up. Although I would argue in hindsight that promotion was impossible with the inherited squad. Erskine I loved but tbh I think that move suited all parties. Harkins I agree is poor. But...why not mention the good signings of Mcdonald; Anderson, Saunders and Cardle. I'm not sure about McMillan yet. Hazard I'm warming to. All in all his signings have improved the team. For what it's worth I think most fans would agree if we stay up he stays for next season. If we are relegated he goes. 

I agree if we are relagated he needs to go but I don't think its as clear cut as stay up and he should stay

I think the manner in which we stay up, if we stay up and the future plans will be a big deciding factor on if he should be given next season. He has made some good signings and some not so great however most of the good ones Anderson, McDonald, Hazard and McMillan are on loans or short term deals so either he is going to have to get them signed up or we face another clear out and rebuild.

 At the very least he is going to have to get rid of Bell, Lennox, McGinty, Keown, Coulibally, Roy, McCarthy, Mansell, Storey and possibly Harkins which is going to be a large task. Not all of those will be replaced but if we also need to replace the guys on short term deals that will require some serious wheeling and dealing coupled with the ability to get the new starts playing as a team.

Is Caldwell capable of that? He has the next few weeks to demonstrate some of these qualities by getting results, some people on contract for next year and letting some go. If we could see some of that then he will start to get more people convinced that he is the guy to take us into next season.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, laukat said:

I agree if we are relagated he needs to go but I don't think its as clear cut as stay up and he should stay

I think the manner in which we stay up, if we stay up and the future plans will be a big deciding factor on if he should be given next season. He has made some good signings and some not so great however most of the good ones Anderson, McDonald, Hazard and McMillan are on loans or short term deals so either he is going to have to get them signed up or we face another clear out and rebuild.

 At the very least he is going to have to get rid of Bell, Lennox, McGinty, Keown, Coulibally, Roy, McCarthy, Mansell, Storey and possibly Harkins which is going to be a large task. Not all of those will be replaced but if we also need to replace the guys on short term deals that will require some serious wheeling and dealing coupled with the ability to get the new starts playing as a team.

Is Caldwell capable of that? He has the next few weeks to demonstrate some of these qualities by getting results, some people on contract for next year and letting some go. If we could see some of that then he will start to get more people convinced that he is the guy to take us into next season.

Agree. Of the players you say we need to get rid of only Bell , McGinty and Harkins are contracted to us for next season.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, milhouse said:

What would "understanding Thistle" have been?

We should be an organisation focussed primarily on winning football matches. I didn't necessarily agree with releasing Erskine either, but if it was part of a squad overhaul which results in us staying in the division, it will have been justified. The level of hysteria surrounding the whole event was ridiculous.

GC has no cognisance of how Erskine & Doolan felt about the Club; and even if he did, it wasn’t an important factor in his decision-making.

If there was ‘hysteria’, it was because there was very little communication coming out of Firhill as to GC’s rationale and his plans for rebuilding. All we saw was a long-serving player who loved the Club, gradually being frozen out (again, a perception).

One day Doolan & Erskine will manage us, that I’m sure of.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, sandy said:

GC has no cognisance of how Erskine & Doolan felt about the Club; and even if he did, it wasn’t an important factor in his decision-making.

If there was ‘hysteria’, it was because there was very little communication coming out of Firhill as to GC’s rationale and his plans for rebuilding. All we saw was a long-serving player who loved the Club, gradually being frozen out (again, a perception).

One day Doolan & Erskine will manage us, that I’m sure of.

"Feeling strongly" about the club doesn't neccessarily equate to winning football matches, otherwise we'd have a starting line up of the most die-hard fans out the stand.

Doolan and Erskine could manage us in the future if they are the best candidates for the managerial job. Not simply because they would be popular former players. Insisting on hiring "your own" should be left to the "Celtic-minded" or "Big Rangers Men"  of the Old Firm. Alan Archibald was treated far too leniently because he was a popular former player. Which didn't make him a good manager.

Erskine and Doolan may have no interest in being football managers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators
46 minutes ago, sandy said:

GC has no cognisance of how Erskine & Doolan felt about the Club; and even if he did, it wasn’t an important factor in his decision-making.

 

Nor should it be. Ever. Irrespective of the player involved or the manager involved. 

A manager should only base his decision re a player's future on what he considers he brings to the team. Not on what any given player feels about the club. That's an example of weak management. 

You can argue that from a footballing point of view allowing Chris Erskine, probably my favourite player of the last 20 years or so, to go was the wrong call. But to suggest Erskine's feelings for Thistle should have influenced Caldwell's thinking is just wrong. 

Allowing Erskine to leave was a big call. In many respects, given his popularity within the Thistle support, a brave one. Whether it was the right one is open to debate and no matter how the season finishes will be difficult to provide a definitive answer to. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • admin locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...