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Jag
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Message added by douglas clark

'Tis not the job of a moderator to stop people writing here. The rules are pretty simple:

reported ad hominem attacks will be investigated (and if found to be true) or write stuff that could get the site into trouble

and you'll either be warned / your post deleted, or - worst case scenario -  banned either temporarily or permanently.

This particular thread has had a vigorous exchange of views, and perhaps more heat than light. But the quality of the debate - it seems to me at least - is down to the lack of information.  That, in and of itself, means that whatever side you happen to be on is for a fan, very frustrating.

So, I have no intention of closing threads just because the quality of the postings isn't great. That is not the role of a moderator.

If you wake up the following morning you can always delete something you wish you'd never said.

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, jaf said:

Springford didn't say that

He didn't say we didn't make a loss, he said he would not criticise the previous board for financial mismanagement and would not have released the statement worded in that way

That's as I remember it. I got the impression he was tacitly saying there was overspending to accumulate (trying to get back into the top tier in a oner) but he wasn't critical of that. Just not his preferred method. I emphasise the word "impression" and others will have different interpretations. Hence why the Board should've stuck a synopsis of the meeting on the website and probably the next match programme as well.

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1 hour ago, jaf said:

Springford didn't say that

He didn't say we didn't make a loss, he said he would not criticise the previous board for financial mismanagement and would not have released the statement worded in that way

If we're being accurate then he said he wouldn't have signed off a statement saying that "existing investors had raised concerns about the direction of the club". And yet that's exactly what the statement dated 11 July said.

He also said he had no issue with the previous board running a budget deficit.

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31 minutes ago, Jagsman said:

either that or reserve it for youth academy as it will need funding for following season if this thing collapses

Normally I wouldn't have any disagreement with that. In fact I'm all in favour of windfall monies being directed away from the manager, or at least in part.

Only this time the CEO/Board have backed themselves into a corner.  A categorical statement was made that if we progress against County and get a financially favourable draw the proceeds would be passed on to the manager to enable him to bring in more players. 

If that doesn't happen then why should be believe anything that was told to us 10 or so days ago? It's bad enough fleecing the manager but fleecing the fans is unforgivable. Personally I'd have preferred that statement not to have been made and the incremental proceeds used more prudently than all going into the player budget but the Club would lose all credibility. 

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1 hour ago, Jagsman said:

i wonder what will happen with the potential 150-200k from celtic game even at reduced attendence and prize money should be around that sort of figure to make

According to Jordan Campbell on twitter we made a last minute attempt to get Josh McPake on loan before he signed for Dundee so maybe some funds have been freed up after all.

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We made a late bid to sign Josh McPake so it seems the lid has been lifted off the transfer pot?

Also nobody has stated if any of the fees received for Fitzpatrick or Lindsay went towards the academy?

So many questions, so few answers...

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2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

No you made a statement describing how this Years Budget could stack up - you used an income figure from last Year that included £850K income via Parachute and EURO Money which we dont have this Year 

So what we have No Debt - what relevance is that if we dont have a Budget that keeps the Lights on  - and we still dont have an answer as to where the £300K Investment was coming from 

 David Kelly - a Chartered Accountant who oversaw the longest period of Financial Stability at the Club for decades stating we have a Budget Shortfall that the Transfer Money from Fitz and Liam is filling  - now I suggest you go challenge that statement - tell him how he cant count  - as Im certainly not about to 

He is a Chartered Accountant - we are in the midst of a takeover - do you really think he is going to risk his Professional Reputation ?  

 

   

Ok humour isn’t your strong point .... and I’m now wondering about your English as well...

i said it was some fun to illustrate the point that in the absence of our accounts you can use figures to suit your argument  eg we overshot a budget number somebody made up or adjusted which no one knows how much it ever was 

i would have thought it was fairly obvious that if we are debt free and have no one to hold our debt then we must live within our means 

it depends on the budget , was it adjusted or unadjusted , what was the cause of the shortfall etc .... do you know ?

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2 hours ago, jaf said:

We had £550k cash reserves at the start of last season

Whether in last years accounts, or this years we don't have too much of a margin for error over the 12 months past and 12 months future; or we didn't at least prior to the player sales

 

Ok .... 550k in reserves , a parachute payment and two transfer fees plus a 300k apparently budget hole .... I make that at least £1.2m

what was it spent on ? Fairy tale stuff 

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2 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Ok .... 550k in reserves , a parachute payment and two transfer fees plus a 300k apparently budget hole .... I make that at least £1.2m

what was it spent on ? Fairy tale stuff 

The budget hole is in the future

The cash is not all it seems because the debtors were £250k lower than the short term creditors at May 2018, therefore the NET CASH at that time was £300k - to put that into perspective - Falkirk had more than double the amount of net current assets (net cash). To further put it into perspective, that is the best that figure had been for us in a long time, and a lot of hard work and financial discipline had gone into achieving that I am sure.

To put it another way, a loss of £300k or more in total over these two seasons (one actual and one budgeted) and we would not have enough money de in and in the bank to cover the amount that we were due suppliers etc. Its not a massive safety net.

If that safety net were threatened, would you be comfortable letting that scenario play out? Humour me, and assume that in your  analysis there is a missing piece of the jigsaw you are unaware of as yet that made that threat real.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, javeajag said:

Ok .... 550k in reserves , a parachute payment and two transfer fees plus a 300k apparently budget hole .... I make that at least £1.2m

what was it spent on ? Fairy tale stuff 

Ok so one of our best Financial Controllers in decades a qualified CA is making it up - what planet do you live on - seriously ?  

Your looking for Conspiracy Theories as the facts dont suit your arguement

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1 hour ago, javeajag said:

Ok .... 550k in reserves , a parachute payment and two transfer fees plus a 300k apparently budget hole .... I make that at least £1.2m

what was it spent on ? Fairy tale stuff 

also 1.2 million prize money from the Premier League as well 

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23 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok so one of our best Financial Controllers in decades a qualified CA is making it up - what planet do you live on - seriously ?  

Your looking for Conspiracy Theories as the facts dont suit your arguement

I thought we'd already established that budgets were subjective

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30 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok so one of our best Financial Controllers in decades a qualified CA is making it up - what planet do you live on - seriously ?  

Your looking for Conspiracy Theories as the facts dont suit your arguement

I don't think that there are any conspiracy theories, more like trying to understand if the budget deficit that required money to be pulled from the player budget is real or not. Is it going to impact on the clubs long term operating conditions, or is it being used to facilitate the sale ? If it is the former then we have a bigger problem than the latter.

We don't have many facts, but the ones that we do have don't add up which is why we have the speculation

 

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1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok so one of our best Financial Controllers in decades a qualified CA is making it up - what planet do you live on - seriously ?  

Your looking for Conspiracy Theories as the facts dont suit your arguement

Yeah he was in charge of the finances basically through  all of this ... who said conspiracy theories .... your trying to support  what he said without access to any numbers .... I’m questioning your theories !

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2 hours ago, jaf said:

The budget hole is in the future

The cash is not all it seems because the debtors were £250k lower than the short term creditors at May 2018, therefore the NET CASH at that time was £300k - to put that into perspective - Falkirk had more than double the amount of net current assets (net cash). To further put it into perspective, that is the best that figure had been for us in a long time, and a lot of hard work and financial discipline had gone into achieving that I am sure.

To put it another way, a loss of £300k or more in total over these two seasons (one actual and one budgeted) and we would not have enough money de in and in the bank to cover the amount that we were due suppliers etc. Its not a massive safety net.

If that safety net were threatened, would you be comfortable letting that scenario play out? Humour me, and assume that in your  analysis there is a missing piece of the jigsaw you are unaware of as yet that made that threat real.

 

 

 

Ok we don’t know if the budget was changed or adjusted and inevitably you are not covering all items in the budget as a whole but even so you have reduced my amount to c£1m that’s still a big number .....

but what was the financial mismanagement ? And we are still debt free ? 

 

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7 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The average income in the Championship is £1.3 - £1.5MN previously 

Not sure where you get £2.2MN from - that was last Seasons Budget which included £850K Parachute & EUFA Money - we get £250K this Year Total 

 

Really ?

our income for the accounts of June 2013 was .... £1.650m.... not u reasonable to assume that 6 years later it will be higher 

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5 hours ago, jaf said:

Springford didn't say that

He didn't say we didn't make a loss, he said he would not criticise the previous board for financial mismanagement and would not have released the statement worded in that way

 

What chairman of a company issues a statement on behalf of the board only for a board member to say he didn’t know about it and doesn’t agree with it ? 

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5 hours ago, jaf said:

Springford didn't say that

He didn't say we didn't make a loss, he said he would not criticise the previous board for financial mismanagement and would not have released the statement worded in that way

 

Which is standard speak from a new owner / board member after the previous owner / board has been removed. They will not (on record) leave themselves open for litigation 

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8 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Which is standard speak from a new owner / board member after the previous owner / board has been removed. They will not (on record) leave themselves open for litigation 

It is not standard practice for a Chairman to put out a statement on behalf of a board that a board member says he did not see or agree with ... correct ?

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3 hours ago, javeajag said:

Ok .... 550k in reserves , a parachute payment and two transfer fees plus a 300k apparently budget hole .... I make that at least £1.2m

what was it spent on ? Fairy tale stuff 

Paying 2 management teams for 8 months 

Paying off half a team in January

Hiring half a team in January 

Legal advice for Coulibally?

All with very low crowds last year

 

We had 35 1st team players on our books last season over the entire year. 10 coming on board in January, with one sold then, effectively paying 24 for a full season and 11 for half a season (29.5 players), If on (ave) £1000 a week, that’s £1.5 million in basic wages alone as those let go in January would probably be paid out. 

Add to that employers NI, win bonuses, appearance money etc then that adds up quickly.  You could probably add another £100 to £200k to pay both management teams.

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2 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Paying 2 management teams for 8 months 

Paying off half a team in January

Hiring half a team in January 

Legal advice for Coulibally?

All with very low crowds last year

 

We had 35 1st team players on our books last season over the entire year. 10 coming on board in January, with one sold then, effectively paying 24 for a full season and 11 for half a season (29.5 players), If on (ave) £1000 a week, that’s £1.5 million in basic wages alone as those let go in January would probably be paid out. 

Add to that employers NI, win bonuses, appearance money etc then that adds up quickly.  You could probably add another £100 to £200k to pay both management teams.

The first problem here is that our players are not on £1000 per week some were two years ago ... and it’s all guesswork as we don’t know 

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5 minutes ago, javeajag said:

The first problem here is that our players are not on £1000 per week some were two years ago ... and it’s all guesswork as we don’t know 

2 years ago several of our squad were on way more than that.

Last year a lot were there or more, including a few who came in at January, one on massively more (which fortunately kept us up). Plus the plan was to go straight back up, so speculation to accumulate seems to have happened.

The story in the herald stated from the insider that Caldwell wanted to sign 4 players and had been promised £200k for that which Beattie was now withholding. 200k over 4 players is 50k a player a year or £1000 a week. Come on Java an ex bank man like yourself should be able to calculate that.

 

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4 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

2 years ago several of our squad were on way more than that.

Last year a lot were there or more, including a few who came in at January, one on massively more (which fortunately kept us up). Plus the plan was to go straight back up, so speculation to accumulate seems to have happened.

The story in the herald stated from the insider that Caldwell wanted to sign 4 players and had been promised £200k for that which Beattie was now withholding. 200k over 4 players is 50k a player a year or £1000 a week. Come on Java an ex bank man like yourself should be able to calculate that.

 

Niall keown would definitely be on a decent wage

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6 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

2 years ago several of our squad were on way more than that.

Last year a lot were there or more, including a few who came in at January, one on massively more (which fortunately kept us up). Plus the plan was to go straight back up, so speculation to accumulate seems to have happened.

The story in the herald stated from the insider that Caldwell wanted to sign 4 players and had been promised £200k for that which Beattie was now withholding. 200k over 4 players is 50k a player a year or £1000 a week. Come on Java an ex bank man like yourself should be able to calculate that.

 

Yes two years ago I agree .... our average salary in the premiership was £52 so some more than £50k and some less but since then it’s been coming down 

you bring someone in January on say £70k but it’s for six months so it’s annualised to £35k a year and the squad now is probably costing us around £1m 

i have no doubt that Beattie invested at least part of the parachute payment in the squad before he left 

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