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Jag

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douglas clark

'Tis not the job of a moderator to stop people writing here. The rules are pretty simple:

reported ad hominem attacks will be investigated (and if found to be true) or write stuff that could get the site into trouble

and you'll either be warned / your post deleted, or - worst case scenario -  banned either temporarily or permanently.

This particular thread has had a vigorous exchange of views, and perhaps more heat than light. But the quality of the debate - it seems to me at least - is down to the lack of information.  That, in and of itself, means that whatever side you happen to be on is for a fan, very frustrating.

So, I have no intention of closing threads just because the quality of the postings isn't great. That is not the role of a moderator.

If you wake up the following morning you can always delete something you wish you'd never said.

 

 

 

 

 

Message added by douglas clark

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Colin Weir is/was a Rangers fan.

Duncan Smillie has a ‘box’ at Celtic Park (or did have last season).

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1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said:

How many of our players are Thistle fans ? 

How many of our fans are really Thistle fans?

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15 minutes ago, jaf said:

I don't think it needs Colin Weir's intervention, it is in the gift of the Board (and our supporters representatives) to vary the trust deed to protect us more.

Therefore, rather than blow hard on here, I have taken the step of writing to the club this morning on the matter.

Well done Jaf.  I will be contacting the club to get an address for the Jags Trust, I joined earlier this year, but who appear to be invisible.

I have been looking at the PTFC Trust's Deed.  There is no reason why fans cannot change this to wrest control from the Board.  

First, in clause 13.1 it states that the minimum number of trustees shall  be five, and that there shall be 3 appointed by the Board.

Second, clause 16.1 allows for any modification to be made to the Trust's Deed, with only a simple majority of trustees needed.

If I am reading the Deed correctly therefore (I am not a lawyer), a resolution passed at a Trust members meeting to increase the number of trustees to say seven, would give fans a control of the Trust if two more fans were appointed, and there are no board patsies among the present fans' trustees (easily fixed in about 3 years).  It would also then allow them to reduce the number of Board appointed trustees to a more sensible number while retainimg a link to the Board.

On this last subject, I met the PTFC Trustees at Firhill last season in the JH stand concourse, and had a subsequent exchange of emails with Pauline Graham the Trust's chair.  Despite asking for answers to questions of why there are no fans' appointed directors and the up to date shareholding in PTFC by each of the directors, no answer has been forthcoming.  Why Pauline?

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32 minutes ago, eljaggo said:

Well done Jaf.  I will be contacting the club to get an address for the Jags Trust, I joined earlier this year, but who appear to be invisible.

I have been looking at the PTFC Trust's Deed.  There is no reason why fans cannot change this to wrest control from the Board.  

First, in clause 13.1 it states that the minimum number of trustees shall  be five, and that there shall be 3 appointed by the Board.

Second, clause 16.1 allows for any modification to be made to the Trust's Deed, with only a simple majority of trustees needed.

If I am reading the Deed correctly therefore (I am not a lawyer), a resolution passed at a Trust members meeting to increase the number of trustees to say seven, would give fans a control of the Trust if two more fans were appointed, and there are no board patsies among the present fans' trustees (easily fixed in about 3 years).  It would also then allow them to reduce the number of Board appointed trustees to a more sensible number while retainimg a link to the Board.

On this last subject, I met the PTFC Trustees at Firhill last season in the JH stand concourse, and had a subsequent exchange of emails with Pauline Graham the Trust's chair.  Despite asking for answers to questions of why there are no fans' appointed directors and the up to date shareholding in PTFC by each of the directors, no answer has been forthcoming.  Why Pauline?

Keep up the good work on this, eljaggo. The state of the two Trusts is such a poor reflection on us as a supporter base, as is the seeming lack of interest in the absurd way in which the newer Trust appears to have been established as nothing more than a patsy to the club. At such a potentially momentous period for the club neither Trust is anywhere to be seen. 

Edited by KemoAvdiu

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29 minutes ago, eljaggo said:

Well done Jaf.  I will be contacting the club to get an address for the Jags Trust, I joined earlier this year, but who appear to be invisible.

I have been looking at the PTFC Trust's Deed.  There is no reason why fans cannot change this to wrest control from the Board.  

First, in clause 13.1 it states that the minimum number of trustees shall  be five, and that there shall be 3 appointed by the Board.

Second, clause 16.1 allows for any modification to be made to the Trust's Deed, with only a simple majority of trustees needed.

If I am reading the Deed correctly therefore (I am not a lawyer), a resolution passed at a Trust members meeting to increase the number of trustees to say seven, would give fans a control of the Trust if two more fans were appointed, and there are no board patsies among the present fans' trustees (easily fixed in about 3 years).  It would also then allow them to reduce the number of Board appointed trustees to a more sensible number while retainimg a link to the Board.

On this last subject, I met the PTFC Trustees at Firhill last season in the JH stand concourse, and had a subsequent exchange of emails with Pauline Graham the Trust's chair.  Despite asking for answers to questions of why there are no fans' appointed directors and the up to date shareholding in PTFC by each of the directors, no answer has been forthcoming.  Why Pauline?

I am also not a lawyer but agree with your assessment, which is similar to the substance of the email I sent.

Although, I would say with respect to Pauline I have emailed her twice on different topics, and had responses both times.

 

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9 hours ago, AndyMac said:

It's more than a bit odd, is it not?

Some may say that the Weir's own 30% of the club!

However, if we add together the Weir's, The Partick Thistle Football Club Trust  and the Jags Trust shares, all of whom (you would think) would be considered as bankers for supporting the status quo. This combined shareholding amounts to 37% of the total shares in the club.

If this is the case, the consortium has to buy 51% out of the remaining 63% of shares, which are scattered far and wide. This is a big ask. In these circumstances it is extremely difficult to see how they'll be able to buy the club.

Perhaps, it's the Weir's that are selling? if so, then it's a completely different ball game. Some might say, that the consortium would then only have to buy 21% out of the remaining 70% of shares to own our club.

Stranger things have happened.

 

 

I’m pretty sure Jim, Stuart etc had suggested the consortium had purchased the 51% - they still need to get the dual ownership thing approved though

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8 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I’m pretty sure Jim, Stuart etc had suggested the consortium had purchased the 51% - they still need to get the dual ownership thing approved though

The latest report from the daily mail was 55%.... add in the compliant supporters trust and they have 75%+ of shares and can then do as they please

one interesting question will be whether they want to buy out other shareholders 

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10 minutes ago, javeajag said:

The latest report from the daily mail was 55%.... add in the compliant supporters trust and they have 75%+ of shares and can then do as they please

one interesting question will be whether they want to buy out other shareholders 

They really don't need to if they reach 75% by this means - which is why addressing this is a key thing to protect the supporters.

That said, they did of course buy out the legacy 20% shareholder in Nice.

 

 

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Just now, jaf said:

They really don't need to if they reach 75% by this means - which is why addressing this is a key thing to protect the supporters.

That said, they did of course buy out the legacy 20% shareholder in Nice.

 

 

Indeed ..... which suggests they might here as well 

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Just now, Dick Dastardly said:

If they buy the supporters trust shares, who gets the money ?

I suspect you need to look at the trust deed for that to see if the trust can dissolve itself etc 

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1 hour ago, eljaggo said:

Well done Jaf.  I will be contacting the club to get an address for the Jags Trust, I joined earlier this year, but who appear to be invisible.

I have been looking at the PTFC Trust's Deed.  There is no reason why fans cannot change this to wrest control from the Board.  

First, in clause 13.1 it states that the minimum number of trustees shall  be five, and that there shall be 3 appointed by the Board.

Second, clause 16.1 allows for any modification to be made to the Trust's Deed, with only a simple majority of trustees needed.

If I am reading the Deed correctly therefore (I am not a lawyer), a resolution passed at a Trust members meeting to increase the number of trustees to say seven, would give fans a control of the Trust if two more fans were appointed, and there are no board patsies among the present fans' trustees (easily fixed in about 3 years).  It would also then allow them to reduce the number of Board appointed trustees to a more sensible number while retainimg a link to the Board.

On this last subject, I met the PTFC Trustees at Firhill last season in the JH stand concourse, and had a subsequent exchange of emails with Pauline Graham the Trust's chair.  Despite asking for answers to questions of why there are no fans' appointed directors and the up to date shareholding in PTFC by each of the directors, no answer has been forthcoming.  Why Pauline?

If you read the Variation deed, you will see that the minimum number of Trustees has already been varied to 6, not 5.

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A step in the right direction unless they have also been changed to increase the number of Board appointed trustees.

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1 minute ago, eljaggo said:

A step in the right direction unless they have also been changed to increase the number of Board appointed trustees.

No, its 3/3

But to protect us post-takeover, we need 4/3, or 3/2 in supporter trustees favour.

Or that the Chair has a casting vote and the Chair can only be a Supporter Trustee.

Lots of ways to skin the cat.

 

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10 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

how do you know if they did or they didn't 

How do I know that the press didn't state that? I read the story.

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May I comment in the midst of all this confusion? Hibernian have apparently sold out to an American, but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with our Chinese American.

US-based businessman Ron Gordon has taken control of Hibernian as the Edinburgh club changed hands for the first time in 28 years.

Looks like some weird takeover of Scottish Football by American billionaires, they are ten a penny I tell ya!

 

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Buying Hibs makes sense, there's money to be made there and room to grow. Why anyone would want to buy a club who doesn't even fully own their dilapidated, crumbling stadium, overshadowed in a city dominated by two huge clubs with a fanbase dipping below two thousand, is beyond me.

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1 hour ago, javeajag said:

The latest report from the daily mail was 55%.... add in the compliant supporters trust and they have 75%+ of shares and can then do as they please

one interesting question will be whether they want to buy out other shareholders 

I would rather they didn’t have 75%  as pretty sure you need 75% to officially close a company.  If they have 75% then they could do that anytime they please if things didn’t work out for them 

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9 minutes ago, West of Scotland said:

Buying Hibs makes sense, there's money to be made there and room to grow. Why anyone would want to buy a club who doesn't even fully own their dilapidated, crumbling stadium, overshadowed in a city dominated by two huge clubs with a fanbase dipping below two thousand, is beyond me.

The guy who has bought Hibs is a Hibernian supporter.

wouldnt say the home crowds have dipped below 2000, mostly 2.5 to 3000 not that that is a particularly big fanbase but

Edited by Third Lanark

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2 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I would rather they didn’t have 75%  as pretty sure you need 75% to officially close a company.  If they have 75% then they could do that anytime they please if things didn’t work out for them 

Precisely - that is why sorting the trust so it is in control of the fans rather than deadlocked between board and fans is so critical

That would give fans the protection between the two trusts of having in excess of 25%

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, scotty said:

Surely a lot of this is wishful thinking?

No

5 hours ago, scotty said:

Do you know these things or are you just, like many of the posters on  this thread putting forward your tuppence worth?

I am just speculating. What are you doing?

Pot, kettle, black.

 

5 hours ago, scotty said:

Have you even taken into consideration that Colin Weir is not in the best of health and that he and his wife have been reported to have separated?

 

Yes, that's why I think they may be selling the club.

 

5 hours ago, scotty said:

A thread which is so full of conjecture, egotistcal one upmanship, guesswork and malicious rumourmongering cannot be good for the health of the club.

Which respect, you're talking nonsense. It's the people running our club that are overwhelmingly responsible for it's health.

What is wrong with people expressing their opinions on a forum? That's what it's there for.

Why do you want to shut down debate?

 

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Colin Weir is a bit of a hero to me. I hope he recovers from whatever ails him.

If I won the lottery, I wish I could be as decent a human being as he is. There are roads that lottery winners go down, and his  has been an impressive example of what a genuine person does with their fortune.

We are lucky to have him.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I would rather they didn’t have 75%  as pretty sure you need 75% to officially close a company.  If they have 75% then they could do that anytime they please if things didn’t work out for them 

Correct 

but the supporters trust as has been stated becomes key 

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