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Caldwell Like or Loathe


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I posted this immediately after the final whistle on another thread- it probably belongs here:

So the season is over. I’ve tended to avoid the Caldwell debate, largely because I’m not sure what to think. This remains the case. 

Back at around Christmas, I posted that Caldwell should be punted forthwith. I also said, assuming this won’t happen, he should only be given another season if his team shows sustained promotion challenging form; simply staying up by the skin of our teeth on the final day is not enough,

So where are we now? We’ve gone into the final day in danger of relegation. On the face of it, that’s not good enough. However we’ve also shown sustained promotion challenging form. A form table of the past 15 games- close to half a season- shows us third, two points off United in second. 

Based on this, along with our survival and 6th place finish, I think he has objectively done enough, to be fair.

 I somehow can’t warm to him, however. If he wins promotion next season though...

Edited by Duke Gekantawa
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Question that should be being asked is can we play with the intensity & professionalism that we did today routinely? If that be the case then the status quo is a no brainer. Why we had to wait to the last game of the season on an away plastic ground to play so is another question. BTW impressed with my drunken typing on a rather jolly choo choo home.

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7 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Question that should be being asked is can we play with the intensity & professionalism that we did today routinely? If that be the case then the status quo is a no brainer. Why we had to wait to the last game of the season on an away plastic ground to play so is another question. BTW impressed with my drunken typing on a rather jolly choo choo home.

It wasn’t left to the last game of the season since the first of January it has happened more than it’s not (3rd in the league of performances since January 1st shows tha)- the infuriating thing is that it did not happen at all prior to that and we had left such a massive gap between us and Alloa and the others (with the exception of Falkirk) to enjoy them more 

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34 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

It wasn’t left to the last game of the season since the first of January it has happened more than it’s not (3rd in the league of performances since January 1st shows tha)- the infuriating thing is that it did not happen at all prior to that and we had left such a massive gap between us and Alloa and the others (with the exception of Falkirk) to enjoy them more 

I think today has been the only game I have been at all season when we have been in control of pretty much the whole game. That is probably what Lib was referring to.

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Okay, so here it is, the league table since Gary Caldwell arrived...

Worth noting that we played a game less than everyone else, meaning we've been anything between the 4th and 8th best team. As I say, average. However I do think the trend is important, and while we don't write off the early results, it is better to be in a postion where things are improving than not. But make of it what you will.

PS - Not sure how you can start in 8th, be 8th best, and finish in sixth. Weird and wonderful.

 

1 Ross County 28 16 6 6 49 30 19 54
2 Dundee Utd 27 15 6 6 35 25 10 51
3 Inverness CT 28 11 9 8 38 35 3 42
4 Morton 28 9 9 10 26 33 -7 36
5 Ayr 28 9 8 11 32 29 3 35
6 Falkirk 28 8 11 9 32 34 -2 35
7 Alloa 28 10 5 13 33 40 -7 35
8 Partick Thistle 27 9 7 11 33 36 -3 34
9 Dunfermline 28 8 6 14 24 27 -3 30
10 Queen of Sth 28 7 7 14 25 38 -13 28

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

It wasn’t left to the last game of the season since the first of January it has happened more than it’s not (3rd in the league of performances since January 1st shows tha)- the infuriating thing is that it did not happen at all prior to that and we had left such a massive gap between us and Alloa and the others (with the exception of Falkirk) to enjoy them more 

TL I'd love to answer you but either my phone screen or your post is rather blurred. Just about Central Station so...

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In my opinion, Gary Caldwell has done a completely satisfactory job.

The squad Alan Archibald assembled last Summer was one of the worst Thistle sides I have ever seen, thus proving his major weakness in player recruitment. Bell, Jeffries, Scobbie, Ntambwe, Storer, Quitongo, Melbourne... Mutumbo, allegedly signed via a recommendation text message from an out of work manager. McGinty and Keown the worst centre back duo since...Keown and Devine. A squad that looked like it had been put together using Champ Man, Instagram and Transfermarkt.

I think that side would have been relegated automatically, given how Alloa and Falkirk picked up over the course of the season.

After 20 minutes of the new season, 2-0 down at Ayr, we were just trying to halt a downward spiral.

Gary Caldwell has done that with good signings and developing a team spirit. Well done to him and he fully merits being Thistle manager next season.

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13 minutes ago, milhouse said:

In my opinion, Gary Caldwell has done a completely satisfactory job.

The squad Alan Archibald assembled last Summer was one of the worst Thistle sides I have ever seen, thus proving his major weakness in player recruitment. Bell, Jeffries, Scobbie, Ntambwe, Storer, Quitongo, Melbourne... Mutumbo, allegedly signed via a recommendation text message from an out of work manager. McGinty and Keown the worst centre back duo since...Keown and Devine. A squad that looked like it had been put together using Champ Man, Instagram and Transfermarkt.

I think that side would have been relegated automatically, given how Alloa and Falkirk picked up over the course of the season.

After 20 minutes of the new season, 2-0 down at Ayr, we were just trying to halt a downward spiral.

Gary Caldwell has done that with good signings and developing a team spirit. Well done to him and he fully merits being Thistle manager next season.

We were clear of the relegation zone when Archie left. Nobody was talking about relegation when Archie was here - just disappointment that we were not challenging at the top of the league. 


 

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Gary Caldwell has done much better than I thought he would. I thought we were certainties for bottom place relegation. He had a terrible start and done very well to turn things around.

On balance, Gary Caldwell has done enough to justify another season in charge. If we were relegated it would have been a total disaster for the club, there was always a danger of back to back relegations  and too many in the club were too complacent about this, thinking we were going to stroll back up again. When Caldwell was appointed I was horrified as he is the master of disaster when it comes to getting clubs relegated.

It's a good day for us, more in relief than celebration, but a good day nonetheless. Onwards and upwards :thumbsup:

 

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On Caldwell, he has earned his right to be in charge next season. His start was terrible, however, since January we have done well and based upon that he has done enough. 

To sack him and have to pay him a big sum of money does not make sense and there is no huge queue of suitable candidates waiting. 

We have some good quality in the squad and with 4 or 5 quality players in for the new season we will be up there. 

Think Dundee United will take a bit of stopping next season though. 

 

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15 minutes ago, milhouse said:

In my opinion, Gary Caldwell has done a completely satisfactory job.

The squad Alan Archibald assembled last Summer was one of the worst Thistle sides I have ever seen, thus proving his major weakness in player recruitment. Bell, Jeffries, Scobbie, Ntambwe, Storer, Quitongo, Melbourne... Mutumbo, allegedly signed via a recommendation text message from an out of work manager. McGinty and Keown the worst centre back duo since...Keown and Devine. A squad that looked like it had been put together using Champ Man, Instagram and Transfermarkt.

I think that side would have been relegated automatically, given how Alloa and Falkirk picked up over the course of the season.

After 20 minutes of the new season, 2-0 down at Ayr, we were just trying to halt a downward spiral.

Gary Caldwell has done that with good signings and developing a team spirit. Well done to him and he fully merits being Thistle manager next season.

Were Sneddon, Mcginty, Penrice, Elliott , Bannigan , Slater , Fitzpatrick . Doolan , Gordon , Spittal , Storey not there before Caldwell arrived, you’re absolutely right the Jan window helped us especially with Scott McDonald arriving at the club but the nucleus of the squad was already there and the results should have been better .

I’m not so sure we can just airbrush out the first part of the season , you’ve got to appraise the whole season as a collective.

Other teams improved since Jan ( Alloa and Falkirk) , other teams went on downward spirals Ayr and QOS 

I’m sure Gary Caldwell will still be there next season and he will still polarise opinion .

 

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13 minutes ago, Alan Murray said:

We were clear of the relegation zone when Archie left. Nobody was talking about relegation when Archie was here - just disappointment that we were not challenging at the top of the league. 


 

It can be debated to death but I think Archie had an element of luck with 2 of his 3 victories. One narrow victory against Hartleys Falkirk said by many to be the worst bairns side in their history and who lost to pretty much every team

one victory against Morton who had lost their manager the previous evening 

i do recall a few people concerned then we were going to go down 

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Just now, jlsarmy said:

Were Sneddon, Mcginty, Penrice, Elliott , Bannigan , Slater , Fitzpatrick . Doolan , Gordon , Spittal , Storey not there before Caldwell arrived, you’re absolutely right the Jan window helped us especially with Scott McDonald arriving at the club but the nucleus of the squad was already there and the results should have been better .

I’m not so sure we can just airbrush out the first part of the season , you’ve got to appraise the whole season as a collective.

Other teams improved since Jan ( Alloa and Falkirk) , other teams went on downward spirals Ayr and QOS 

I’m sure Gary Caldwell will still be there next season and he will still polarise opinion .

 

McGinty and Spittal are different players under Caldwell and Elliott is in far better form as well. Also Sneddon only got into the team after Archie left but yeah apart from that I agree with everything else.

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59 minutes ago, allyo said:

Okay, so here it is, the league table since Gary Caldwell arrived...

Worth noting that we played a game less than everyone else, meaning we've been anything between the 4th and 8th best team. As I say, average. However I do think the trend is important, and while we don't write off the early results, it is better to be in a postion where things are improving than not. But make of it what you will.

PS - Not sure how you can start in 8th, be 8th best, and finish in sixth. Weird and wonderful.

 

1 Ross County 28 16 6 6 49 30 19 54
2 Dundee Utd 27 15 6 6 35 25 10 51
3 Inverness CT 28 11 9 8 38 35 3 42
4 Morton 28 9 9 10 26 33 -7 36
5 Ayr 28 9 8 11 32 29 3 35
6 Falkirk 28 8 11 9 32 34 -2 35
7 Alloa 28 10 5 13 33 40 -7 35
8 Partick Thistle 27 9 7 11 33 36 -3 34
9 Dunfermline 28 8 6 14 24 27 -3 30
10 Queen of Sth 28 7 7 14 25 38 -13 28

 

 

I don't know what it means but top marks for being objective unlike the usual shite from the 'Yes Da Squad!

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7 minutes ago, That 1 jags fan said:

McGinty and Spittal are different players under Caldwell and Elliott is in far better form as well. Also Sneddon only got into the team after Archie left but yeah apart from that I agree with everything else.

Spot on. Unfortunately I'd assume Spittal is away yet we have the core of a decent squad.

I seriously struggle to pick players from the division I'd really like at Firhill. 

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42 minutes ago, milhouse said:

Bell, Jeffries, Scobbie, Ntambwe, Storer, Quitongo, Melbourne... Mutumbo, allegedly signed via a recommendation text message from an out of work manager. McGinty and Keown the worst centre back duo since...Keown and Devine.

Quick Wiki check shows that the nine players you mention have played a grand total of 24 games since leaving Thistle. Half of these are Tam Scobbie, for Brechin City (Bottom of league 1). So for those sugesting that Caldwell should have done better because our budget was higher, maybe consider what that budget had been spent on, and the level of improvement after the squad was (quite desperately) overhauled.

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1 minute ago, allyo said:

Quick Wiki check shows that the nine players you mention have played a grand total of 24 games since leaving Thistle. Half of these are Tam Scobbie, for Brechin City (Bottom of league 1). So for those sugesting that Caldwell should have done better because our budget was higher, maybe consider what that budget had been spent on, and the level of improvement after the squad was (quite desperately) overhauled.

You would probably be lucky if the players mentioned actually played a total of 24 games between them , the majority of them were squad players, undeniable that the overall squad is now better .

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4 hours ago, Big Col said:

All hail King Gary. An absolute genius.

The team relegated with us last season win the league, we finish 11 points behind the mighty Ayr Utd who are in the last play off spot, and finish 3 points behind a mediocre Morton team. And avoid the relegation play off spot on the last day.

But carry on celebrating Gary’s mediocrity. And let’s give him an extended contract. 

And what do you think we should do?

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Okay, apologies, I'm getting carried away with statistics here.

Caldwell lost his first four games, within three and a half weeks of getting the job. At the time I was raging, but in retrospect I'm not sure that he can be judged too harshly in the first 24 days of the job. And obviously he was in a really tough position at that time, with a demoralised squad (which lacked any depth of quality) on a run of seven straight defeats.

The league table since then is as follows.

 

1 Ross County 23 14 4 5 39 25 14 46
2 Dundee Utd 23 12 5 6 29 24 5 41
3 Inverness CT 23 10 5 8 32 30 2 35
4 Partick Thistle 23 9 7 7 32 28 4 34
5 Falkirk 23 7 10 6 30 29 1 31
6 Alloa 23 8 4 11 30 36 -6 28
7 Morton 23 6 9 8 18 24 -6 27
8 Dunfermline 23 7 5 11 21 21 0 26
9 Ayr 23 6 7 10 25 26 -1 25
10 Queen of Sth 23 5 6 12 20 33 -13 21
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34 minutes ago, jagfox said:

I don't know what it means but top marks for being objective unlike the usual shite from the 'Yes Da Squad!

Completely agree. We need more people who are keen to discuss objectively the plus and minus of Caldwell's regime so far.

Next season is very big for us. I think next season will be the last where we have the budget to compete at the top of the league so failing to get promoted and we will probably be stuck in the championship for most of the next decade. You only have to look at Falkirk to realise taht every year spent in the championship makes a return to the top league less likely.

So next week we have to have an objective discussion on if Caldwell is the man to take us back to the SPL next season. We can't afford to give it a few months and hope for the best,

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I think Caldwell has done ok- not more or less. He does not endear himself to the fans and lacks humility, but he has gathered a little momentum and I think it will be interesting to see how things progress from here.

the board are not going to sack him, so the only way we’ll have a new manager at the start of next season is if Caldo doesn’t fancy it or somehow gets a better offer 

Edited by ironfist
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4 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

He wasn’t recruited to start his job in January.

He was given lots of money in January to bring in his own players. How much and is that sustainable? This wasn’t money Archie had in July-August.

I’m happy to write this season off and focus on next, but for the love of God, people need to stop rewriting history. Caldwell marginally improved results with more money and he fell well short of the objective for which he was explicitly recruited.

Well since you're obviously in the know what was Archie's budget last summer in comparison to Caldwell's mid-season one? Or are you possibly just making things up as you go along?  No particular liking for Caldwell but he did better business in the last transfer window than Archie did in the previous three. Alan Archibald is one of my all time heroes but he was done as a Thistle manager, should have been sacked months before he was and I'm not talking about the end of last season. 

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1 hour ago, milhouse said:

In my opinion, Gary Caldwell has done a completely satisfactory job

I simply cannot agree. He was hired to get us promotion, not squeak us away from relegation in the final two weeks of the season.

 

 

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Neither like or loathe, ok he can come across as an arrogant/distant and some of the tactical decisions in games have  been baffling however the recent form  has been impressive.  Most football punters will say that a manager needs two transfer windows to really stamp their authority and another change in leadership will presumably result in another financial pay-off for the club so on balance I'd leave things as they are  with the hope for better things next season.    Top day out, the "we park where we want" chant was a classic and a word for the QoS fans after the game, they must have been hurting but still magnanimous for all that and for that good luck to them in the play-offs.

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