New Owner

[ARu-Strathbungo]

3 hours ago, eljaggo said:

Well done Jaf.  I will be contacting the club to get an address for the Jags Trust, I joined earlier this year, but who appear to be invisible.

I have been looking at the PTFC Trust's Deed.  There is no reason why fans cannot change this to wrest control from the Board.  

First, in clause 13.1 it states that the minimum number of trustees shall  be five, and that there shall be 3 appointed by the Board.

Second, clause 16.1 allows for any modification to be made to the Trust's Deed, with only a simple majority of trustees needed.

If I am reading the Deed correctly therefore (I am not a lawyer), a resolution passed at a Trust members meeting to increase the number of trustees to say seven, would give fans a control of the Trust if two more fans were appointed, and there are no board patsies among the present fans' trustees (easily fixed in about 3 years).  It would also then allow them to reduce the number of Board appointed trustees to a more sensible number while retainimg a link to the Board.

On this last subject, I met the PTFC Trustees at Firhill last season in the JH stand concourse, and had a subsequent exchange of emails with Pauline Graham the Trust's chair.  Despite asking for answers to questions of why there are no fans' appointed directors and the up to date shareholding in PTFC by each of the directors, no answer has been forthcoming.  Why Pauline?

Not sure if this will help:- [email protected] <[email protected]>;

This is Donald Larmour's email address. Donald is the JAGS Trust focal point with regards membership etc. [I think he shares this task with Morag Mc Hattie]

I contacted Donald directly when I could get no response from the JT website. I hope he will be able to help

Edited July 4, 2019 by ARu-Strathbungo

[dl1971]

22 minutes ago, douglas clark said:

Colin Weir is a bit of a hero to me. I hope he recovers from whatever ails him.

If I won the lottery, I wish I could be as decent a human being as he is. There are roads that lottery winners go down, and his  has been an impressive example of what a genuine person does with their fortune.

We are lucky to have him.

 

 

We are indeed. Well said.

[Third Lanark]

1 hour ago, jaf said:

Precisely - that is why sorting the trust so it is in control of the fans rather than deadlocked between board and fans is so critical

That would give fans the protection between the two trusts of having in excess of 25%

 

 

 

I was referring to being concerned about the consortium gaining 75% apologies if I didn’t make that clear

[Third Lanark]

26 minutes ago, douglas clark said:

Colin Weir is a bit of a hero to me. I hope he recovers from whatever ails him.

If I won the lottery, I wish I could be as decent a human being as he is. There are roads that lottery winners go down, and his  has been an impressive example of what a genuine person does with their fortune.

We are lucky to have him.

 

 

Out of likes Douglas but well said

[douglas clark]

Key to what?

There are two roads in front of us.

Either we agree that we are a selling club -  the Aidan Fitzpatrick scenario - and their are many other examples, where we are making some money, sometimes, and the losses of players are a bit correlated to our negative league positions, and we live with that?  Perhaps so.

Or,

We have enough capital or income to keep these players on wages they are happy with,  unless and until the money becomes ridiculous.

 

--------------

Perhaps the Ajax model is a third option.  Get yourself up to a level where you do produce players that sell for ridiculous amounts of money and you re-invest it in your youth.

 

 

 

 

 

[eljaggo]

18 minutes ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

Not sure if this will help:- [email protected] <[email protected]>;

This is Donald Larmour's email address. Donald is the JAGS Trust focal point with regards membership etc. [I think he shares this task with Morag Mc Hattie]

I contacted Donald directly when I could get no response from the JT website. I hope he will be able to help

Many thanks. I contacted the club this morning, and they would not disclose any details unless I emailed them - which I did.

[jaf]

11 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I was referring to being concerned about the consortium gaining 75% apologies if I didn’t make that clear

It is clear, that's my point, if the fans are in control of more than 25% the consortium cannot get more than 75% (without supporter agreement)

This is why the current set up of the trust as deadlocked with 3 board trustees and 3 supporter trustees does not offer the protection that one which has a majority of supporter trustees would offer, as one can assume that's 20% of shares, if not coting with any new consortium board, not able to vote against them either

So I think we are referring to the same point. I am suggesting a method of preventing what you do not wish to happen.

 

[douglas clark]

eljaggo,

Any reply from them?

[ARu-Strathbungo]

There is something I am not sure about … who has designated PTFC as potentially a feeder club to other teams in other leagues? Has this been stated by the interested parties, or is it just media speculation? I ask the question, as, If some possible owner was to see us as only a feeder to other teams in other leagues, I think the majority of the support would be uncomfortable with that situation.

The fact is, at this moment in time PTFC is a feeder club, in that we sell the exceptional talent we nourish on to other teams for them to develop further, but we do that simply because it fits with the current financial state of the club, and the current form and achievements of the club. If however PTFC were to win the Scottish Cup and gain access to European football, get promotion and achieve a higher profile within Scottish football, we would move away from being a selling club to one that attracts higher quality players.

So, as things stand today with Thistle being a feeder / selling club is directly linked with how unsuccessful or successful a team you are.

If however the aims of any new owner are that we are a feeder club, who's sole purpose is to prepare players for another team in the next level in the game I believe we would, over a period of time, lose our core support.

Thoughts ????

[Firhillista]

The term "feeder club" has been around as long as I can remember, but I can't think of any actual examples of it happening. 

At the minute we're a 'feeder club' to anyone who's got the cash and, as we've seen this week, it doesn't have to be a huge amount at that!

[eljaggo]

I suppose it depends on the quality of the club being fed.  If that club is at the top level, and funds are diverted to PTFC to pay for better quality players than we currently can afford, then that would improve our performance, our finances and re-inforce the strategy. 

The quality of Scottish football would mean that only a modest improvement in our playing resources could propel us up the leagues.

I was surprised that the Weirs did not create a family owned trust fund, professionally managed, to provide an annual income to be spent on players.  Investing say £20m would provide about £800,000 per annum while keeping the fund intact, and that would hire 3 or 4 good quality players, who might, if wisely chosen, might reap a transfer profit.

[javeajag]

49 minutes ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

There is something I am not sure about … who has designated PTFC as potentially a feeder club to other teams in other leagues? Has this been stated by the interested parties, or is it just media speculation? I ask the question, as, If some possible owner was to see us as only a feeder to other teams in other leagues, I think the majority of the support would be uncomfortable with that situation.

The fact is, at this moment in time PTFC is a feeder club, in that we sell the exceptional talent we nourish on to other teams for them to develop further, but we do that simply because it fits with the current financial state of the club, and the current form and achievements of the club. If however PTFC were to win the Scottish Cup and gain access to European football, get promotion and achieve a higher profile within Scottish football, we would move away from being a selling club to one that attracts higher quality players.

So, as things stand today with Thistle being a feeder / selling club is directly linked with how unsuccessful or successful a team you are.

If however the aims of any new owner are that we are a feeder club, who's sole purpose is to prepare players for another team in the next level in the game I believe we would, over a period of time, lose our core support.

Thoughts ????

It’s what some people think might happen though no one knows as the potential new owners have not said anything

[Guest]

Under the suggested feeder descriptive @ARu-Strathbungo, are not all clubs, bar Europe's recognised elite, feeder clubs where the more wealthy take the pick from the smaller clubs. So therefore have we and all other Scottish clubs, not always been and always will be feeder clubs?

The big difference would be under what some are speculating, is the purpose for which was as a club will be used. There will be zero transfer income cos all if the best players will simply be moved on to the bigger clubs within the consortium unless on the odd occasion a nugget is unearthed through a colin weir controlled academy. If any new owner allows that arrangement. I'm coming to the conclusion I'm not bright enough to grasp the enormity of the potential here.....

[scotty]

40 minutes ago, eljaggo said:

I suppose it depends on the quality of the club being fed.  If that club is at the top level, and funds are diverted to PTFC to pay for better quality players than we currently can afford, then that would improve our performance, our finances and re-inforce the strategy. 

The quality of Scottish football would mean that only a modest improvement in our playing resources could propel us up the leagues.

I was surprised that the Weirs did not create a family owned trust fund, professionally managed, to provide an annual income to be spent on players.  Investing say £20m would provide about £800,000 per annum while keeping the fund intact, and that would hire 3 or 4 good quality players, who might, if wisely chosen, might reap a transfer profit.

Why were you surprised? From my understanding Colin Weir was never a particularly huge Thistle fan. Before he became invoved in Partick Thistle he gave money to his local club, Irvine Thistle. This was not so much as a football fan and more as someone who knew he had been extremely lucky and wanted to share that with the local community.

The involvement with Partick Thistle was because the Weirs wanted to do something for kids and so he decided to fund grass-roots football and founded the Weir Academy with support from PTFC. The idea that some Jags fans have that the Weirs are somehow extremely rich benefactors of our club is entirely erroneous and comes from cloud cuckoo land.

[eljaggo]

I've no reason to doupt what you say Scotty, but I can't understand the relationship between the Weirs and Jacqui Low.  Perhaps wrongly, I took her to be the Weirs representative on the board, which if true, indicates something more than an interest in helping kids as you put it.

Edited July 4, 2019 by eljaggo

[lady-isobel-barnett]

4 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

The guy who has bought Hibs is a Hibernian supporter.

wouldnt say the home crowds have dipped below 2000, mostly 2.5 to 3000 not that that is a particularly big fanbase but

I think West of Scotland was more accurate, TL, in that there were quite a few occasions recently when the number of home supporters was dipping to around the 2000 mark. My own belief is Jags fans would turn up more often and other lapsed Jags fans return to the fold if we could get a bit more pride back on and off the park. Not a dig at Caldwell but for good or bad he hasn't done much in the way of restoring that pride.

Factor in the incredible repetitiveness caused by the stupid wee leagues we play in and your team has to be entertaining when you play the same opposition every two months.

[scotty]

21 minutes ago, eljaggo said:

I've no reason to doupt what you say Scotty, but I can't understand the relationship between the Weirs and Jacqui Low.  Perhaps wrongly, I took her to be the Weirs representative on the board, which if true, indicates something more than an interest in helping kids as you put it.

Jaqui Low is a director of Three Black Cats, Colin Weir's company which is behind the plans for the training ground. The two are connected but I don't know if Low was appointed as a director because of her connection to Colin Weir as she only became a director of 3BC in 2019.

My point is more that Colin Weir has always steered clear of putting money directly into PTFC and there seems to be no change to that.

[ARu-Strathbungo]

38 minutes ago, Thistleberight said:

Under the suggested feeder descriptive @ARu-Strathbungo, are not all clubs, bar Europe's recognised elite, feeder clubs where the more wealthy take the pick from the smaller clubs. So therefore have we and all other Scottish clubs, not always been and always will be feeder clubs?

The big difference would be under what some are speculating, is the purpose for which was as a club will be used. There will be zero transfer income cos all if the best players will simply be moved on to the bigger clubs within the consortium unless on the odd occasion a nugget is unearthed through a colin weir controlled academy. If any new owner allows that arrangement. I'm coming to the conclusion I'm not bright enough to grasp the enormity of the potential here.....

Yes your thoughts and mine are the same [I think].

At the moment we are a 'selling' club who will sell their exceptional talent on, and reinvest that money to further the status of PTFC, the aim being one day we finally establish the club as a top 6 SPL team.

If the rumoured new owners have it in their mind to have us the bottom tier of a football ladder which is  there only for the greater good of the club at the top of the ladder, there is a problem.

To me a scenario as describe above would end in one of two ways …. either the club would fold due to lack of interest {fan base in the hundreds] or we would, eventually, after a load of heartache have another 'Save our Jags' campaign where we try to buy ownership of the club back from whoever owns it.

In a roundabout way I am saying …… any potential owner [if they have their sensible heads on] needs to engage with the fan base before buying this club.

[Third Lanark]

1 hour ago, scotty said:

Why were you surprised? From my understanding Colin Weir was never a particularly huge Thistle fan. Before he became invoved in Partick Thistle he gave money to his local club, Irvine Thistle. This was not so much as a football fan and more as someone who knew he had been extremely lucky and wanted to share that with the local community.

The involvement with Partick Thistle was because the Weirs wanted to do something for kids and so he decided to fund grass-roots football and founded the Weir Academy with support from PTFC. The idea that some Jags fans have that the Weirs are somehow extremely rich benefactors of our club is entirely erroneous and comes from cloud cuckoo land.

I thought it was Largs Thistle he assisted with funds?

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, eljaggo said:

I suppose it depends on the quality of the club being fed.  If that club is at the top level, and funds are diverted to PTFC to pay for better quality players than we currently can afford, then that would improve our performance, our finances and re-inforce the strategy. 

The quality of Scottish football would mean that only a modest improvement in our playing resources could propel us up the leagues.

I was surprised that the Weirs did not create a family owned trust fund, professionally managed, to provide an annual income to be spent on players.  Investing say £20m would provide about £800,000 per annum while keeping the fund intact, and that would hire 3 or 4 good quality players, who might, if wisely chosen, might reap a transfer profit.

Gosh I wonder why the Weirs didn't just tie-up an eighth of their Lottery winnings just so Partick Thistle could get almost a million quid a year for free.

[Third Lanark]

35 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

I think West of Scotland was more accurate, TL, in that there were quite a few occasions recently when the number of home supporters was dipping to around the 2000 mark. My own belief is Jags fans would turn up more often and other lapsed Jags fans return to the fold if we could get a bit more pride back on and off the park. Not a dig at Caldwell but for good or bad he hasn't done much in the way of restoring that pride.

Factor in the incredible repetitiveness caused by the stupid wee leagues we play in and your team has to be entertaining when you play the same opposition every two months.

The last few games against Alloa, Ayr etc pretty sure there was near 3000 home fans there

[a f kincaid]

1 hour ago, scotty said:

Why were you surprised? From my understanding Colin Weir was never a particularly huge Thistle fan. Before he became invoved in Partick Thistle he gave money to his local club, Irvine Thistle. This was not so much as a football fan and more as someone who knew he had been extremely lucky and wanted to share that with the local community.

The involvement with Partick Thistle was because the Weirs wanted to do something for kids and so he decided to fund grass-roots football and founded the Weir Academy with support from PTFC. The idea that some Jags fans have that the Weirs are somehow extremely rich benefactors of our club is entirely erroneous and comes from cloud cuckoo land.

Irvine Thistle AFC folded in 2008 Scotty.  Think you mean Largs Thistle for whom he installed an artificial pitch.  I can remember when he won the lottery this (or the previous) site had a debate going on which Thistle he supported (Partick or Largs) and if he might invest in the club.  (I don't recall anyone suggesting at the time that he was a Rangers supporter.)  I passed Colin and his wife about a year or so ago sitting taking the evening sunshine on the prom at Largs.  Always regret not introducing myself and thanking him for his generosity.

[Lenziejag]

36 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

I think West of Scotland was more accurate, TL, in that there were quite a few occasions recently when the number of home supporters was dipping to around the 2000 mark. My own belief is Jags fans would turn up more often and other lapsed Jags fans return to the fold if we could get a bit more pride back on and off the park. Not a dig at Caldwell but for good or bad he hasn't done much in the way of restoring that pride.

Factor in the incredible repetitiveness caused by the stupid wee leagues we play in and your team has to be entertaining when you play the same opposition every two months.

I take a different view on what might bring the fans in more often and bring back the lapsed fans. Winning consistently usually does it.

[allyo]

2 hours ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

There is something I am not sure about … who has designated PTFC as potentially a feeder club to other teams in other leagues? Has this been stated by the interested parties, or is it just media speculation? I ask the question, as, If some possible owner was to see us as only a feeder to other teams in other leagues, I think the majority of the support would be uncomfortable with that situation.

The fact is, at this moment in time PTFC is a feeder club, in that we sell the exceptional talent we nourish on to other teams for them to develop further, but we do that simply because it fits with the current financial state of the club, and the current form and achievements of the club. If however PTFC were to win the Scottish Cup and gain access to European football, get promotion and achieve a higher profile within Scottish football, we would move away from being a selling club to one that attracts higher quality players.

So, as things stand today with Thistle being a feeder / selling club is directly linked with how unsuccessful or successful a team you are.

If however the aims of any new owner are that we are a feeder club, who's sole purpose is to prepare players for another team in the next level in the game I believe we would, over a period of time, lose our core support.

Thoughts ????

I think there is a difference betwen being a selling club and a feeder club, in that the feeder club would have less autonomy about whether a player moves on and whether it is in the club's interest.

I also think you make a key point, in that no one knows at this stage what the arrangement would be. I am not totally against the idea of foreign ownership, or ownership by any party which happened to own other clubs. This could happen, and as long as these owners ran Partick Thistle for the primary benefit of Partick Thistle and its supporters I would have no real problem with it.

The problem is that without more information, no one really understands what the motives would be for such a takeoover. But when the prospective buyers have no previous connections with the club, and there is talk of us being part of a "portfolio" of clubs, the alarm bells quite naturally start ringing.

It really is all down to the detail. But I think it's natural for people to have concerns at this stage.

Edited July 4, 2019 by allyo

[scotty]

17 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I thought it was Largs Thistle he assisted with funds?

Could be, I do know it was local to where he lived.