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New Owner

douglas clark

'Tis not the job of a moderator to stop people writing here. The rules are pretty simple:

reported ad hominem attacks will be investigated (and if found to be true) or write stuff that could get the site into trouble

and you'll either be warned / your post deleted, or - worst case scenario -  banned either temporarily or permanently.

This particular thread has had a vigorous exchange of views, and perhaps more heat than light. But the quality of the debate - it seems to me at least - is down to the lack of information.  That, in and of itself, means that whatever side you happen to be on is for a fan, very frustrating.

So, I have no intention of closing threads just because the quality of the postings isn't great. That is not the role of a moderator.

If you wake up the following morning you can always delete something you wish you'd never said.

 

 

 

 

 

Message added by douglas clark

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5 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So the answer is No Then as thats hardly due diligence 

I notice your not addressing the fact that Beattie has said he has done no due diligence on the consortium while being upset at six jag fans who sit six rows from you in the jhs 

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3 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Ok JJ....can you give us all the answers to all the questions you have for TFE for the consortium please ?  I get you don’t like community ownership so you should advocate why you support the investment company taking over the club .....we now have two possible futures but only one is engaging with the fans why is that don’t the consortium care about us ? 

Colin Weir, having already sunk millions into Thistle with no obvious signs of wanting personal gain, now offers to cover the costs for the club going into ownership by fans, and suddenly JJ comes up with all sorts of "questions." Quelle surprise.

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8 hours ago, Big Col said:

Even if it was a gift, he’d still want to know it’s being looked after and run properly. Would you not? I know I would.

Then it isn’t a gift. When you give a gift of money to someone say for a birthday to you tell them how to spend that money?

 

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8 hours ago, scotty said:

The difference is with TfE you'll be able to have a say in decisions. I very much doubt the consortium will offer you that.

How would you get a say ? If Colin Weir is funding the takeover, there is now no need to get pledges from fans. So all the say will be with the tfe group leading this takeover 

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1 minute ago, Lenziejag said:

How would you get a say ? If Colin Weir is funding the takeover, there is now no need to get pledges from fans. So all the say will be with the tfe group leading this takeover 

Again, the governence set-up which has still to be issued in detail should allow for members to have a say. If not then it's not a fan owned club. I've not seen anyone claim that Co;in Weir will fund this to an extent that no other fans will put money into it.

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2 hours ago, Garscube Road End said:

Could Trump and Johnson be part of TfE?

No. They can f*** off

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22 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

How would you get a say ? If Colin Weir is funding the takeover, there is now no need to get pledges from fans. So all the say will be with the tfe group leading this takeover 

That’s not how community ownership works 

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28 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Then it isn’t a gift. When you give a gift of money to someone say for a birthday to you tell them how to spend that money?

 

Why not just say I don’t want the fans to own the club and prefer the consortium......first it was we won’t gave the finance , now its the governance .....of course there is a lot of detail to work out but at this stage we are being asked to decide on two high level approaches ....so why not outline how the consortium will work ?

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Okay, so I accept that there are questions to be asked of the TfE proposals. It's right that these questions should be asked, and that proposals should be challenged. There are financial aspects which many on here understand better than I do, which have to addressed.

But this bid has only just come to light. There is an opportunity for the questions to be asked, and for honest and open responses to be given and I hope they will be. There's little point in criticising a lack of information before the questions have even been asked.

On the other hand, the Chien Lee bid has been on the table since June and we're none the wiser.

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54 minutes ago, allyo said:

Okay, so I accept that there are questions to be asked of the TfE proposals. It's right that these questions should be asked, and that proposals should be challenged. There are financial aspects which many on here understand better than I do, which have to addressed.

But this bid has only just come to light. There is an opportunity for the questions to be asked, and for honest and open responses to be given and I hope they will be. There's little point in criticising a lack of information before the questions have even been asked.

On the other hand, the Chien Lee bid has been on the table since June and we're none the wiser.

Agree with this

If the TFE proposal is that Colin Weir will fund the fan purchase of the club, he's not expecting his person to sit on the board or run the club and will buy out propco its sounds like too good an offer to not get behind. I would still like to see the 5 year plan TFE have mentioned and also who they would install as chairman and board of directors.

The New City consortium seems to be a mystery box. In theory a billionaire backer looks good but there is no evidence that he has massively invested in Lyon or Barnsley and some counter evidence with Lyon of getting the club to pay off his loans with a percentage on top.

Colin Weir at least has some history of providing funding without expecting repayment and if it wasn't for his mistake with Jackie Low we would probably all still think he was a great guy.

My preffered option would be TFE with Beattie as Chairman if possible

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Personally I don't want either. What's wrong with the club running as it is? Are they all really desperate for their money?

Everyone says how much Colin done for the club with no personal gain. Yes he took no money from the club and put lots in, our youth has flourished but don't forget he was responsible for Jacqui and her board which in little over 12 months have caused the club to lose its identity. 

We still have no training ground, despite it being promised too.

As for Chien Lee and Paul Conway, we don't really know enough about them. The way they are running Barnsley is interesting but absolutely nothing to say we will be run the same way.

 

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8 minutes ago, stuart_adam said:

Personally I don't want either. What's wrong with the club running as it is? Are they all really desperate for their money?

Everyone says how much Colin done for the club with no personal gain. Yes he took no money from the club and put lots in, our youth has flourished but don't forget he was responsible for Jacqui and her board which in little over 12 months have caused the club to lose its identity. 

We still have no training ground, despite it being promised too.

As for Chien Lee and Paul Conway, we don't really know enough about them. The way they are running Barnsley is interesting but absolutely nothing to say we will be run the same way.

I might be wrong but now Wier has fallen out with the current board there is no 'as is' option. Either new money has to come in or we downsize.

I would take it that the training ground will never happen and its the first part of downsizing. Not sure we needed it to begin with so not losing any sleep over it.

The youth setup going would be more of a concern for me and I think thats next unless new money comes in.

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18 minutes ago, stuart_adam said:

Personally I don't want either. What's wrong with the club running as it is? Are they all really desperate for their money?

Everyone says how much Colin done for the club with no personal gain. Yes he took no money from the club and put lots in, our youth has flourished but don't forget he was responsible for Jacqui and her board which in little over 12 months have caused the club to lose its identity. 

We still have no training ground, despite it being promised too.

As for Chien Lee and Paul Conway, we don't really know enough about them. The way they are running Barnsley is interesting but absolutely nothing to say we will be run the same way.

 

For the simple reason that the current board and shareholders want out... the status quo is therefore not an option 

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Fan ownership is a nice ideal, but the success of it depends on the quality of Board appointees. I would hope that the fans chosen are fully representative of the wider fanbase, rather than just (day) from one particular supporters bus.

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11 minutes ago, sandy said:

Fan ownership is a nice ideal, but the success of it depends on the quality of Board appointees. I would hope that the fans chosen are fully representative of the wider fanbase, rather than just (day) from one particular supporters bus.

Hi Sandy - could I ask why you think that the Board needs to be appointed from the fan base? The idea of fans having to perform the executive function just because they own the shares seems to be a common misconception.

I suppose for a business like ours, it’s more likely that supporters would volunteer their time, and that any external board member might want to be remunerated, but that’s not necessarily the case.

But on this point we agree: the ongoing success of any fan ownership model will be dictated by the quality of the board, and the company’s ability to either operate the business at break even, or to attract additional investment  from within the fan base.

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As javeajag says the shareholders want their money out.  On the basis that a sale WILL take place and the shareholders will get their money either way it comes down to which group offers the best future for Partick Thistle - assuming that the consortium actually get approval from the football authorities in Scotland and England. If approval is not given this new bid becomes the only show in town for the shareholders who want out.  In the meantime, while we wait on a decision from the SFA and the EFL (or whoever is responsible down there)Thistle for Ever are offering to engage with the fans and the shareholders so any questions can be answered.

 

 

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One point that I would appreciate someone clearing up is that our Board need to certify that Chien Lee and Paul Conway are in their view fit and proper persons to own the club , how do they do that if they have done no due diligence on them ?

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The TFE bid is an interesting prospect especially the part about returning the entireity of Firhill to the clubs ownership, however it does raise a lot of questions about who would run the club. There are a lot of people who will want to run it but should be nowhere near the place , speaking from my experiences with the jags Trust a few years back :)

Any fans takeover should not exclude any existing directors from running the place as to be frank they have the experince of running the busines , and yeah I know there are many other fans out there running substantially bigger business.

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32 minutes ago, Junior said:

The TFE bid is an interesting prospect especially the part about returning the entireity of Firhill to the clubs ownership, however it does raise a lot of questions about who would run the club. There are a lot of people who will want to run it but should be nowhere near the place , speaking from my experiences with the jags Trust a few years back :)

Any fans takeover should not exclude any existing directors from running the place as to be frank they have the experince of running the busines , and yeah I know there are many other fans out there running substantially bigger business.

Agree Junior. Maybe there is an argument for some continuity from existing Board into any new Board structure created by fan ownership.

Personally, I don’t see why Beattie should not continue.

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38 minutes ago, Junior said:

The TFE bid is an interesting prospect especially the part about returning the entireity of Firhill to the clubs ownership, however it does raise a lot of questions about who would run the club. There are a lot of people who will want to run it but should be nowhere near the place , speaking from my experiences with the jags Trust a few years back :)

Any fans takeover should not exclude any existing directors from running the place as to be frank they have the experince of running the busines , and yeah I know there are many other fans out there running substantially bigger business.

There’s a lot of fans running businesses, but there isn’t any other business like a football club. The split of revenue is ridiculous - even in the huge clubs - apply a normal business model to any football club & it’d last 2 minutes. 

Need a mix of strong business minds & experiences football people. Maybe McCall part of the bigger picture here? 

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2 hours ago, allyo said:

Okay, so I accept that there are questions to be asked of the TfE proposals. It's right that these questions should be asked, and that proposals should be challenged. There are financial aspects which many on here understand better than I do, which have to addressed.

But this bid has only just come to light. There is an opportunity for the questions to be asked, and for honest and open responses to be given and I hope they will be. There's little point in criticising a lack of information before the questions have even been asked.

On the other hand, the Chien Lee bid has been on the table since June and we're none the wiser.

TfE have communicated openly and non-stop with the fans, publishing info and answering questions directly via all channels open to them.

Contrast with the consortium, who have not only not given any information but, as PTFC Trust statements have made clear, have actively refused requests from our board to meet the fan trusts.

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I think the concerns about TfE largely stem from the misconception that 'fan ownership' means 'fan management'.  I own shares in Marks & Spencer, but I don't run the company (so don't complain to me).

I share the worries at the prospect of fans managing the club, if it's anything like what happens on here! Can you picture it? It'd be like one of those bar fights in the old Westerns, folk flying out windows, broken windaes and blood in the sawdust, just waiting for the sheriff to walk in.

Fortunately, experience elsewhere indicates that's not how it works in practice. Instead, clubs are run by people competent to do so while being held accountable by the fans/owners.

As things stand, I hope the current owners grab this offer from TfE with both hands. It's real, it's practical, it doesn't require cross-border permission - it could be done and dusted fairly quickly.

Let's hope tomorrow's AGM results in a good, positive future for the club.

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3 hours ago, javeajag said:

Ok JJ....can you give us all the answers to all the questions you have for TFE for the consortium please ?  I get you don’t like community ownership so you should advocate why you support the investment company taking over the club .....we now have two possible futures but only one is engaging with the fans why is that don’t the consortium care about us ? 

Its very Simple - TFE are putting themselves forward as the spokespeople for the Fans - St Mirren a comparable Club have pledges of 2000 including a Number of Small Businesses - TFE are Claiming "hundreds therefore the measure of there Support is how much has been pledged by Fans - otherwise its a Group of Guys with Colin Weir - so if there "engaging" why arent they stating how much they have in pledges ? 

 

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