Alloa Away (championship opener)

[allyo]

Interested in Penrice. My understanding was that he was a defensive midfielder, and a very good one, in the Livvy  team that won promotion from this league.

As a full back ive always been a bit underwhelmed, feeling that he rarely makes things happen in the way that some of our previous full backs have, and I was almost waiting for him to be moved to midfield. 

But is the consensus that he's not a good fit there?

[dl1971]

I think most will now agree that we are now a team that is difficult to beat. The stats show this since January. I agree we need more flair and a top notch goalscorer. Mansell and no longer Miller the answer. Jones? Who knows. Maybe Mitch Austin will be the missing link. Would still like to get Rudden if that's doable. Still reasonably confident this season will be better than last. 

[Weebaw1]

1 hour ago, allyo said:

Interested in Penrice. My understanding was that he was a defensive midfielder, and a very good one, in the Livvy  team that won promotion from this league.

As a full back ive always been a bit underwhelmed, feeling that he rarely makes things happen in the way that some of our previous full backs have, and I was almost waiting for him to be moved to midfield. 

But is the consensus that he's not a good fit there?

He didn’t look like a midfielder.

He was caught on the ball, no pace, no goal threat but worst of all no defensive presence whatsoever.

God knows how he was effective at Livi.

Hes probably our best LB though he had a shocker when shifted there. I was very disappointed in him and Banzo yesterday 

[jlsarmy]

3 minutes ago, Weebaw1 said:

He didn’t look like a midfielder.

He was caught on the ball, no pace, no goal threat but worst of all no defensive presence whatsoever.

God knows how he was effective at Livi.

Hes probably our best LB though he had a shocker when shifted there. I was very disappointed in him and Banzo yesterday 

He played left side of midfield for Livvy and did well with them in that position 

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, allyo said:

Interested in Penrice. My understanding was that he was a defensive midfielder, and a very good one, in the Livvy  team that won promotion from this league.

As a full back ive always been a bit underwhelmed, feeling that he rarely makes things happen in the way that some of our previous full backs have, and I was almost waiting for him to be moved to midfield. 

But is the consensus that he's not a good fit there?

He played in the centre of midfield and was totally unsuited to that. I thought that at Livi he played on the left of midfield. That might suit him better but I wouldn’t want to risk it in the near future.

[sandy]

8 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

This.

Altho' I'm as confused as hell re his starting formation  (would be tolerable if it wasn't so inflexible) I feel the delay in changing it was the bigger sin yesterday. Tho' I wouldn't go so far to say the narrow set up was completely redundant once Alloa took the lead, it certainly required more than just tweaking.  Effectively we played about a third of the game after Alloa scored before altering the formation. Albeit we scored prior to the change and had upped the tempo and intensity after the break. But we really needed to pin back their full backs and make more use of the widened pitch,

One of Archie's flaws was delaying substitutions, which is something I don't think we can accuse Caldwell of doing. If only GC was as quick to alter set ups we might be able to turn more draws into wins and defeats into draws. I get the impression that each player knows his role in the team and his responsibilities are drummed into him. At the same time I also get the impression for want of more accurate words  we're a bit heavy on the dogmatic and too light on the pragmatic. That might  explain how  we're maybe a tad too predictable.

On the brighter side, tho' we've obvious frailties to be addressed, I don't think we're too far off having a good season. Adding to the squad is of course a necessity but I'm far from despondent re the players we have just now. Just feel we need to play less rigid.

Steve Clarke is a fine example of a pragmatic, non-dogmatic manager who can recognise quickly when things aren’t working and change them.

[Auld Jag]

2 hours ago, Fawlty Towers said:

Saturday was a disppointment but it was not the end of the world. Was looking to see how today's win for our ladies team had changed the league table and saw this:

https://www.womenspremierleague.co.uk/fixtures-results/

So just be happy you don't support Hutchison Vale's Ladies!

They make Fort William look like a good team.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Can't believe that on the back of one poor performance that folk can judge Penrice's potential in midfield. From a negative argument James was just as poor yesterday when he returned to his normal position. From a more positive point of view he's not shown many signs of being out his class playing central midfield previously against more illustrious opponents. 

[dl1971]

3 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Can't believe that on the back of one poor performance that folk can judge Penrice's potential in midfield. From a negative argument James was just as poor yesterday when he returned to his normal position. From a more positive point of view he's not shown many signs of being out his class playing central midfield previously against more illustrious opponents. 

I can believe it. Some fans have judged the entire team on one league game.

[Weebaw1]

14 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

I can believe it. Some fans have judged the entire team on one league game.

I agree we have no reason to panic. We have players that other teams covet.

Banzo and Penrice are 2 of these I’m sure but they must appreciate that they need to improve on yesterday’s performance and quickly.

[allyo]

40 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Can't believe that on the back of one poor performance that folk can judge Penrice's potential in midfield. From a negative argument James was just as poor yesterday when he returned to his normal position. From a more positive point of view he's not shown many signs of being out his class playing central midfield previously against more illustrious opponents. 

Do you like him as a midfielder then? I have no view on this. Have hardly  (if ever) seen him there.

As a full back i just think he's been okay.

[jlsarmy]

17 minutes ago, allyo said:

Do you like him as a midfielder then? I have no view on this. Have hardly  (if ever) seen him there.

As a full back i just think he's been okay.

In the system that GC favours with wing backs , Tommy Robson is the better fit ( quicker and fitter ) , which leaves James Penrice out of the team .

If we go to a flat back 4 ,   Penrice is possibly more suited to playing left midfield with Robson behind him.

At this moment James Penrice if he wants to kick on , IMO has to be fitter and more athletic to get to the next level , he’s definitely got the ability.

[Thistle88]

4 hours ago, allyo said:

Interested in Penrice. My understanding was that he was a defensive midfielder, and a very good one, in the Livvy  team that won promotion from this league.

As a full back ive always been a bit underwhelmed, feeling that he rarely makes things happen in the way that some of our previous full backs have, and I was almost waiting for him to be moved to midfield. 

But is the consensus that he's not a good fit there?

I feel as if Penrice has been slightly mismanaged in a way.  When he first started getting game time it was as an attacking full back I'm sure that was a few end of the season cameo appearances.

Then Archie sort of experimented with him as a left sided CB.

He then went to Livi and I'm pretty sure he played both LM and CM but anything I remember about his good reviews was that he was good going forward.

He came back and last season seemed to be a full back who was only allowed to venture so far up the park under Caldwell.

Caldwell then, I'm pretty sure told fans who asked the question about his position that Penrice is a left back not a midfielder.

Then first game of this season he's a holding midfielder in front of a back 3( makes zero sense to me having a holding midfielder in front of a back 3,  imo if you play 3 at the back your 2 Cms should be mobile enough  to cover that area ) 

Feel as if he needs be set free in a way if that makes any sense at all.

ETA .. one of the most impressive things in his first few appearances was his delivery from set pieces and corners but that seems to have went backwards.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Thistle88

[KemoAvdiu]

29 minutes ago, Thistle88 said:

I feel as if Penrice has been slightly mismanaged in a way.  When he first started getting game time it was as an attacking full back I'm sure that was a few end of the season cameo appearances.

Then Archie sort of experimented with him as a left sided CB.

He then went to Livi and I'm pretty sure he played both LM and CM but anything I remember about his good reviews was that he was good going forward.

He came back and last season seemed to be a full back who was only allowed to venture so far up the park under Caldwell.

Caldwell then, I'm pretty sure told fans who asked the question about his position that Penrice is a left back not a midfielder.

Then first game of this season he's a holding midfielder in front of a back 3( makes zero sense to me having a holding midfielder in front of a back 3,  imo if you play 3 at the back your 2 Cms should be mobile enough  to cover that area ) 

Feel as if he needs be set free in a way if that makes any sense at all.

ETA .. one of the most impressive things in his first few appearances was his delivery from set pieces and corners but that seems to have went backwards.

He’s played the overwhelming majority of his games for us at left back - not buying the notion that he’s been in anyway mismanaged. I don’t think Caldwell has prevented him from venturing up the park, so much as Penrice’s lack of pace and mobility has prevented him. He’s one of the most overrated players in the team and Robson has offered significantly more than him so far this season. 

Edited August 4, 2019 by KemoAvdiu

[Thistle88]

53 minutes ago, KemoAvdiu said:

He’s played the overwhelming majority of his games for us at left back - not buying the notion that he’s been in anyway mismanaged. I don’t think Caldwell has prevented him from venturing up the park, so much as Penrice’s lack of pace and mobility has prevented him. He’s one of the most overrated players in the team and Robson has offered significantly more than him so far this season. 

I think he's a good player but I reckon he has more to offer as a central midfielder than A left back due to what you mentioned (lack of pace) .

But he was considerd one of the best players in the championship the season Livingston were promoted, but maybe mismanaged is the wrong term to use. 

We haven't been able to get the best out  of him .. but Livingston did so imo that's our fault.

 

[Thistle88]

3 hours ago, sandy said:

Steve Clarke is a fine example of a pragmatic, non-dogmatic manager who can recognise quickly when things aren’t working and change them.

Steve Clarke is a great example.. keeping things simple so everyone knows there job. For example a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1  you know ymthe area of the park you are supposed to cover.

Playing a 3-1-3-1-1 I'm already confused.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

13 hours ago, allyo said:

Do you like him as a midfielder then? I have no view on this. Have hardly  (if ever) seen him there.

As a full back i just think he's been okay.

My point was more that Penrice simply had a bad game regardless of where he was playing. Normally he's not uncomfortable playing centre mid.

At this moment in time Penrice is our best fullback but you could argue our only fullback. A dedicated right back should be high on the shopping list or we could be stuck with 3 at the back. Btw I've heard often enough that Saunders is poor in that position tho' he played there on occasion for County. 

[That 1 jags fan]

I feel Banzo is getting off the hook a bit, the whole team was awful but him especially my god. Absolutely pointless didn’t win the ball back, took to long to do his sideways stuff, cost us a goal and in general just awful for someone who is supposed to be too good for this league he’s a very bad opening so far.

[fenski]

So Bannigan had one bad game? I don't go to every game but just about every time I do, he is almost always one of the best players on the park. I'd be cutting him some slack...

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Weebaw1 said:

He didn’t look like a midfielder.

He was caught on the ball, no pace, no goal threat but worst of all no defensive presence whatsoever.

God knows how he was effective at Livi.

Hes probably our best LB though he had a shocker when shifted there. I was very disappointed in him and Banzo yesterday 

It's just one game in wee baw, don't be too quick to judge. I agree penrice was poor in that position yesterday but it's early days.

Bannigan hasn't been the same since he returned from injury but has been a consistent ever present. Give it time, they aren't bad players and one game shouldn't mean they won't do a job.

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, fenski said:

So Bannigan had one bad game? I don't go to every game but just about every time I do, he is almost always one of the best players on the park. I'd be cutting him some slack...

Probably in peoples minds is also his  back pass vs Clyde that cost us a goal - so 2 goals in 2 games.

[Weebaw1]

1 hour ago, Thistleberight said:

It's just one game in wee baw, don't be too quick to judge. I agree penrice was poor in that position yesterday but it's early days.

Bannigan hasn't been the same since he returned from injury but has been a consistent ever present. Give it time, they aren't bad players and one game shouldn't mean they won't do a job.

Agreed.

And I’m confident they’ll both improve!

[That 1 jags fan]

6 hours ago, fenski said:

So Bannigan had one bad game? I don't go to every game but just about every time I do, he is almost always one of the best players on the park. I'd be cutting him some slack...

 I just think it’s unfair that Penrice a young player still learning gets pellters but Bannigan who actually cost us a goal gets off easy. I’m not saying he can’t do a job or isn’t good enough just for someone who is a good player he’s had a bad start to the season.

Edited August 5, 2019 by That 1 jags fan

[rustic]

If it's true that the squad and management team had to make their own way to Alloa, as reported in the Evening Times article (link in Who owns what and who's in charge thread), maybe that affected the players. Could be that changes at the club are worrying them and resulted in most having a poor game on Saturday? 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, rustic said:

If it's true that the squad and management team had to make their own way to Alloa, as reported in the Evening Times article (link in Who owns what and who's in charge thread), maybe that affected the players. Could be that changes at the club are worrying them and resulted in most having a poor game on Saturday? 

As indicated elsewhere many of them would've had less travel time going direct to Alloa than meeting up somewhere then heading off in the bus. Come the Morton game of course that won't apply (unless most of them stay south of the river and west of Glasgow ).

I'd hope the players are concerned about off field issues and they're professional enough to know that good performances will make them less expendable or at worst give themselves an increased chance of getting a decent gig elsewhere. You do tho' have a point but it can also be turned on its head. They missed out on the trip back down the road when there would well have been a few playing issues of a negative nature to be discussed.