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Jag
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'Tis not the job of a moderator to stop people writing here. The rules are pretty simple:

reported ad hominem attacks will be investigated (and if found to be true) or write stuff that could get the site into trouble

and you'll either be warned / your post deleted, or - worst case scenario -  banned either temporarily or permanently.

This particular thread has had a vigorous exchange of views, and perhaps more heat than light. But the quality of the debate - it seems to me at least - is down to the lack of information.  That, in and of itself, means that whatever side you happen to be on is for a fan, very frustrating.

So, I have no intention of closing threads just because the quality of the postings isn't great. That is not the role of a moderator.

If you wake up the following morning you can always delete something you wish you'd never said.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

If you look at it carefully javeajag , there is no chance they are here for the long term , they are in the process of moving on Nice football Club, they invested in Nice football club and are currently in the process of selling it on for a healthy profit ,

They’ve had Nice for less than 2 yrs , these guys are interested in making money, nothing else 

They’ve obviously looked at our Club from whatever angle and think they can get a return on their investment.

Not sure if this is the road we should go down .

 

They are on public record in relation to Barnsley in saying they are long term investors and on the Barnsley fans forum fans have been surprised by the amount of time Conway actually spends at the club

you can’t compare us and Nice ....I cannot see how after two years you could sell us for a profit big enough that would mean anything to a billionaire ?! 

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2 minutes ago, jaf said:

Honestly?  

On what basis?   They don’t have deep pockets and so far have presided over only loss making off the park and under performance on the field. 

Are you one of the rumoured “direct message from the chair” brigade  or are these your own thoughts?  

 

On what basis? On the basis that I don't think anyone's likely to achieve it. I'm a pessimist, though.

And no, I can honestly say that I haven't received any messages from anyone on the board. Not now, not ever. 

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51 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok ask yourself this - Why Now - this was obviously a complicated deal to pull together - not all parties know each other that well - Some of them dont even like each other - but what changed over the End of Last Season for this to happen ? For a proactive joining of forces to occur - now you could say Money - but at least a third of those involved are very wealthy -there Thistle Fans - there not selling the Club down the River for in there Nett Worth - not a lot 

So people need to ask themselves - Why ?  Something was the Catalyst for such a dramatic change ? 

   

What then was the reason? I’m sorry but if it was Doolan leaving that’s caused this then that’s farcical- the handling of his departure was poor but his performances last season were even poorer.

like I said Hughes and Cowan were on the verge of letting the club go bust under their tenure and only selling Harkins saved that - the club nearly going bust is far worse than releasing Doolan 

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1 hour ago, javeajag said:

 

can somebody articulate the strategy of our current board ?

To go back to where we belong playing “the partick thistle way” with an essential to the future shiny new training ground by summer 2019 was the last strategic proclamation I recall. 

 

ETA for context :

 

i never believed we belonged in spl , nor would you if you understood our history

i don’t know what playing the partick thistle way even means

we don’t have a training ground 

 

 

Edited by jaf
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1 minute ago, Dark Passenger said:

On what basis? On the basis that I don't think anyone's likely to achieve it. I'm a pessimist, though.

And no, I can honestly say that I haven't received any messages from anyone on the board. Not now, not ever. 

Fair enough. 

Perhaps dare to dream?  

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7 minutes ago, javeajag said:

They are on public record in relation to Barnsley in saying they are long term investors and on the Barnsley fans forum fans have been surprised by the amount of time Conway actually spends at the club

you can’t compare us and Nice ....I cannot see how after two years you could sell us for a profit big enough that would mean anything to a billionaire ?! 

Bill Clinton was on public record as saying he did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky! Closer to home our chairman was on record as saying our training ground would be operational now and you often remind us of this. What we need is communication from the people who want to own the club and then we can make a more informed judgement.

Also why in every article about the consortium we are told to look at what they have done at Nice and Barnsley but when someone mentions something less than positive we are told not to compare us with Nice?

Again I am not totally against this but I would like information from those involved - not articles from someone else on what he thinks they might do. As the current board are getting a kicking on here and one area where that could be fair is communication can I ask you - what do you think of the communication we have had from our potential new owners so far?

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11 minutes ago, javeajag said:

They are on public record in relation to Barnsley in saying they are long term investors and on the Barnsley fans forum fans have been surprised by the amount of time Conway actually spends at the club

you can’t compare us and Nice ....I cannot see how after two years you could sell us for a profit big enough that would mean anything to a billionaire ?! 

Why get involved in the first place then, a hobby ?

Business people with that amount of wealth don’t need the hassle if they don’t think there is money to be made . They’ve got no affiliation to our Club so I’ve no idea what their motives are apart from making money.

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1 minute ago, Fawlty Towers said:

Bill Clinton was on public record as saying he did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky! Closer to home our chairman was on record as saying our training ground would be operational now and you often remind us of this. What we need is communication from the people who want to own the club and then we can make a more informed judgement.

Also why in every article about the consortium we are told to look at what they have done at Nice and Barnsley but when someone mentions something less than positive we are told not to compare us with Nice?

Again I am not totally against this but I would like information from those involved - not articles from someone else on what he thinks they might do. As the current board are getting a kicking on here and one area where that could be fair is communication can I ask you - what do you think of the communication we have had from our potential new owners so far?

You can only judge people on wha they say and then do .....we are not Nice is fairly obvious they are in top half  in one of Europe’s top leagues and have recently been in the champions league ....they therefore have a value way beyond us 

our new owners have not yet been confirmed as our new owners yet so I dont expect any communication from them till that is official 

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4 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Why get involved in the first place then, a hobby ?

Business people with that amount of wealth don’t need the hassle if they don’t think there is money to be made . They’ve got no affiliation to our Club so I’ve no idea what their motives are apart from making money.

Your first point is a good question 

your second point .....explain how anyone could make money our of us ? 

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Just now, javeajag said:

You can’t asset strip a company with no assets and if you pile it with debt no one will buy it 

We own half of Firhill, they will get the rest of the stadium from Propco at a knock down price.

They will purchase the club through a leveraged buy out. They won't use any of their own money. As long as they buy it for less than the assets are worth they will be quids in.

Let's say that it costs the consortium £2 Million to buy out the shareholders and Propco. The consortium now owns Partick Thistle Ltd a company that has no debts and assets (Firhill) that are worth say,  £4 Million.

The new company then splits Partick Thistle Ltd into 3 different companies to realise the assets.

(1) Firhill is sold by Company One for £4 million, this money is used to pay the initial leveraged loan that consortium took out to buy the club in the first instance, which would be £2 Million plus fees and interest. So the consortium would make a quick 1.5 million which would then be siphoned off to the consortium through  Company 3.

(2) Company One would either be saddled with a large mortgage on Firhill, or would lease the ground from it's new owners, either way it doen't matter, the club is basically toast. If and when we default on the debt/lease it doesn't really matter as the asset and the money raised from it is long gone. We will probably end up ground sharing at Hamilton or Clyde (if we're lucky).

(3) Company 2 will be fairly clean as this will be the footballing side of the business, this will provide hopefully another income stream for the consortium through transfer sell on fees, which will again be siphoned off through Company 3.

Open your eyes, look at what they have done at Nice.

 

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1 hour ago, AndyMac said:

Think some posters are way off the mark. These people are not investors, nor are they sugar daddies ala Colin Weir. They're asset strippers.

They will not invest a penny of their own money and they will saddle the club with crippling debt, before heading for the exit with a wheel barrow full of cash. Open your eyes look at what has happened at Nice.

I hope whoever got the ball rolling on this at our end are enjoying the fruits of their labour and that the brown envelope was stuffed nice and full :thumbdown:

 

 

Is it what has happened at Barnsley as well ? If so, your concerns as very valid - if not, then not so much.

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1 minute ago, AndyMac said:

We own half of Firhill, they will get the rest of the stadium from Propco at a knock down price.

They will purchase the club through a leveraged buy out. They won't use any of their own money. As long as they buy it for less than the assets are worth they will be quids in.

Let's say that it costs the consortium £2 Million to buy out the shareholders and Propco. The consortium now owns Partick Thistle Ltd a company that has no debts and assets (Firhill) that are worth say,  £4 Million.

The new company then splits Partick Thistle Ltd into 3 different companies to realise the assets.

(1) Firhill is sold by Company One for £4 million, this money is used to pay the initial leveraged loan that consortium took out to buy the club in the first instance, which would be £2 Million plus fees and interest. So the consortium would make a quick 1.5 million which would then be siphoned off to the consortium through  Company 3.

(2) Company One would either be saddled with a large mortgage on Firhill, or would lease the ground from it's new owners, either way it doen't matter, the club is basically toast. If and when we default on the debt/lease it doesn't really matter as the asset and the money raised from it is long gone. We will probably end up ground sharing at Hamilton or Clyde (if we're lucky).

(3) Company 2 will be fairly clean as this will be the footballing side of the business, this will provide hopefully another income stream for the consortium through transfer sell on fees, which will again be siphoned off through Company 3.

Open your eyes, look at what they have done at Nice.

 

Assets  ok let’s say your house.  It  is only worth what someone would pay for it ....no one has ever worked out how to make money from selling firhill.....who would buy it and for what purpose?....it’s in a shit location . The club  is worth £4m on paper nothing else that’s why you can buy it for way less than £4m

who is providing the leverage ?

nobody is going to buy a small club like ours leveraged with debt ....no one ....that’s why it’s not a strategy 

 

your prediction might work for nice but but why bother with a business with a £2-3m turnover ?

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7 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

We own half of Firhill, they will get the rest of the stadium from Propco at a knock down price.

They will purchase the club through a leveraged buy out. They won't use any of their own money. As long as they buy it for less than the assets are worth they will be quids in.

Let's say that it costs the consortium £2 Million to buy out the shareholders and Propco. The consortium now owns Partick Thistle Ltd a company that has no debts and assets (Firhill) that are worth say,  £4 Million.

The new company then splits Partick Thistle Ltd into 3 different companies to realise the assets.

(1) Firhill is sold by Company One for £4 million, this money is used to pay the initial leveraged loan that consortium took out to buy the club in the first instance, which would be £2 Million plus fees and interest. So the consortium would make a quick 1.5 million which would then be siphoned off to the consortium through  Company 3.

(2) Company One would either be saddled with a large mortgage on Firhill, or would lease the ground from it's new owners, either way it doen't matter, the club is basically toast. If and when we default on the debt/lease it doesn't really matter as the asset and the money raised from it is long gone. We will probably end up ground sharing at Hamilton or Clyde (if we're lucky).

(3) Company 2 will be fairly clean as this will be the footballing side of the business, this will provide hopefully another income stream for the consortium through transfer sell on fees, which will again be siphoned off through Company 3.

Open your eyes, look at what they have done at Nice.

 

Apart from they can’t. Because at best they will have 55% of the company and some of those manoeuvres would require 75% shareholder approval under uk company law. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Is it what has happened at Barnsley as well ? If so, your concerns as very valid - if not, then not so much.

I’ve just looked at Barnsley’s accounts. 

No complex corporate structures have been out in place. They bought shares in Barnsley (through an investment vehicle)  and that remains the company that is trading and that they inhabit the board of  

There have been no asset sales (except for players). 

The debt is £6m lower than when they acquired the club  

I think we can safely say we can be glad this consortium is buying the club and not Andy mac with his creative and complex ideas of financial engineering!!!

 

Edited by jaf
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I personally can't think of any Scottish club that has benefitted long term from serious external investment, other than where the investment itself is long term, e.g Ross County. 

You can pretty much go through Scottish football and most clubs are where you expect them to be based on support etc. There's no magic wand.

Where in recent years there have been serious exceptions to that, it has mostly been through dodgy financing gone wrong, Rangers, Hearts etc.

The club's who over achieve, like St Johnstone, appear to do so on a sound and modest business model.

So where are the examples that we can point to and say, it worked for them so it can work for us?

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3 minutes ago, allyo said:

I personally can't think of any Scottish club that has benefitted long term from serious external investment, other than where the investment itself is long term, e.g Ross County. 

You can pretty much go through Scottish football and most clubs are where you expect them to be based on support etc. There's no magic wand.

Where in recent years there have been serious exceptions to that, it has mostly been through dodgy financing gone wrong, Rangers, Hearts etc.

The club's who over achieve, like St Johnstone, appear to do so on a sound and modest business model.

So where are the examples that we can point to and say, it worked for them so it can work for us?

I think you need to stand back here .....

are you saying that serious long term investment is bad ?!

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6 minutes ago, allyo said:

I personally can't think of any Scottish club that has benefitted long term from serious external investment, other than where the investment itself is long term, e.g Ross County. 

You can pretty much go through Scottish football and most clubs are where you expect them to be based on support etc. There's no magic wand.

Where in recent years there have been serious exceptions to that, it has mostly been through dodgy financing gone wrong, Rangers, Hearts etc.

The club's who over achieve, like St Johnstone, appear to do so on a sound and modest business model.

So where are the examples that we can point to and say, it worked for them so it can work for us?

Where’s the examples of clubs with boardrooms populated entirely with people with no financial stake in the club?!  

As  for st Johnstone. Great example of a well run club.  Not entirely supportive of your argument though as I suspect they are only where they are today by selling their ground to Asda and being gifted ground to build a new stadium. Long term investment in a roundabout way. 

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2 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Assets  ok let’s say your house.  It  is only worth what someone would pay for it ....no one has ever worked out how to make money from selling firhill.....who would buy it and for what purpose?....it’s in a shit location . The club  is worth £4m on paper nothing else that’s why you can buy it for way less than £4m

who is providing the leverage ?

nobody is going to buy a small club like ours leveraged with debt ....no one ....that’s why it’s not a strategy 

 

your prediction might work for nice but but why bother with a business with a £2-3m turnover ?

Bear with me Javeajag. This is my understanding of the set up, however I may be wrong.

Partick Thistle is pretty much debt free.

Propco own the Main Stand and the Bing, the club pay a rental/interest payment to Propco on a £1 Million asset debt.

The shareholding of the club is pretty scattered and wide ranging.

All in all it's a bit of a dogs dinner. However, if the consortium buy out Propco and other shareholders, the assets of the club could easily be worth more than you paid for them, when they are all neatly packaged together. This is where they will make the money.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Bear with me Javeajag. This is my understanding of the set up, however I may be wrong.

Partick Thistle is pretty much debt free.

Propco own the Main Stand and the Bing, the club pay a rental/interest payment to Propco on a £1 Million asset debt.

The shareholding of the club is pretty scattered and wide ranging.

All in all it's a bit of a dogs dinner. However, if the consortium buy out Propco and other shareholders, the assets of the club could easily be worth more than you paid for them, when they are all neatly packaged together. This is where they will make the money.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes you are correct but atm the moment they will buy 52-55% of the shares but I still don’t get what the ‘packaging ‘ is and where the profit comes from. ? 

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10 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I think you need to stand back here .....

are you saying that serious long term investment is bad ?!

No. I'm saying that so far I can't think of an example where a rich foreign party with no prior connections has come in to Scottish football and enhanced the long term prospects of a club, whereas I can think of distasters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's impossible. I'm just saying that I can't think of any examples in the past.

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6 minutes ago, AndyMac said:

Bear with me Javeajag. This is my understanding of the set up, however I may be wrong.

Partick Thistle is pretty much debt free.

Propco own the Main Stand and the Bing, the club pay a rental/interest payment to Propco on a £1 Million asset debt.

The shareholding of the club is pretty scattered and wide ranging.

All in all it's a bit of a dogs dinner. However, if the consortium buy out Propco and other shareholders, the assets of the club could easily be worth more than you paid for them, when they are all neatly packaged together. This is where they will make the money.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly this is just fantasy. 

1 they couldn’t do it under company law

2 they have shown no appetite to do it at Barnsley 

3 you are ignoring the fact they are not buying entitlement to 100 per cent of an asset but actually only 55% 

4 you are also ignoring the fact that the club are a shareholder in propco 

 

 

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Just now, allyo said:

No. I'm saying that so far I can't think of an example where a rich foreign party with no prior connections has come in to Scottish football and enhanced the long term prospects of a club, whereas I can think of distasters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's impossible. I'm just saying that I can't think of any examples in the past.

Fergus McCann  

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We're obviously miles away from the stature of OGC Nice in the greater footballing world. 

Even Barnsley would have twice or thrice the turnover we had in the Premiership.

However, we have plenty of room for growth. I'd assume they would see us as a team that could gain top flight status and potentially challenge for cups and the top 6 with a relatively low investment. Player wise they could provide players from their portfolio of Barnsley and maybe even Nice on cross border temporary transfers.

This would/ could enhance their transfer value.

If successful a top flight Thistle would be seen as a bigger asset than where we currently sit.

Would there be investment in the infrastructure?

Would they look at alternative venues?

Another question is how would this fit in with the Weir's academy investment and proposed academy/training facility? Would Mr Weir be happy to work with them? 

Interesting times...

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