Fears of change Vs apathy to current set up

[Norgethistle]

People seem keen to compare our board to a hypothetical board. But how much do we really know about our board. 

Let’s start with our chairman, whose last accounts for the year ended December 2018 show that liabilities exceed assets at that date, and a going concern statement promises everything will be better next year (after a sustained period of erosion of net assets). A balance sheet where liabilities exceed assets means after all money due I gathered in there is insufficient money to pay out to everyone who is due money. 

She is not alone. 

Michael Robertson has a company which was the victim of a compulsory striking off (presumably for some aspect of non compliance with companies house). The last accounts filed for that company however also show an excess of liabilities over assets. 

Why are so many convinced these people are so well qualified to run the company that is Partick Thistle when they evidently struggle to run their own companies?

We have many supporter who have their own businesses with either positive net assets or a record of complying with filing deadlines - why do some believe this board are so much better qualified than our own supporters?

Would shareholders not be entitled to be concerned by these traits in their directors?
 

[jaf]

Chairs company has lost value each and every year since 2013. Or more has been spent than has been brought in. 

There are rumours and redundancies suggesting there is a 100 per cent record of this at partick thistle too. Under her chairmanship ie last year  

Amd we have just let the guy who controlled finances go. 

The idolisation of our current chair by some on here is staggering  

sustained period of spending more than has been brought in   Let that sink in  sometimes status quo can be fearful too  

 

 

[Auld Jag]

6 minutes ago, jaf said:

Chairs company has lost value each and every year since 2013. Or more has been spent than has been brought in. 

There are rumours and redundancies suggesting there is a 100 per cent record of this at partick thistle too. Under her chairmanship ie last year  

Amd we have just let the guy who controlled finances go. 

The idolisation of our current chair by some on here is staggering  

sustained period of spending more than has been brought in   Let that sink in  sometimes status quo can be fearful too  

 

 

Status Quo, fearful. They did well with limited talent.

[allyo]

"The idolisation of our current chair by some on here is staggering"...

Are you serious? She seems to get nothing but a constant slagging?

What is being presented here is not positive, and I may be guilty of apathy over the current set up. But I don't fear change.

I just think Thistle fans are right to question the nature of any change, and question whether it would be good for the long term future of the club. That has virtually nothing with our current chairman's company accounts, and I don't see why this debate should be "current board versus new (rumoured) board".

If people want to challenge the current set-up then go for it, it probably needs done. But it should be separate from the takeover debate.

[jaf]

48 minutes ago, allyo said:

"The idolisation of our current chair by some on here is staggering"...

Are you serious? She seems to get nothing but a constant slagging?

What is being presented here is not positive, and I may be guilty of apathy over the current set up. But I don't fear change.

I just think Thistle fans are right to question the nature of any change, and question whether it would be good for the long term future of the club. That has virtually nothing with our current chairman's company accounts, and I don't see why this debate should be "current board versus new (rumoured) board".

If people want to challenge the current set-up then go for it, it probably needs done. But it should be separate from the takeover debate.

“Some”

this is nothing to do with a takeover debate. Norge has posted something unrelated to takeover, purely about the business competencies of multiple board members. Inconvenient but true. 

Facts are the inconvenient enemy of pr bullshit  

perhaps you think having a chairman whose own business is on a 6 year continual cycle of deterioration and negative cash flow is the sort of person who ought to lead our club though?  

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by jaf

[allyo]

1 hour ago, jaf said:

“Some”

this is nothing to do with a takeover debate. Norge has posted something unrelated to takeover, purely about the business competencies of multiple board members. Inconvenient but true. 

Facts are the inconvenient enemy of pr bullshit  

perhaps you think having a chairman whose own business is on a 6 year continual cycle of deterioration and negative cash flow is the sort of person who ought to lead our club though?  

 

 

Erm....

No. I don't think I said anything like that. In fact I'm very happy to see a thread which would allows the current set-up to be debated separately from the takeover thread.

I'd actually written as much, and then deleted it coz I didn't want to come across as the kind of r-sole who tells people what they can and can't discuss under any particular thread. Looks like I failed.

In my defence (and I'm not really into defending myself), the "fear of change" aspect of the thread title doesn't suggest that it's completely unrelated to the takeover, but it's not for me to define what Norge wanted us to cover under his thread.

Edited June 28, 2019 by allyo

[jlsarmy]

51 minutes ago, allyo said:

Erm....

No. I don't think I said anything like that. In fact I'm very happy to see a thread which would allows the current set-up to be debated separately from the takeover thread.

I'd actually written as much, and then deleted it coz I didn't want to come across as the kind of r-sole who tells people what they can and can't discuss under any particular thread. Looks like I failed.

In my defence (and I'm not really into defending myself), the "fear of change" aspect of the thread title doesn't suggest that it's completely unrelated to the takeover, but it's not for me to define what Norge wanted us to cover under his thread.

As regards the present incumbents running the Club and I include the manager in this as well ,the big thing for me is the lack of vision and where  they see Partick Thistle just now or where we are going to be in 10 yrs time .

They all say the right things about the Academy and the new Training Ground, the reality is somewhat different, no Training Ground in the near future and only playing at being an Academy with no real plan how we provide a platform or pathway to get young players to first team level .

Gary Caldwell I believe has been given no remit as to what direction we should be going in and we were told at the Meet the Manager night , the manager is in charge of first team decisions , no explanation in what direction we’re trying to go in , whether we’re trying to build a sustainable model like Hamilton or Motherwell do with the emphasis on coaching or promoting youth .

We seem to be going down the short term route ,hoping to get lucky with the signings of Cardle , Harkins and Kenny Miller to try and get us promoted, I’m not so sure as a strategy that is going to work even if we did manage to get promoted, hence we become a yo-yo Club flirting between the top 2 divisions .

Criticism is getting levelled at Jacqui Lowe and Gerry Britton not really because of the finances of the Club which we knew was going to happen after relegation, more to do with their lack of vision or what they see our future to be and that’s when we need a strong Chairwoman.

Edited June 28, 2019 by jlsarmy

[Jordanhill Jag]

First - I think most people in Business Know its tough out there - so Im sympathetic to any Business thats making a loss etc - puts a lot of pressure on the owners 

But if your Running a Business that has lost Money - couple of things - surely that should be your Focus ?  Small Football Clubs are time consuming  ? 

Plus small Football Clubs are very difficult to manage financially - it takes a lot of skill and experience of managing  budgets- and running what I can only describe as an Austerity Type Budget regards Non Football Matters - if your going to break even 

Last Year we got the Parachute & EUFA Money  ( £850K ) - this Year bit of Parachute & some Liam Lindsay Money - but these are one offs - unplanned so to speak - my concern is underlying trends on things like Crowd Numbers -and  big Cash Generators 

It was noticeable that the End of Season Ball which used to be a sell out and was  Major Fundraiser - circa £70K Clear Profit - was merged with the Player of the Year Dinner 

Now BOTH of these used to sell out   - the End of Season Ball sold out even when we were previously in the Championship - so that tells us something 

Therefore my concern is that there seems to be signs of a downward trend in revenue generators eg Bums on Seats - Large Events - could be wrong - just looking and comparing 

Therefore we really do need people with the experience and contacts that can generate revenue - one other point - in the past if cash was tight Directors Chipped in with a Directors Fee - you need people on your Board that can afford to do that - ignoring the rights & wrongs - small Clubs can run into cashflow issues - bad fixture list - bad Weather- even getting  revenue forecasts wrong  - and sometimes that means short term funding  

Its ok to manage in the Premier with decent cash input - managing budgets in the Championship is a different beast - and apart from Ian Dodds we have no one with that experience 

For me in a Small Football Club its always about the Money - balancing budgets is key  !!  

 

 

 

[Third Lanark]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

As regards the present incumbents running the Club and I include the manager in this as well ,the big thing for me is the lack of vision and where  they see Partick Thistle just now or where we are going to be in 10 yrs time .

They all say the right things about the Academy and the new Training Ground, the reality is somewhat different, no Training Ground in the near future and only playing at being an Academy with no real plan how we provide a platform or pathway to get young players to first team level .

Gary Caldwell I believe has been given no remit as to what direction we should be going in and we were told at the Meet the Manager night , the manager is in charge of first team decisions , no explanation in what direction we’re trying to go in , whether we’re trying to build a sustainable model like Hamilton or Motherwell do with the emphasis on coaching or promoting youth .

We seem to be going down the short term route ,hoping to get lucky with the signings of Cardle , Harkins and Kenny Miller to try and get us promoted, I’m not so sure as a strategy that is going to work even if we did manage to get promoted, hence we become a yo-yo Club flirting between the top 2 divisions .

Criticism is getting levelled at Jacqui Lowe and Gerry Britton not really because of the finances of the Club which we knew was going to happen after relegation, more to do with their lack of vision or what they see our future to be and that’s when we need a strong Chairwoman.

Caldwell does have a vision which is promotion and to be established in the premier league again. 

You highlighted older signings but they are just there to help bring along the younger players (I don’t see why Harkins was signed though). Robson Williams Gordon Mansell etc are all young players with lots of potential, they play to their capabilities and they could make the club a lot of money, he has made young Jamie sneddon the permanent number 1,  brought in 3 development players. Kenny Miller is obviously signed to help fulfill the McDonald type scenario. Cardle was signed because he can score goals and is a big player to have in the dressing room and you seem pleased about his signing as well. 

[jlsarmy]

6 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

First - I think most people in Business Know its tough out there - so Im sympathetic to any Business thats making a loss etc - puts a lot of pressure on the owners 

But if your Running a Business that has lost Money - couple of things - surely that should be your Focus ?  Small Football Clubs are time consuming  ? 

Plus small Football Clubs are very difficult to manage financially - it takes a lot of skill and experience of managing  budgets- and running what I can only describe as an Austerity Type Budget regards Non Football Matters - if your going to break even 

Last Year we got the Parachute & EUFA Money  ( £850K ) - this Year bit of Parachute & some Liam Lindsay Money - but these are one offs - unplanned so to speak - my concern is underlying trends on things like Crowd Numbers -and  big Cash Generators 

It was noticeable that the End of Season Ball which used to be a sell out and was  Major Fundraiser - circa £70K Clear Profit - was merged with the Player of the Year Dinner 

Now BOTH of these used to sell out   - the End of Season Ball sold out even when we were previously in the Championship - so that tells us something 

Therefore my concern is that there seems to be signs of a downward trend in revenue generators eg Bums on Seats - Large Events - could be wrong - just looking and comparing 

Therefore we really do need people with the experience and contacts that can generate revenue - one other point - in the past if cash was tight Directors Chipped in with a Directors Fee - you need people on your Board that can afford to do that - ignoring the rights & wrongs - small Clubs can run into cashflow issues - bad fixture list - bad Weather- even getting  revenue forecasts wrong  - and sometimes that means short term funding  

Its ok to manage in the Premier with decent cash input - managing budgets in the Championship is a different beast - and apart from Ian Dodds we have no one with that experience 

For me in a Small Football Club its always about the Money - balancing budgets is key  !!  

 

 

 

The Club keep on shooting themselves in the foot re revenue, most recent example being sponsorship, last year there was a personal email from Ross Quaile asking if you wanted to responsor last years player etc  this year a generic email from Gerry Britton regarding sponsorship.

I believe we are a Community Club and more people or supporters would come on board  if there was more connections between the Club and fans . The callous way that Doolans  departure from the club after 10 yrs and also in his testimonial year also left a bad taste in people’s mouths and I personally made a decision because of this that I didn’t want my company to sponsor anything this year if that’s the way they treated their employees.

If the Club adopt a them and us attitude towards the Club and Supporters, that’s what they’ll get back and unfortunately there is a financial implication to this as well .

 

[jlsarmy]

5 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

Caldwell does have a vision which is promotion and to be established in the premier league again. 

You highlighted older signings but they are just there to help bring along the younger players (I don’t see why Harkins was signed though). Robson Williams Gordon Mansell etc are all young players with lots of potential, they play to their capabilities and they could make the club a lot of money, he has made young Jamie sneddon the permanent number 1,  brought in 3 development players. Kenny Miller is obviously signed to help fulfill the McDonald type scenario. Cardle was signed because he can score goals and is a big player to have in the dressing room and you seem pleased about his signing as well. 

TL ,  I believe you’ve got look at it more long term as a Club , surely there has to be a plan, whether that’s a 5 yr plan whether we get promotion or not .

Cardle definitely helps us , whether Caldwell plays him is a different matter and Kenny Miller will probably do ok for the last year of his career.

What happens after that , surely there has got to be some contingency plan if we don’t get promoted next year, my own personal opinion is we should try and coach our own players even if means staying in the Championship for a few years , so when we do get there we’ve got a chance to establish ourselves with our infrastructure  in place like a Motherwell , St Johnstone  or Hamilton 

 

 

[jagfox]

1 minute ago, jlsarmy said:

TL ,  I believe you’ve got look at it more long term as a Club , surely there has to be a plan, whether that’s a 5 yr plan whether we get promotion or not .

Cardle definitely helps us , whether Caldwell plays him is a different matter and Kenny Miller will probably do ok for the last year of his career.

What happens after that , surely there has got to be some contingency plan if we don’t get promoted next year, my own personal opinion is we should try and coach our own players even if means staying in the Championship for a few years , so when we do get there we’ve got a chance to establish ourselves with our infrastructure  in place like a Motherwell , St Johnstone  or Hamilton 

 

 

We’ve rejected a bid for Fitzpatrick. Sneddon looks like our No 1 GK going into next season. Callum Wilson and three lads promoted from the development squad are all part of the first team. I don’t see this to be a stick to beat the manger with? 

If we get taken over it’s highly likely we will be able to see youth players from other sides at the expense of bringing through our own players unless they prove to be exceptional talents.

[jagfox]

25 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

The Club keep on shooting themselves in the foot re revenue, most recent example being sponsorship, last year there was a personal email from Ross Quaile asking if you wanted to responsor last years player etc  this year a generic email from Gerry Britton regarding sponsorship.

I believe we are a Community Club and more people or supporters would come on board  if there was more connections between the Club and fans . The callous way that Doolans  departure from the club after 10 yrs and also in his testimonial year also left a bad taste in people’s mouths and I personally made a decision because of this that I didn’t want my company to sponsor anything this year if that’s the way they treated their employees.

If the Club adopt a them and us attitude towards the Club and Supporters, that’s what they’ll get back and unfortunately there is a financial implication to this as well .

 

My mate got offered to sponsor Dool’s shirt again this year! 

[jlsarmy]

5 minutes ago, jagfox said:

We’ve rejected a bid for Fitzpatrick. Sneddon looks like our No 1 GK going into next season. Callum Wilson and three lads promoted from the development squad are all part of the first team. I don’t see this to be a stick to beat the manger with? 

If we get taken over it’s highly likely we will be able to see youth players from other sides at the expense of bringing through our own players unless they prove to be exceptional talents.

Apart from Jamie Sneddon who we got from Cowdenbeath and possibly Fitzy , how many of our young players will get a chance .

Believe it or not I wasn’t criticising Caldwell, I was just saying as a Club at our level with not a lot of cash around , the sensible way is surely to coach your own players and give them a pathway to the first team as a long term strategy.

[jaf]

15 minutes ago, jagfox said:

We’ve rejected a bid for Fitzpatrick. Sneddon looks like our No 1 GK going into next season. Callum Wilson and three lads promoted from the development squad are all part of the first team. I don’t see this to be a stick to beat the manger with? 

If we get taken over it’s highly likely we will be able to see youth players from other sides at the expense of bringing through our own players unless they prove to be exceptional talents.

Why is it “highly likely”.  

Do you know something no one else does?

Did Jamie sneddon not progress despite our manager bringing in a loan goalkeeper from another club and playing them in preference. 

Did  we not loan several other players?

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by jaf

[jagfox]

2 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Apart from Jamie Sneddon who we got from Cowdenbeath and possibly Fitzy , how many of our young players will get a chance .

Believe it or not I wasn’t criticising Caldwell, I was just saying as a Club at our level with not a lot of cash around , the sensible way is surely to coach your own players and give them a pathway to the first team as a long term strategy.

Well there is another four in the first team squad. They’ve been given the opportunity so hopefully they can grasp it with both hands...er feet lol

[jagfox]

1 minute ago, jaf said:

Why is it “highly likely”.  

Do you know something no one else does?

Did Jamie sneddon not progress despite our manager bringing in a loan goalkeeper from another club and playing them in preference. 

Did  we not loan several other players?

 

 

Well that’s my understanding that the takeover would see us being a feeder club by way of blooding loan players for an other team or teams in their portfolio. What’s your understanding on that point?

 

[jlsarmy]

3 minutes ago, jagfox said:

Well there is another four in the first team squad. They’ve been given the opportunity so hopefully they can grasp it with both hands...er feet lol

Think only Fitzy and Penrice came through our system .

[Third Lanark]

5 minutes ago, jaf said:

Why is it “highly likely”.  

Do you know something no one else does?

Did Jamie sneddon not progress despite our manager bringing in a loan goalkeeper from another club and playing them in preference. 

Did  we not loan several other players?

 

 

I certainly wouldn’t have preferred to have stuck with calamity bell and the others, brice, Melbourne scobbie etc they really did nothing- I’m sure if you review it again you will these guys needed to be moved on -the short term loans helped get us out the relegation mess and also helped us on a wee cup run.

sneddons confidence had gone a bit thenas well but soon came back stronger than ever

[jaf]

6 minutes ago, jagfox said:

Well that’s my understanding that the takeover would see us being a feeder club by way of blooding loan players for an other team or teams in their portfolio. What’s your understanding on that point?

 

I have not heard our possible future owners make any comment on this. 

All I know is that there has been no inter club loans in their existing portfolio so not sure it’s part of their business model. 

They also haven’t said they will only allow us to sign players born in February. But perhaps that will be one of their policies too. 

Until we know otherwise, speculation is just that  

 

[jaf]

13 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

I certainly wouldn’t have preferred to have stuck with calamity bell and the others, brice, Melbourne scobbie etc they really did nothing- I’m sure if you review it again you will these guys needed to be moved on -the short term loans helped get us out the relegation mess and also helped us on a wee cup run.

sneddons confidence had gone a bit thenas well but soon came back stronger than ever

I am not disagreeing with any of that. 

My point is that this fallacy that potential new  owners will mean we stop developing our own players is built on  quicksand. 

Firstly, as you agree it was a necessity last season to do so. Therefore if they do it, what’s the difference. 

Secondly, they have made no comment including no comment about loaning players between their clubs. Furthermore there is no precedent for them doing so. 

There are many genuine merits and demerits if a sale of shares that could be debated for weeks in themselves  I just don’t think we need to invent further issues based entirely  on supposition   

 

[jagfox]

1 hour ago, jlsarmy said:

Think only Fitzy and Penrice came through our system .

Callum Wilson and three promoted from the academy.

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, jagfox said:

Well that’s my understanding that the takeover would see us being a feeder club by way of blooding loan players for an other team or teams in their portfolio. What’s your understanding on that point?

 

All clubs our size are effectively feeder clubs for others. Whether it’s our good young players getting bought up by bigger clubs or it’s us taking players on loan from bigger clubs

[allyo]

6 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

All clubs our size are effectively feeder clubs for others. Whether it’s our good young players getting bought up by bigger clubs or it’s us taking players on loan from bigger clubs

No no no. You make lots of good points and I totally respect that you have more knowledge than i do on what's going on. But the idea that there is no difference between being an independent club that has to live within its means and within its place in the natural order, and being a low ranking club in a stable, positioned to serve and feed other clubs within a defined structure. I can't accept that.

(PS, caveated by that fact that we don't know that that would happen, and it's all speculation)

[Lenziejag]

9 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

First - I think most people in Business Know its tough out there - so Im sympathetic to any Business thats making a loss etc - puts a lot of pressure on the owners 

But if your Running a Business that has lost Money - couple of things - surely that should be your Focus ?  Small Football Clubs are time consuming  ? 

Plus small Football Clubs are very difficult to manage financially - it takes a lot of skill and experience of managing  budgets- and running what I can only describe as an Austerity Type Budget regards Non Football Matters - if your going to break even 

Last Year we got the Parachute & EUFA Money  ( £850K ) - this Year bit of Parachute & some Liam Lindsay Money - but these are one offs - unplanned so to speak - my concern is underlying trends on things like Crowd Numbers -and  big Cash Generators 

It was noticeable that the End of Season Ball which used to be a sell out and was  Major Fundraiser - circa £70K Clear Profit - was merged with the Player of the Year Dinner 

Now BOTH of these used to sell out   - the End of Season Ball sold out even when we were previously in the Championship - so that tells us something 

Therefore my concern is that there seems to be signs of a downward trend in revenue generators eg Bums on Seats - Large Events - could be wrong - just looking and comparing 

Therefore we really do need people with the experience and contacts that can generate revenue - one other point - in the past if cash was tight Directors Chipped in with a Directors Fee - you need people on your Board that can afford to do that - ignoring the rights & wrongs - small Clubs can run into cashflow issues - bad fixture list - bad Weather- even getting  revenue forecasts wrong  - and sometimes that means short term funding  

Its ok to manage in the Premier with decent cash input - managing budgets in the Championship is a different beast - and apart from Ian Dodds we have no one with that experience 

For me in a Small Football Club its always about the Money - balancing budgets is key  !!  

 

 

 

Now, I am totally confused. On another thread, you were banging on about how a trip to Tenerife was funded and if it was external funding(ie Colin Weir) then we don’t have a sustainable set up. Now you are saying that in the past it was ok for Directors to put their hand in their pocket when things got a bit tight ?