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Message added by douglas clark

'Tis not the job of a moderator to stop people writing here. The rules are pretty simple:

reported ad hominem attacks will be investigated (and if found to be true) or write stuff that could get the site into trouble

and you'll either be warned / your post deleted, or - worst case scenario -  banned either temporarily or permanently.

This particular thread has had a vigorous exchange of views, and perhaps more heat than light. But the quality of the debate - it seems to me at least - is down to the lack of information.  That, in and of itself, means that whatever side you happen to be on is for a fan, very frustrating.

So, I have no intention of closing threads just because the quality of the postings isn't great. That is not the role of a moderator.

If you wake up the following morning you can always delete something you wish you'd never said.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/1/2019 at 7:01 AM, jlsarmy said:

That’s a great return on an investment over 10 years especially in today’s financial climate.

Not sure it is tbh.

If they'd stuck the money in a tracker fund over 10 years it would have more than doubled.

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On 10/1/2019 at 6:52 PM, scotty said:

I’ve decided to give posting in this thread a break for now. Mainly because I see the arguments going round in circles and getting more personal as time goes ever so slowly by. I am getting more convinced by the day that the sale to the consortium is already a done deal.

I am a staunch advocate for social ownership. Not just for football clubs but in many areas of society. Land ownership, housing, community centres, leisure facilities and power generation just to name a few. I do believe ordinary people can run social enterprises for the benefit of the community they are a part of. We do not always need external experts or professional business people to run our lives for us. If we take the opportunity we can shape our own society to the way that suits us best.

So, to me Thistle fans owning their own club is a no-brainer and I believe it may be the only way for us to have a Partick Thistle we can continue to support and be proud of. We will be able to support our team to succeed on the pitch for footballing reasons and not because it brings a profit to shareholders whose only interest in PTFC is to make money. We want teams who do well and win because they are OUR teams and not because we can squeeze a bit more cash from the club. Football would be the biggest factor in our interest. Not just looking for a financial return by getting higher in the league. . We would be building and preserving the club for our children and grandchildren.

Much of the objections on this thread have become personality driven. The people behind the move towards fan ownership are disliked by some posters. Others have a dislike to other personalities and nothing they do will ever be right with them. Some have a mistrust running so deep they wouldn’t believe the time of day from any of the other side.

Then on the other hand there’s people who staunchly back the consortium purely because they trust the current chair and because he says it’s a good idea. They back his plans no matter how vague and indeterminate they are.

Well as I said I am all for fan ownership and as of yet there is no hard and fast template for how that would go with Thistle. But the fact is it is fans who will shape the future of the organisation which will run the club if they decide to go down that road. The more fans who become involved the wider the knowledge base to draw on. The more ideas there will be to choose from.

So if the TFE ideas do move on to a further stage I will be ready to step up to do what I can. But until then I will watch things unfold and I only hope that by the time things do become a bit clearer that it’s not too late.

What you say is all correct and in an ideal world is probably be  what every right minded Thistle fan would want.

Sadly, in the harsh reality of the real world things dont work like that.

A large collection of fans , all well intentioned and enthusiastic, each trying to have their input into how the Club should be run , is a recipe for disaster. It just is.

Look at the disagreements and differences of opinion on this Forum. With a collection of fans of different ages; socio economic backgrounds; business acumen; experience etc all trying to have a say and each with their own wee pet projects/ agendas, it just would not work.

I love the idea in principle but No...............

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Emsca said:

What you say is all correct and in an ideal world is probably be  what every right minded Thistle fan would want.

Sadly, in the harsh reality of the real world things dont work like that.

A large collection of fans , all well intentioned and enthusiastic, each trying to have their input into how the Club should be run , is a recipe for disaster. It just is.

Look at the disagreements and differences of opinion on this Forum. With a collection of fans of different ages; socio economic backgrounds; business acumen; experience etc all trying to have a say and each with their own wee pet projects/ agendas, it just would not work.

I love the idea in principle but No...............

 

 

 

What’s the difference between having a Board of Directors having differences of opinion which they obviously have had or there wouldn’t have had a boardroom coup, I deal with with business clients who are successful in their own right regardless of their backgrounds.

The fans who would be elected to the Board would obviously have a business background and unlike an Investment Company would have a feeling for the Club.

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4 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Must be a hell of a Tracker , I’m obviously going to the wrong places .

Like all investments and their performance it depends on when you start and stop the measuring timing is everything but no one on our board put money into the club looking at it as an financial investment so anything they get now is a bonus for them... the issue for me is to sell to people who care for the club and don’t view it as a financial instrument just like they didn’t 

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18 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Must be a hell of a Tracker , I’m obviously going to the wrong places .

Ok - despite it being pointed out to you that No Director is making a profit on there original purchase of Shares you continue to peddle this line 

Please stop - as Ronnie and Norman clearly stated they are making No Profit - you know this because you were at the Q&A session 

And I will ask again was there Communications between the Thistle Trust & TFE prior to Thistle Trust issuing there statement on the same day as TFE announced there Colin Weir Bid 

Were all Members of the Thistle Trust Board consulted and in agreement with the statement

If it were all about Money - why have they not accepted the TFE / Weir bid for there Shares & Propco - you may wish to think on that ?  

    

 

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15 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Like all investments and their performance it depends on when you start and stop the measuring timing is everything but no one on our board put money into the club looking at it as an financial investment so anything they get now is a bonus for them... the issue for me is to sell to people who care for the club and don’t view it as a financial instrument just like they didn’t 

But there is No Profit being made on the Original Share Purchases - so why are you talking as it there is ? 

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26 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

What’s the difference between having a Board of Directors having differences of opinion which they obviously have had or there wouldn’t have had a boardroom coup, I deal with with business clients who are successful in their own right regardless of their backgrounds.

The fans who would be elected to the Board would obviously have a business background and unlike an Investment Company would have a feeling for the Club.

Why is it obvious they would have a "Business Background " where are all these Thistle Minded Successful Businessman ?  As they must be hiding somewhere over the last 20 Years 

 

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7 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok - despite it being pointed out to you that No Director is making a profit on there original purchase of Shares you continue to peddle this line 

Please stop - as Ronnie and Norman clearly stated they are making No Profit - you know this because you were at the Q&A session 

And I will ask again was there Communications between the Thistle Trust & TFE prior to Thistle Trust issuing there statement on the same day as TFE announced there Colin Weir Bid 

Were all Members of the Thistle Trust Board consulted and in agreement with the statement

If it were all about Money - why have they not accepted the TFE / Weir bid for there Shares & Propco - you may wish to think on that ?  

    

 

Sorry JJ , there are people not on the current Board who are known to both you and I , some of them have got between 3 and 7% shares , are you really telling me there is nothing in it for them ?

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7 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Why is it obvious they would have a "Business Background " where are all these Thistle Minded Successful Businessman ?  As they must be hiding somewhere over the last 20 Years 

 

Of course there are business people out there who aren’t on the Board , we’ve got sponsors who are indirectly connected to PTFC who might want to step up , things evolve over a period of time or we would still have Miller Reid or Jim Oliver.

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18 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

But there is No Profit being made on the Original Share Purchases - so why are you talking as it there is ? 

I’m not and didnt say that.... did you read the post ? I said they didn’t put in money expecting anything back that wasn t their motivation so anything they get is an unexpected bonus ... chill 

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41 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

But there is No Profit being made on the Original Share Purchases - so why are you talking as it there is ? 

I should also add we don’t know if they are making money or losing money .. you May know .... the rest of us are in the dark on everything 

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1 hour ago, javeajag said:

We could have a discussion on active and passive investment strategies ? !

We could. Bit boring for everyone else though. Would prefer to discuss :

Sneddon v Fox

Flat back four v 3 at back with 2 wing backs .

How to accomodate Banzo , Cole, Slater and Palmer. 

etc etc.

For what its worth, unless you have specialist knowledge or get lucky with your timing, a tracker is as good as anything and cheaper.  

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12 minutes ago, Emsca said:

We could. Bit boring for everyone else though. Would prefer to discuss :

Sneddon v Fox

Flat back four v 3 at back with 2 wing backs .

How to accomodate Banzo , Cole, Slater and Palmer. 

etc etc.

For what its worth, unless you have specialist knowledge or get lucky with your timing, a tracker is as good as anything and cheaper.  

Yes I agree the evidence on active investment management being superior is not there....trackers are fine .... 

It’s  either 
 

4 4 2 or 4 3 3

i always prefer managers who have clear system they prefer and get players who make that system work .... at our level it has a better chance of success 

 

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2 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Sorry JJ , there are people not on the current Board who are known to both you and I , some of them have got between 3 and 7% shares , are you really telling me there is nothing in it for them ?

Ok I accept that - however the simple fact is that from the outset there has been a narrative put out - that it was simply people cashing in and a whole load of crap thrown at  David Beattie  - I have said from the outset that for some Shareholders it would be about the Money - however the vast majority its not and they are making zero profit 

If its simply about Money they are offered a guaranteed payment and buy back of Propco by TEF /Weir instead of the risk of the Consortium deal falling  through - but they have stuck with the latter - so people may wish to ask why - why are they not taking the TEF deal ? After all the rhetoric put out was that it was simply about Money 

Name one thing they have got wrong since they came back - on Finances or on the park - name one thing they have not been as open as they can on 

So whilst there will be a Windfall - unless they are convinced its in the Clubs interests they arent taking the cash and running - thats very very clear           

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2 hours ago, javeajag said:

I should also add we don’t know if they are making money or losing money .. you May know .... the rest of us are in the dark on everything 

this was  stated at the Q&A by Norman & Ronnie - they are not making a profit and in reality over the period are losing money   

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2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok I accept that - however the simple fact is that from the outset there has been a narrative put out - that it was simply people cashing in and a whole load of crap thrown at  David Beattie  - I have said from the outset that for some Shareholders it would be about the Money - however the vast majority its not and they are making zero profit 

If its simply about Money they are offered a guaranteed payment and buy back of Propco by TEF /Weir instead of the risk of the Consortium deal falling  through - but they have stuck with the latter - so people may wish to ask why - why are they not taking the TEF deal ? After all the rhetoric put out was that it was simply about Money 

Name one thing they have got wrong since they came back - on Finances or on the park - name one thing they have not been as open as they can on 

So whilst there will be a Windfall - unless they are convinced its in the Clubs interests they arent taking the cash and running - thats very very clear           

I think the basic problem you have here is that it’s not unreasonable for the fans of a football club to want to know who is buying their club , why they are buying it and what the plans are. But we are told no you cant.

just to be told trust the directors to do the right thing I’m afraid isn’t good enough to allay the concerns  that people have because for every right decision there can be bad ones as no one - apart from me obviously - is infallible ........you say rightly that good decisions have been made recently and they have but that will not go on forever as the past demonstrates .... who made Jacqui low chairman ? David Beattie ....Who refused to let Archie go when even wanted to go ? David Beattie ...Who kept our cost base too high when we got relegated ? David Beattie

so anyone can make good or bad decisions .....it’s a bit sad that we are selling the club to people who have no emotional connection with us and  for whom it’s a simple financial transaction. The day that happens a little bit of the club will die.

 

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13 minutes ago, Dark Passenger said:

I'd like to correct one small thing, if I may? Ronnie said he expected to make a loss. Norman said that any profit banked would be placed in a charitable trust.

And both of them made it very very clear it wasn't about the money as they never expected to get anything back 

And if it was "simply money" as some people on Social Media have been pushing - they would bite the hand off TEF /Weir - say its for the Fans and for a number of Shareholders get a Propco refund also 

But they haven't - and in addition have stated  they are there for as long as needed -Consortium Sale or Not 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, javeajag said:

I think the basic problem you have here is that it’s not unreasonable for the fans of a football club to want to know who is buying their club , why they are buying it and what the plans are. But we are told no you cant.

just to be told trust the directors to do the right thing I’m afraid isn’t good enough to allay the concerns  that people have because for every right decision there can be bad ones as no one - apart from me obviously - is infallible ........you say rightly that good decisions have been made recently and they have but that will not go on forever as the past demonstrates .... who made Jacqui low chairman ? David Beattie ....Who refused to let Archie go when even wanted to go ? David Beattie ...Who kept our cost base too high when we got relegated ? David Beattie

so anyone can make good or bad decisions .....it’s a bit sad that we are selling the club to people who have no emotional connection with us and  for whom it’s a simple financial transaction. The day that happens a little bit of the club will die.

 

Our M&A are clearly constructed that the Chairman ONLY chairs the Board Meetings and has a casting Vote - therefore David Beattie DID NOT make these decisions ALL Directors made them collectively 

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