Woodstock Jag Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Lenziejag said: Although 7 players are allowed on the bench, only 3 are allowed to be used. So the minimum is 14 as long as they are all ready to play 1st team football. At the start of last season we couldn’t fill the bench and even those that were subs weren’t ready to play in the 1st team But you don’t know which 14. Remember back when benches were at 3 you ended up with stupid things like Robbie Winters keeping goal for Aberdeen for 83 minutes of a Cup Final. The expansion of the subs bench is all about positional cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: But you don’t know which 14. Remember back when benches were at 3 you ended up with stupid things like Robbie Winters keeping goal for Aberdeen for 83 minutes of a Cup Final. The expansion of the subs bench is all about positional cover. That can still happen if the keeper gets injured after all 3 subs have been used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 48 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: That can still happen if the keeper gets injured after all 3 subs have been used Find me a game where all three subs were used less than a quarter of the way through the game and then maybe you have a point. For the overwhelming majority of matches, that is now not a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Find me a game where all three subs were used less than a quarter of the way through the game and then maybe you have a point. For the overwhelming majority of matches, that is now not a concern. It wasn’t much of a concern before either. I have been going to matches for 50 odd years and I don’t remember an outfield player having to play in goal irrespective of whether no subs were allowed, 1 sub or 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KemoAvdiu Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Lenziejag said: It wasn’t much of a concern before either. I have been going to matches for 50 odd years and I don’t remember an outfield player having to play in goal irrespective of whether no subs were allowed, 1 sub or 3. This has happened multiple times for us in the last decade or two. David Kennedy, Stephen Docherty and Ryan Stevenson - from memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 2 hours ago, KemoAvdiu said: This has happened multiple times for us in the last decade or two. David Kennedy, Stephen Docherty and Ryan Stevenson - from memory. Albert Craig away at Stenhousemuir. Kennedy and Docherty were both away as well (Forfar & Alloa) and all involved quite long stints in goal. I think that Stevenson's time in goal was the only recent one at Firhill and was fora relatively short time as Ryan Scully was sent off, having replaced the injured Tomas Cerny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle88 Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 22 hours ago, jagfox said: 16 players in at the start of pre-season training. Didn’t mention squad size going into competitive games. No reserve team so we will run with a smaller squad overall I would think, but I reckon it would be nearer to twenty. It was jus the way he mention said was 16 is enough.. You took the words out my mouth 20 seems like a reasonable number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 9 hours ago, KemoAvdiu said: This has happened multiple times for us in the last decade or two. David Kennedy, Stephen Docherty and Ryan Stevenson - from memory. 6 hours ago, partickthedog said: Albert Craig away at Stenhousemuir. Kennedy and Docherty were both away as well (Forfar & Alloa) and all involved quite long stints in goal. I think that Stevenson's time in goal was the only recent one at Firhill and was fora relatively short time as Ryan Scully was sent off, having replaced the injured Tomas Cerny. So 4 games mentioned here, maybe a few more ? Six or seven times out of 800 games or so isn’t a real cause for concern is it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a f kincaid Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 13 hours ago, Lenziejag said: It wasn’t much of a concern before either. I have been going to matches for 50 odd years and I don’t remember an outfield player having to play in goal irrespective of whether no subs were allowed, 1 sub or 3. These are documented instances of GOALKEEPERS being replaced by (outfield players). Unless stated otherwise, goalkeepers are assumed to have been injured. On 4 November 1950 McGowan and Hewitt didn't go into goal together! <> Described by Dundee Courier as due to "illness". # Sent off. Grateful if anyone knows of any others. 09/12/1893 BATTLEFIELD CROZIER (J Robertson) 17/09/1898 QUEEN'S PARK SMITH (Auchencloss) 06/09/1902 DUNDEE WILKIE (Duncanson) 16/02/1907 DUNDEE HOWDEN (McKenzie) 01/02/1908 CELTIC HOWDEN <> (Gray) 09/04/1910 HIBS HOWDEN (McGregor) 18/10/1919 HIBS STEWART (Hamilton) 29/03/1924 ABERDEEN RAMSAY (Wilson) 02/01/1930 RANGERSJ ACKSON (Grove) 22/02/1930 KILMARNOCK JACKSON (Grove) 18/04/1936 AIRDRIE JOHNSTONE (Busby) 04/11/1950 HEARTS LEDGERWOOD (McGowan then Hewitt) 28/03/1953 DUNDEE BELL (Wright) 27/04/1953 QUEEN'S PARK LEDGERWOOD (McGowan then Stott) 07/10/1953 RAITH ROVERS LEDGERWOOD (McGowan) 07/01/1956 HEARTS LEDGERWOOD (Harvey) 01/09/1956 HIBS SMITH (Harvey) 14/11/1956 NEWCASTLE UTD LEDGERWOOD (McNab) 05/10/1957 MOTHERWELL LEDGERWOOD (Harvey) 01/10/1958 CELTIC LEDGERWOOD (Wright) 21/03/1964 ST JOHNSTONE NIVEN (McParland) 12/12/1966 AIRDRIE NIVEN (McKinnon) 25/01/1975 MOTHERWELL ARROL (Campbell) 10/12/1977 CELTIC ROUGH (Whittaker) 17/10/1987 HAMILTON BROUGH (Scrimgeour) 13/08/1990 CLIFTONVILLE DUNCAN (Campbell) 06/03/1999 ALLOA ARTHUR (Kennedy) 04/12/1999 ROSS COUNTY BUDINAUKAS # (Craig A) 05/02/2000 STIRLING ALBION BUDINAUKAS # (Docherty) 31/10/2015 HEARTS SCULLY # (Stevenson) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 5 hours ago, Lenziejag said: So 4 games mentioned here, maybe a few more ? Six or seven times out of 800 games or so isn’t a real cause for concern is it ? Right, but we’ve subbed off a keeper for another keeper plenty times since 5 and 7 subs were introduced. The real unknown here is how often an injured keeper played out the game and what impact that had. I remember at Easter Road in the run-in of our first season back up Paul Gallagher had to take painkillers early in the first half to keep going after a clash. His unease was probably part of the reason behind the equaliser he eventually conceded. To return to the wider point, you don’t just need a squad of 14 players. Don’t be silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 21 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: Right, but we’ve subbed off a keeper for another keeper plenty times since 5 and 7 subs were introduced. The real unknown here is how often an injured keeper played out the game and what impact that had. I remember at Easter Road in the run-in of our first season back up Paul Gallagher had to take painkillers early in the first half to keep going after a clash. His unease was probably part of the reason behind the equaliser he eventually conceded. To return to the wider point, you don’t just need a squad of 14 players. Don’t be silly. In the game vs Hibs, did we not have a substitute keeper ? Re the number in the squad - I was just applying the same logic as Firhillista suggested as a minimum required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a f kincaid Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 I think, as others have suggested, Caldwell's comments about a squad of 16 players meant he would expect to start pre-season training with 16 and add a few more before the window closes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mull Jag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 8 minutes ago, a f kincaid said: I think, as others have suggested, Caldwell's comments about a squad of 16 players meant he would expect to start pre-season training with 16 and add a few more before the window closes. That's what I took it to mean, have the basis of a squad for the end of June when we start back and look to add as we go when the players are out of contract at the end of June. I envisage something like 20/21 players plus the younger guys when the season starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 14 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: In the game vs Hibs, did we not have a substitute keeper ? Re the number in the squad - I was just applying the same logic as Firhillista suggested as a minimum required. You’ve spectacularly missed the point. If teams are reluctant to sub off a keeper early on in a game *when you do have a keeper sub* just imagine how reluctant they were when they didn’t. The idea that you could get by on 11 first team players, a back-up goalie and two outfield subs is a total fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partickthedog Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 3 hours ago, a f kincaid said: These are documented instances of GOALKEEPERS being replaced by (outfield players). Unless stated otherwise, goalkeepers are assumed to have been injured. On 4 November 1950 McGowan and Hewitt didn't go into goal together! <> Described by Dundee Courier as due to "illness". # Sent off. Grateful if anyone knows of any others. 09/12/1893 BATTLEFIELD CROZIER (J Robertson) 17/09/1898 QUEEN'S PARK SMITH (Auchencloss) 06/09/1902 DUNDEE WILKIE (Duncanson) 16/02/1907 DUNDEE HOWDEN (McKenzie) 01/02/1908 CELTIC HOWDEN <> (Gray) 09/04/1910 HIBS HOWDEN (McGregor) 18/10/1919 HIBS STEWART (Hamilton) 29/03/1924 ABERDEEN RAMSAY (Wilson) 02/01/1930 RANGERSJ ACKSON (Grove) 22/02/1930 KILMARNOCK JACKSON (Grove) 18/04/1936 AIRDRIE JOHNSTONE (Busby) 04/11/1950 HEARTS LEDGERWOOD (McGowan then Hewitt) 28/03/1953 DUNDEE BELL (Wright) 27/04/1953 QUEEN'S PARK LEDGERWOOD (McGowan then Stott) 07/10/1953 RAITH ROVERS LEDGERWOOD (McGowan) 07/01/1956 HEARTS LEDGERWOOD (Harvey) 01/09/1956 HIBS SMITH (Harvey) 14/11/1956 NEWCASTLE UTD LEDGERWOOD (McNab) 05/10/1957 MOTHERWELL LEDGERWOOD (Harvey) 01/10/1958 CELTIC LEDGERWOOD (Wright) 21/03/1964 ST JOHNSTONE NIVEN (McParland) 12/12/1966 AIRDRIE NIVEN (McKinnon) 25/01/1975 MOTHERWELL ARROL (Campbell) 10/12/1977 CELTIC ROUGH (Whittaker) 17/10/1987 HAMILTON BROUGH (Scrimgeour) 13/08/1990 CLIFTONVILLE DUNCAN (Campbell) 06/03/1999 ALLOA ARTHUR (Kennedy) 04/12/1999 ROSS COUNTY BUDINAUKAS # (Craig A) 05/02/2000 STIRLING ALBION BUDINAUKAS # (Docherty) 31/10/2015 HEARTS SCULLY # (Stevenson) That's a fantastic list, thank you. I see that Ledgerwood had to come off on 7 occasions, so that might have been a bit of a concern. Would the likes of McGowan and Harvey who each had 3 stints in goal have been given special goalkeeper style training as there was at least an appreciable risk that they might have to step up now and again? I am absolutely certain that Albert Craig played in goal against Stenhousemuir at Ochilview. It was near the end of the second of our three seasons in the third tier, ie the season before our promotion under Lambie. Perhaps it was a temporary role, while the principal goalkeeper recovered from injury, but then returned, which is why it is not in your stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 I think like jagfox we'll go with about 20 available players. Maybe a slightly larger squad when you include a few younger lads out on loan. Arsenal famously won their league playing 42 matches and only using 16 players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KemoAvdiu Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 8 hours ago, Lenziejag said: So 4 games mentioned here, maybe a few more ? Six or seven times out of 800 games or so isn’t a real cause for concern is it ? It isn’t a cause for concern. But you said you couldn’t remember it in 50 years when actually it’s halpened multiple times, that’s all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: You’ve spectacularly missed the point. If teams are reluctant to sub off a keeper early on in a game *when you do have a keeper sub* just imagine how reluctant they were when they didn’t. The idea that you could get by on 11 first team players, a back-up goalie and two outfield subs is a total fantasy. What is the point ? On the one hand you said having 7 subs would cut out the ridiculous situation of having an outfield player playing in goal for 83 mins, then effectively you have said there is no real point in having a sub keeper as teams are reluctant to use them ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, KemoAvdiu said: It isn’t a cause for concern. But you said you couldn’t remember it in 50 years when actually it’s halpened multiple times, that’s all. Ok. It was interesting to see the list. Quite a few in the early years. Ledgerwood just about as many times as everybody else and maybe once since 3 subs were allowed to come on ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 18 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: What is the point ? On the one hand you said having 7 subs would cut out the ridiculous situation of having an outfield player playing in goal for 83 mins, then effectively you have said there is no real point in having a sub keeper as teams are reluctant to use them ! The point is that although they will rarely be used every team should have a substitute specialist goalkeeper. They should to do to avoid ruining the competitiveness of games if goalkeepers get injured and to make it less common to force goalkeepers to tough it out, aggravating their injuries in a game. Since this is the case, it makes sense to assume that a squad needs more than simply 14 players, since in the majority of games it will be sensible to use three substitutes, none of whom are goalkeepers, whilst having the option of a goalkeeper on the bench if something goes wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 Meanwhile in Paisley. Scenes. That’s what the Jags need to aspire to. Cutting our staff & player numbers is not the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 Well I suppose you can also go through Fife and over the Tay Bridge now and again, just to break the monotony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 7 minutes ago, sandy said: Meanwhile in Paisley. Scenes. That’s what the Jags need to aspire to. Cutting our staff & player numbers is not the answer. Is it 2020/21 already? Who's the manager now? You're right Sandy, so many other ways to cut costs than redundancies. And it's never the people at the top who go is it, always the ones lower down. How much money would we save if we didn't have a chairperson? Could we not merge Gerry and jlow's roles with Gerry doing both jobs? Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 2 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: I think like jagfox we'll go with about 20 available players. Maybe a slightly larger squad when you include a few younger lads out on loan. Arsenal famously won their league playing 42 matches and only using 16 players. Think if we go with only 20 players which may include 3 goalkeepers , we have to have a couple of utility players to play a few positions ( Christie was always good for that ) if needed . Would be good if it was maybe 22 players so players are competitive and competing for places . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted May 26, 2019 Report Share Posted May 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, sandy said: Meanwhile in Paisley. Scenes. That’s what the Jags need to aspire to. Cutting our staff & player numbers is not the answer. Being able to score penalties does have its benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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