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douglas clark

'Tis not the job of a moderator to stop people writing here. The rules are pretty simple:

reported ad hominem attacks will be investigated (and if found to be true) or write stuff that could get the site into trouble

and you'll either be warned / your post deleted, or - worst case scenario -  banned either temporarily or permanently.

This particular thread has had a vigorous exchange of views, and perhaps more heat than light. But the quality of the debate - it seems to me at least - is down to the lack of information.  That, in and of itself, means that whatever side you happen to be on is for a fan, very frustrating.

So, I have no intention of closing threads just because the quality of the postings isn't great. That is not the role of a moderator.

If you wake up the following morning you can always delete something you wish you'd never said.

 

 

 

 

 

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Trust update 

 

PTFC Trust Update - 15th July 2019

Dear Fellow Supporters,

Like everyone else, we have been keeping a close eye on recent announcements and developments at the Club - notably changes in the boardroom and confirmation via the Club statement (11 July 19) that a formal approach has been made regarding a potential transfer of shares to an interested consortium. 
We also acknowledge the comprehensive statement issued by the Board of The Jags Trust regarding its position around their decision to support the Club Board changes.

For clarity, the PTFC Trust was not approached in the run up to the recent developments at our Club and, whilst disappointed, we fully understand why. The current structure and governance of PTFC Trust allows for 3 club-appointed trustees which included members of the Club Board of Directors (in addition to 6 supporter trustees), and we accept that this made it inappropriate for those Club shareholders - acting together to effect change - to approach the PTFC Trust.
That said, and acting swiftly on the Club statements, 4 supporter trustees of the PTFC Trust were pleased that newly appointed Chairman, David Beattie, welcomed an early meeting.  We met on Friday, 12 July and at the meeting the Chairman firstly outlined the reasoning by a significant group of shareholders to force board level changes and their collective concerns regarding the direction of the Club. This was consistent with the official Club Statement that ‘Existing investors had raised concerns about the direction of the club therefore the Board are in active dialogue with potential new investors to fully understand their interest and to establish if that could support the growth and long-term sustainability of the club’. We were informed that the potential new investors have a good track record in sport and are keen to develop their portfolio further.

We then discussed the way forward in terms of discussions with potential new investors, the initial discussions which had taken place, and the aims and motivations of the interested investors. The information we received on the investors, their motivation and track record, is fairly consistent with the information provided via The Jags Trust Board statement document. Yes, we feel more informed but, understandably, we remain cautious about what any transfer of shares and any new investors could mean for the long term future of Partick Thistle.

Finally, we discussed the role of the PTFC Trust where we stressed the need to ensure that supporters are a) consulted properly during this, and any period of significant change and b) suitably represented at the appropriate levels of decision making in our Club.  The Chairman was open to what this means in practice and we look forward to future discussion on this.

Given these recent developments at our Club and naturally some uncertainty about how things might unfold over the coming weeks and months, we feel that the time is right to consult with supporters and the Club about strengthening the role and influence of the PTFC Trust and the supporters’ voice as a whole. We agree wholeheartedly with the Jags Trust that a strong collective supporter voice is paramount and we will continue to reach out to the Jags Trust to work collaboratively in the best interest of supporters. They seem up for that, we have proposed a meeting with them and eagerly anticipate their confirmation on this.

We would also like to take this opportunity to clarify that the statement issued by the supporter trustees of the PTFC Trust (5 July 19) was solely in response to some inaccurate conjecture that the PTFC Trust shares were in any manner ‘at risk’.  Our shareholding via the PTFC Trust belongs to the supporters and it is significant (19.28%) - so we want to ensure that the Trust’s structure and objectives are ‘fit for purpose’ and that is has the influence it merits vis a vis its shareholding. The next phase of the Trust needs to see it evolve - with a critical mass of supporters feeling greater ownership and guiding the Trust’s affairs. This will genuinely reflect the importance of its shareholding in the Club and we hope that supporters will welcome a discussion on this. 
Similar to The Jags Trust, as outlined in their statement, the PTFC Trust’s shares are not part of any proposed transfer of shares and our only interest in this matter is how it will impact on our Club and it is fair to say that we are cautiously optimistic about the future direction of the Club. We do, however, understand that there remains a significant distance to travel, and that there remain unanswered questions about what might come next. We will seek to fully represent the concerns and views of the supporter base and provide you with information as and when we can.

As always, we would like to state that we represent you the supporters and that we are contactable via e-mail ([email protected]), Twitter and Facebook.

We acknowledge that recent developments at the Club are at times a distraction from football affairs, so let’s not lose sight of getting right behind the manager and the players as the new season begins.

#WeAreThistle

Supporter Trustees of PTFC Trust

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Ok reading the two statements from both Trusts I’m taking away that the the shareholders are minded to accept the takeover - the comments from Beattie are essentially positive on them and if they were against it we would see a more negative response. As ever the devil will be in the detail but we should be preparing for change.

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15 hours ago, One t in Scotland said:

Maybe the case in the 50s /60s but I think that tag has long since lost any meaning. I can barely think of a match over the last decade where we defied the odds and won.

We defy the odds and lose all the time though!

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1 hour ago, javeajag said:

 

Trust update 

 

PTFC Trust Update - 15th July 2019

Dear Fellow Supporters,

Like everyone else, we have been keeping a close eye on recent announcements and developments at the Club - notably changes in the boardroom and confirmation via the Club statement (11 July 19) that a formal approach has been made regarding a potential transfer of shares to an interested consortium. 
We also acknowledge the comprehensive statement issued by the Board of The Jags Trust regarding its position around their decision to support the Club Board changes.

For clarity, the PTFC Trust was not approached in the run up to the recent developments at our Club and, whilst disappointed, we fully understand why. The current structure and governance of PTFC Trust allows for 3 club-appointed trustees which included members of the Club Board of Directors (in addition to 6 supporter trustees), and we accept that this made it inappropriate for those Club shareholders - acting together to effect change - to approach the PTFC Trust.
That said, and acting swiftly on the Club statements, 4 supporter trustees of the PTFC Trust were pleased that newly appointed Chairman, David Beattie, welcomed an early meeting.  We met on Friday, 12 July and at the meeting the Chairman firstly outlined the reasoning by a significant group of shareholders to force board level changes and their collective concerns regarding the direction of the Club. This was consistent with the official Club Statement that ‘Existing investors had raised concerns about the direction of the club therefore the Board are in active dialogue with potential new investors to fully understand their interest and to establish if that could support the growth and long-term sustainability of the club’. We were informed that the potential new investors have a good track record in sport and are keen to develop their portfolio further.

We then discussed the way forward in terms of discussions with potential new investors, the initial discussions which had taken place, and the aims and motivations of the interested investors. The information we received on the investors, their motivation and track record, is fairly consistent with the information provided via The Jags Trust Board statement document. Yes, we feel more informed but, understandably, we remain cautious about what any transfer of shares and any new investors could mean for the long term future of Partick Thistle.

Finally, we discussed the role of the PTFC Trust where we stressed the need to ensure that supporters are a) consulted properly during this, and any period of significant change and b) suitably represented at the appropriate levels of decision making in our Club.  The Chairman was open to what this means in practice and we look forward to future discussion on this.

Given these recent developments at our Club and naturally some uncertainty about how things might unfold over the coming weeks and months, we feel that the time is right to consult with supporters and the Club about strengthening the role and influence of the PTFC Trust and the supporters’ voice as a whole. We agree wholeheartedly with the Jags Trust that a strong collective supporter voice is paramount and we will continue to reach out to the Jags Trust to work collaboratively in the best interest of supporters. They seem up for that, we have proposed a meeting with them and eagerly anticipate their confirmation on this.

We would also like to take this opportunity to clarify that the statement issued by the supporter trustees of the PTFC Trust (5 July 19) was solely in response to some inaccurate conjecture that the PTFC Trust shares were in any manner ‘at risk’.  Our shareholding via the PTFC Trust belongs to the supporters and it is significant (19.28%) - so we want to ensure that the Trust’s structure and objectives are ‘fit for purpose’ and that is has the influence it merits vis a vis its shareholding. The next phase of the Trust needs to see it evolve - with a critical mass of supporters feeling greater ownership and guiding the Trust’s affairs. This will genuinely reflect the importance of its shareholding in the Club and we hope that supporters will welcome a discussion on this. 
Similar to The Jags Trust, as outlined in their statement, the PTFC Trust’s shares are not part of any proposed transfer of shares and our only interest in this matter is how it will impact on our Club and it is fair to say that we are cautiously optimistic about the future direction of the Club. We do, however, understand that there remains a significant distance to travel, and that there remain unanswered questions about what might come next. We will seek to fully represent the concerns and views of the supporter base and provide you with information as and when we can.

As always, we would like to state that we represent you the supporters and that we are contactable via e-mail ([email protected]), Twitter and Facebook.

We acknowledge that recent developments at the Club are at times a distraction from football affairs, so let’s not lose sight of getting right behind the manager and the players as the new season begins.

#WeAreThistle

Supporter Trustees of PTFC Trust

That’s an excellent statement. Good to see.

Edited by KemoAvdiu

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17 hours ago, One t in Scotland said:

Maybe the case in the 50s /60s but I think that tag has long since lost any meaning. I can barely think of a match over the last decade where we defied the odds and won.

 

14 hours ago, allyo said:

Alloa just there at the end of the season?

I'd also add the performance and result at QoS was out of the blue. 

 

On 7/13/2019 at 11:24 AM, Auld Jag said:

I have supported Thistle long enough to know the only predictable thing about us is our unpredictably.

For me we are still as unpredictable as ever

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What a superb statement by the Trust.

We might have the trust we all want and deserve. To ensure this, it is the responsibility of us all to continue to engage.

 

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41 minutes ago, jaf said:

What a superb statement by the Trust.

We might have the trust we all want and deserve. To ensure this, it is the responsibility of us all to continue to engage.

 

Well said. Clear concise and seems open and honest.

Forgive my lack of knowledge in such matters, but.......ive been reading posts about the two trusts over the past few years and although I understand the purpose I still don't understand why there are two bodies representing the fans. Personally I've never had spare cash to ever buy PTFC shares, it's great to read on here that some contributors do .

Can anyone direct me to a site or web page that explains why we have 2 trusts and how they came about. I used to think one was created during Save the jags and was the other created by the Weirs? Appreciate any guidance.

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1 hour ago, Thistleberight said:

Well said. Clear concise and seems open and honest.

Forgive my lack of knowledge in such matters, but.......ive been reading posts about the two trusts over the past few years and although I understand the purpose I still don't understand why there are two bodies representing the fans. Personally I've never had spare cash to ever buy PTFC shares, it's great to read on here that some contributors do .

Can anyone direct me to a site or web page that explains why we have 2 trusts and how they came about. I used to think one was created during Save the jags and was the other created by the Weirs? Appreciate any guidance.

Regarding the two supporters associations, and reason why there are two, is something that needs to be answered by representative of the actual trusts. I have asked this question more than once, I am not alone in asking that question. The second question after asking why there is two associations …. is why cant they amalgamate?

Hope fully the take-over will concentrate the minds a bit, and we end up with one supporters trust to use as our main means of communication with the BoD, and one association to engage with and interact for the benefit of the club. 

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The Jags trust was started after the save the jags campaign?? and their votes are solely held by supporters??

 

The PTFC trust isnt that something gifted by Mr Weir to include fan representation on the board? 

 

If someone could explain this to me like im 5 years old would be great thanks very much :D

Edited by dougie247

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Yep, sounds like there are a few of us who'd like to understand the whole trusts thing a bit better

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so one trust has what 7% and the other 19%? why not just merge them both and have more influence? The jags trust has been dead since forever!

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The Jags Trust/Partick Thistle Supporters Association was set-up for the express purpose of holding a significant shareholding after Save the Jags. The purpose was to disperse shareholder influence and to give the fans a vehicle through which to have a say in how the club was run. It used to elect a board representative who would then be appointed to the Club’s Board and the idea was that they would then be the go-between for the fans and the Club itself. It always had a bit of a reputation for being a bit cliquey: the North West bus was widely known to run a bit of a “slate” and most years it returned the same group of people to key positions like Club Board Rep, Treasurer, Secretary etc.

The Club’s (then) major shareholders and directors got a bit pissy about the Jags Trust because it was (seen not to be) mobilising revenue streams to the club’s direct benefit.

That Trust had been running a quite effective new fundraising campaign but wanted to use the money generated from it to buy more shares in the club on an incremental basis. There was a big fight about whether to merge its fundraiser with the club’s new Centenary Fund, which eventually happened but led to the resignation of several very active Trust board members in what must have been about 2009? To this day I still don’t know whether the Jags Trust has received more shares to reflect the legacy contributions of 1876 Club members in the Centenary Fund. 

In about 2010 and after a Trust Board Rep stepped down, a new one was elected and the Club then refused to let the new rep join the Board. After some attempts to mediate the disagreement (the precise reasons were never set out in black and white by the club) a few further Trust board members lost patience with the whole thing. It then continued to operate as a bit of a moribund organisation with some minor and mostly inconsequential fundraising attempts, an abomination of a website, and no influence over anything.

Until their slightly rambly Google document earlier last week I couldn’t have told you what they’d done in the last 7 or so years.

 

The PTFC Trust is a completely different organisation that was set up around the time that the Weirs started ploughing money into the Club to help it clear its bank debts. The idea was, in theory, to give a new vehicle for fan engagement and influence (it was also given a non trivial shareholding).

However there was the perception at the time that it was chosen as a vehicle in part further to marginalise the existing Jags Trust, and its constitutional arrangements (though I’ve not examined them closely) appeared at one stage at least to give rather more influence to the Club than to the fans. It has never had a direct board rep on the Club board, I think even had de facto Club reps on its own (though I may be wrong about that) and asides organising a couple of meet the manager nights hasn’t been what you would call particularly “visible”. However having moved away from Glasgow about two years ago I may be slightly unfair on them as they may well be active and visible at games now in ways they weren’t when I left.

 

I’m not convinced that either body gives the fan a say, or that if they worked together or merged they would have a say anyway. There was perhaps once a window for a functioning and effective and autonomous fans Trust but the boat was missed as soon as the JagsTrust had its deal about having a Board Member welched on.

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Thanks for that detailed explanation. Much appreciated. To have two trusts whatever the background is nonsensical. The reality is that without direct representation on the board the influence is minimal it appears. Considering the size of the shareholding held by the trusts it's incredible that there is essentially no real power. 

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2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

In about 2010 and after a Trust Board Rep stepped down, a new one was elected and the Club then refused to let the new rep join the Board. After some attempts to mediate the disagreement (the precise reasons were never set out in black and white by the club) a few further Trust board members lost patience with the whole thing.

Who ran the club at that time, WJ? 

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11 minutes ago, Dark Passenger said:

Who ran the club at that time, WJ? 

My memory is hazy on the timelines, but I’m fairly certain that around that time the Club Board included Alan Cowan, Tom Hughes, Ronnie Gilfillan, Grant Bannerman, David Beattie,  Billy Allan and Eddie Prentice.

I think Alan Cowan, Tom Hughes and Eddie Prentice left shortly thereafter and Jim Alexander joined the board later that year. Prentice made a pig’s ear of the Centenary Fund IIRC.

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A reminder of the breakdown of Propco, which owns/controls the Main Stand and Bing:

The Club: 100 A Shares

David Beattie: 100 A shares

Billy Allan’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Alan Lobban’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Ian Dodd’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Gavin Stewart: 50 A shares

Tom Hughes: 10 A shares

Eddie Prentice: 10 A shares

John McDougall: 10 A shares

Callum Stewart: 8 A shares

Gavin Taylor: 4 A shares

Lord Smith: 4 A shares

With the exception of the club, which also owns 300 B shares, all of the above shareholders also own preference shares, which (from what I can best recall) give the holders priority return on investment before the Club gets its share of the proceeds following the realisation of PropCo’s asset.

It’s worth noting that 200 of the 596 voting shares in PropCo are owned or controlled by current Board Members (David Beattie and Ian’s Dodd), and a further 100 are owned by a direct business associate who brought one of those Board Members into the fold (Billy Allan).

Put another way: the ducks are aligned in a row for the sale not just of shares in the Club, but for shares capable of controlling PropCo too.

Whatever you think of the new “consortium” and what it has planned for our Club, just please bear in mind that this looks, on paper, like the culmination of a project.

Moreover a project that some investors literally referred to at the time as a retirement project (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12502823.wealthy-jaggies-inject-1m-to-cut-partick-thistle-debt/) for a bunch of guys who are now in their 60s and 70s, who essentially bought shares in a piece of land about a decade ago and had hoped to sell it rather sooner.

I mean this as no ill will to those potentially selling up. But when you combine them with Norman Springford and Ronnie Gilfillan, both of whom are no spring chickens, this looks a lot like a collective exit strategy.

Now perhaps they’re doing this because they can’t find younger, sufficiently affluent, Thistle businessmen to put their money where their mouths are. And after putting money into a club they’re entitled in their later years to decide that their pensioned years should be free from commitments.

But if anyone seriously thinks this sale is being done for altruistic or primarily for pro Thistle reasons I have a bridge to the moon to sell you.

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2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

A reminder of the breakdown of Propco, which owns/controls the Main Stand and Bing:

The Club: 100 A Shares

David Beattie: 100 A shares

Billy Allan’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Alan Lobban’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Ian Dodd’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Gavin Stewart: 50 A shares

Tom Hughes: 10 A shares

Eddie Prentice: 10 A shares

John McDougall: 10 A shares

Callum Stewart: 8 A shares

Gavin Taylor: 4 A shares

Lord Smith: 4 A shares

With the exception of the club, which also owns 300 B shares, all of the above shareholders also own preference shares, which (from what I can best recall) give the holders priority return on investment before the Club gets its share of the proceeds following the realisation of PropCo’s asset.

It’s worth noting that 200 of the 596 voting shares in PropCo are owned or controlled by current Board Members (David Beattie and Ian’s Dodd), and a further 100 are owned by a direct business associate who brought one of those Board Members into the fold (Billy Allan).

Put another way: the ducks are aligned in a row for the sale not just of shares in the Club, but for shares capable of controlling PropCo too.

Whatever you think of the new “consortium” and what it has planned for our Club, just please bear in mind that this looks, on paper, like the culmination of a project.

Moreover a project that some investors literally referred to at the time as a retirement project (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12502823.wealthy-jaggies-inject-1m-to-cut-partick-thistle-debt/) for a bunch of guys who are now in their 60s and 70s, who essentially bought shares in a piece of land about a decade ago and had hoped to sell it rather sooner.

I mean this as no ill will to those potentially selling up. But when you combine them with Norman Springford and Ronnie Gilfillan, both of whom are no spring chickens, this looks a lot like a collective exit strategy.

Now perhaps they’re doing this because they can’t find younger, sufficiently affluent, Thistle businessmen to put their money where their mouths are. And after putting money into a club they’re entitled in their later years to decide that their pensioned years should be free from commitments.

But if anyone seriously thinks this sale is being done for altruistic or primarily for pro Thistle reasons I have a bridge to the moon to sell you.

Nailed it 

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5 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

A reminder of the breakdown of Propco, which owns/controls the Main Stand and Bing:

The Club: 100 A Shares

David Beattie: 100 A shares

Billy Allan’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Alan Lobban’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Ian Dodd’s pension fund: 100 A shares

Gavin Stewart: 50 A shares

Tom Hughes: 10 A shares

Eddie Prentice: 10 A shares

John McDougall: 10 A shares

Callum Stewart: 8 A shares

Gavin Taylor: 4 A shares

Lord Smith: 4 A shares

With the exception of the club, which also owns 300 B shares, all of the above shareholders also own preference shares, which (from what I can best recall) give the holders priority return on investment before the Club gets its share of the proceeds following the realisation of PropCo’s asset.

It’s worth noting that 200 of the 596 voting shares in PropCo are owned or controlled by current Board Members (David Beattie and Ian’s Dodd), and a further 100 are owned by a direct business associate who brought one of those Board Members into the fold (Billy Allan).

Put another way: the ducks are aligned in a row for the sale not just of shares in the Club, but for shares capable of controlling PropCo too.

Whatever you think of the new “consortium” and what it has planned for our Club, just please bear in mind that this looks, on paper, like the culmination of a project.

Moreover a project that some investors literally referred to at the time as a retirement project (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12502823.wealthy-jaggies-inject-1m-to-cut-partick-thistle-debt/) for a bunch of guys who are now in their 60s and 70s, who essentially bought shares in a piece of land about a decade ago and had hoped to sell it rather sooner.

I mean this as no ill will to those potentially selling up. But when you combine them with Norman Springford and Ronnie Gilfillan, both of whom are no spring chickens, this looks a lot like a collective exit strategy.

Now perhaps they’re doing this because they can’t find younger, sufficiently affluent, Thistle businessmen to put their money where their mouths are. And after putting money into a club they’re entitled in their later years to decide that their pensioned years should be free from commitments.

But if anyone seriously thinks this sale is being done for altruistic or primarily for pro Thistle reasons I have a bridge to the moon to sell you.

Sure but it also doesn’t mean it’s the wrong thing to do 

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29 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Sure but it also doesn’t mean it’s the wrong thing to do 

That's true, but it would be enough to make me concerned about how it could all turn out. Not you?

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Woodstock Jag's post is an excellent summary of where we are with our current shareholders, although I'm not sure that their motivation to sell, while not altruistic, might not also be compatible with being 'pro Thistle'. It really all depends on what this consortium is planning to do with the club.

I'm not aware of any investors willing to put significant money into the club over the past ten years (or any time before that to be honest). The Weir's money has largely been to support youth development while providing some financial stability for the club as a whole. There's never been a suggestion that they wished to be owners 

When we made the top six there was a feeling that maybe we could finally become a club with a consistent place at the top of Scottish football, competing with the top teams, going on cup runs, maybe even winning one of them occasionally. (For the much older fans amongst us, this used to be called 'the status quo'.) What's happened since then has been a crushing disappointment. We've been reminded just how fragile our position is. I don't know about anyone else, but the prospect of struggling to get out of the Championship for the next couple of seasons followed by yo-yoing between the two top divisions thereafter, doesn't seem that enticing.

(Folk keep saying we should be building for the future. I'm in my mid sixties. Can we put together a winning team soon? Tempus fugit and all that.)

The defining issue facing us at the moment is not what the current shareholders motivations are, it's what our potential new owners plans are. Until we get some clarity on that, it's all just hot air.

Edited by Firhillista
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7 minutes ago, allyo said:

That's true, but it would be enough to make me concerned about how it could all turn out. Not you?

Of course.

But the kimono has been opened to some extent to the two Trusts now, and both seem to have independently concluded that this prospect is better option than the status quo (whilst still properly being cautious).

On the basis, they know more than we do, I am content to leave that evaluation to those supporters representatives rather than down to pure conjecture.

 

 

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