Strict Liability

[javeajag]

It’s being reported that 3 of the 42 league clubs have come out in favour of strict liability .... Annan, QotS and.....us?!!!!

anyone know any more ? 

Edited March 26, 2019 by javeajag

[ARu-Strathbungo]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

It’s being reported that 3 of the 42 league clubs have come out against strict liability .... Annan, QotS and.....us?!!!!

no doubt the various fans trusts and supporters have been consulted about this ?!

anyone know any more ? 

There is a small article in the BBC website:- https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47436351

[Ruchillnomore]

We and the other 2 clubs first of all have had the decency to respond and secondly have backed strict liability not against it. 

[eljaggo]

Hooliganism, sectarian chanting, missile throwing and flares could be stopped in a matter of weeks by holding the offenders' club responsible and deducting 10 points from their league total for each offence or throwing them out of the cup.

The main obstacle to this is the veto available to the old firm for anything that doesn't suit them.

The continuing problems in Scottish football are entirely of their own making.

[Legs Like A Spider]

How is strict liability fair?

[allyo]

I'm definitely in favour of it in principle, but I do think there are complications. I'm not entirely clear whether the liability is on the club of the offending fans, or on the home club. I'm not particularly keen on Thistle being punished for The Uglies turning up at Firhill, spouting their bile, throwing flares, invading the pitch etc. But I have heard that it is the responsibility of the venue to control  behaviour, and to some extent I suppose it is, so there lies a problem.

But on the general basis of a club being responsible for the behaviour of its fans, I am in favour. It may seem a bit unfair; people ask what the clubs can actually do. But everyone will tell you that the fans are a big part of every club. The major stakeholder. They are not separable, like in a business/client relationship. Fans benefit from their team's success, and hurt at their failure. So if fan behaviour results in penalties against the club then that is completely appropriate.

It is also a potentially effective deterent. It my not directly influence the complete idiots, but if these idiots are hurting their club then the other fans will soon turn against them, and for me that is key to managing their actions.

Another aspect that I have not really heard discussed (the media is so one dimensional) is what happens to the money if a club is penalised. My understanding, though I may be wrong, is that we are not talking about criminal penalties here. So would the money remain within Scottish football? If so, that money could be redistributed, benefitting clubs whose fans do behave, and the game as a whole. (The question of whether you'd trust Scottish football authorities to use it wisely is another matter). Points deductions could also benefit other clubs. So there is really nothing to fear unless your fans disgrace you, and we all know where most of that lies.

So, management difficulties maybe, but definitely scope to explore. I for one am happy to see the leadership in our club being positive about it.

Edited March 26, 2019 by allyo

[lady-isobel-barnett]

It's a complex situation and it's difficult to see the SFA/SPFL coping, given they bungle just about anything that turns up. Fining clubs for a misdemeanour caused by their fans can't be at a flat rate. The minimum fine that would cause any concern to the ugly sisters would bankrupt a lower league club. Points deduction on a sliding scale is a more equitable system but so open to jiggery pockery. Besides it devalues the competition. Perhaps an offending club whether at home or away has to shut part of their ground at a subsequent home match. Then again that wouldn't be much of a punishment for clubs like us who never fill their ground.

Sadly the argument for self policing on its own is worn as thin as ever. Can't remember the last time fellow fans signaled out a coin tosser, flare thrower or a sectarian chanter. If they have it's an exception to the rule. We're told glibly that it's society that's at fault, especially for the sectarian issues. But who's to say without the mouthpieces of two football clubs in particular who have thrived on a diet of bigotry that such issues wouldn't be significantly dampened.

Don't know the answer but I reckon strict liability will be forced upon Scottish Football regardless of the complexity of the issue. 

 

[eljaggo]

UEFA are investigating Montenegro for racist chanting during the England match.  So if countries are liable in international games, there is no reason why clubs cannot be liable in domestic games.  The fans will soon learn to police their idiot compatriots if their team is being punished.  Money fines are not the answer given the vast disparity in clubs' wealth and income.  The common currency is points - that is what fans and clubs value most.

[allyo]

Wider society has largely moved on from sectarian issues. But football has not. There's no question in my mind that  the mouthpieces of CelSev keep it going.

And the clubs themselves are complicit. Orange strips and armed forces day (how worthy) don't help. Nor, I suppose, do Irish flags and music. (Though somehow I personally find it hard to get so offended by that).

[Legs Like A Spider]

So, if we had won the Ramsdens Cup against Queen of the South on penalties and next day we had the cup taken from us and presented to Queen of the South then everyone here would think that was fair enough we deserved to be punished because of a few fans who got overexcited after Doolans goal??

The facts are the 'big clubs' will not be affected but the smaller clubs will. Scottish football is not in a financial position to pass liability onto clubs.

Self policing at a club like thistle with no real hooligan element will work fine but at an Edinburgh derby it would probably not be safe to give a right good ticking off to some coked up nutcase heading for the wall to jump on to the pitch.

Its typical of current authorities that they absolve all responsibilty and everybody suffers for the actions of a few.

As fans we already endure being filmed, body searched, abused by stewards, etc. There are enough rules and regulations in place. How about the police just do their job.

 

[cyprusjag]

4 hours ago, allyo said:

Wider society has largely moved on from sectarian issues. But football has not. There's no question in my mind that  the mouthpieces of CelSev keep it going.

And the clubs themselves are complicit. Orange strips and armed forces day (how worthy) don't help.

Nor, I suppose, do Irish flags and music. (Though somehow I personally find it hard to get so offended by that).

[sandy]

Feck, Scottish football is becoming as complex as Brexit

[Auld Jag]

1 hour ago, sandy said:

Feck, Scottish football is becoming as complex as Brexit

Lets hope unlike May. Thistle can come back from Europe and get some victories.

[Jordanhill Jag]

15 hours ago, javeajag said:

It’s being reported that 3 of the 42 league clubs have come out in favour of strict liability .... Annan, QotS and.....us?!!!!

anyone know any more ? 

In effect three Clubs who are unlikely ever to be impacted by it - and tbh our Board have a lot more to deal with than this trivia 

[Lenziejag]

6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

In effect three Clubs who are unlikely ever to be impacted by it 

How do you come to that conclusion  ?

[Dick Dastardly]

7 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

In effect three Clubs who are unlikely ever to be impacted by it - and tbh our Board have a lot more to deal with than this trivia 

Did our fans not throw flares at East Fife ?

Did our fans not invade the pitch at the Ramsdens final ?

it is complex and would need to be implemented carefully. For instance what would be done to stop me putting on a Falkirk shirt and chucking a few flares before starting a rumpus at one of their games so that they get a points penalty

Generaly speaking, I am in favour

Edited March 27, 2019 by Dick Dastardly

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Did our fans not throw flares at East Fife ?

Did our fans not invade the pitch at the Ramsdens final ?

it is complex and would need to be implemented carefully. For instance what would be done to stop me putting on a Falkirk shirt and chucking a few flares before starting a rumpus at one of their games so that they get a points penalty

Generaly speaking, I am in favour

Good point about fans of clubs purporting to be fans of other clubs, really hard to avoid/prevent. I also agree with legs like a spider, can the police not just do their job. In this regard the facts are simple. The police charge clubs for policing hence why there are so many police free games, clubs can't and don't want to pay for this. If the police aren't there what can they do. 

Generally speaking if a flare is thrown or fans come onto the pitch for what ever reason, it's very easy to tell who they support in the main. The likely hood is whoever throws a flare is known to those around them.

Here's an alternative way to deal with this. If there is any crowd disorder by way of fans on the pitch or flares or sectarian or racist singing, the referee simply takes the players off the pitch. The section of the stadium where the issue originates is cleared, (no money refunded) once done the games continues. If it happens a second time during the game, or that section of the stadium refuses to leave etc, then again the ref takes the players off the pitch and the whole stadium is cleared. Everyone goes home and the game is then played out in front of an empty stadium. This ensures the matter is dealt with there and then. Facing the prospect of this, real fans would hopefully be encouraged to self police. It also eradicates the need for fines that small clubs can't afford, points deductions etc.

If fans of certain clubs persist then their home games should be played in empty stadiums which hits the clubs in the pocket and would encourage them to police their own fans.

As a side issue, I've never been searched going into a ground. I could be taking anything in. But if clubs and fans self police there'd be no need to search fans.

[allyo]

I haven't thought it through.

I just really dislike Celtic and their twin