Reasons to be positive

[Semi Nurainen]

How many 9th games do we need?

[JAG1970]

On current form a tough run of 3 games coming up, home to Ayr and away to Montrose and Arbroath. Failure to win at Montrose, and a minimum of 4 points from the two league games (which would put us on a mere 5 points out of 15)... then there would be no purpose in waiting until the first quarter is out. If the excuse then was that we couldn’t afford to sack Caldwell then we risk flirting with relegation again, and an increasingly restless and dwindling support.

But does he get to sign another two or three players before then (from the current cup run), but on the evidence of some of his disappointing signings to date....

The board need to simultaneously provide clarity of direction.

[ARu-Strathbungo]

This may be clutching at straws …… we played a bad 45 minutes against DUFC and a bad 20 minutes against the 'ton'. Crucial spells as it turned out, but relatively short spells of rank, rotten play. Could a team with O'Ware as captain and playing a full 90 minutes be something we should be considering? Stuart Bannigan does not strike me as a natural captain.

Also, I know that Mansell does not have a lot of fans on this forum, but while he was on the field last night the Morton defence found him difficult to handle. I think his energy in pulling defences about allows the more natural goal scorers in the team [not that we have many of those admittedly] to have more opportunities.

Also, we have a good goalkeeper in young Sneddon, play him as number 1 and allow Fox to find another team …. having 2 number one GK's is not helping the team 'bed in' as a unit, and consequently means our defence needing to adapt to the requirements of each GK on a game by game basis …. this is something that is easily done in training, but not so easy when you are in 'back to the wall' defending mode during an actual game.

[laukat]

5 minutes ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

This may be clutching at straws …… we played a bad 45 minutes against DUFC and a bad 20 minutes against the 'ton'. Crucial spells as it turned out, but relatively short spells of rank, rotten play. Could a team with O'Ware as captain and playing a full 90 minutes be something we should be considering? Stuart Bannigan does not strike me as a natural captain.

Also, I know that Mansell does not have a lot of fans on this forum, but while he was on the field last night the Morton defence found him difficult to handle. I think his energy in pulling defences about allows the more natural goal scorers in the team [not that we have many of those admittedly] to have more opportunities.

Also, we have a good goalkeeper in young Sneddon, play him as number 1 and allow Fox to find another team …. having 2 number one GK's is not helping the team 'bed in' as a unit, and consequently means our defence needing to adapt to the requirements of each GK on a game by game basis …. this is something that is easily done in training, but not so easy when you are in 'back to the wall' defending mode during an actual game.

I agree with a lot of what you are suggesting regarding team selection. Personally I believe we need to put someone in as defence midfield and let Bannigan play further forward so I would go something like this

Sneddon

Williamson-Saunders-McGinty-Penrice

O'Ware

Cardle-DeVita-Bannigan-Robson

Miller

Palmer and Gordon are alternatives to O'Ware as CDM but please no more Bannigan in that position. Mansell is a better option form the bench if need to do something different to find a goal.

That being said its a struggle to find a decent team out of the squad GC has assembled. We're missing a true CDM and we're very reliant on Mitch Austin to provide speed and width. We would struggle for cover if Williamson is injured and I don't think he suits playing a back 4. The idea that Harkins and Slater returning will massively change our fortunes is clurching at straws. This may be a worse squad than the one Archie assembled which takes some doing.

[Semi Nurainen]

It shoes how far we've sunk when someone can write 'A tough run of 3 games coming up … Ayr, Montrose and Arbroath' on here without the merest hint of irony.

[jaf]

2 hours ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

This may be clutching at straws …… we played a bad 45 minutes against DUFC and a bad 20 minutes against the 'ton'. Crucial spells as it turned out, but relatively short spells of rank, rotten play. Could a team with O'Ware as captain and playing a full 90 minutes be something we should be considering? Stuart Bannigan does not strike me as a natural captain.

Also, I know that Mansell does not have a lot of fans on this forum, but while he was on the field last night the Morton defence found him difficult to handle. I think his energy in pulling defences about allows the more natural goal scorers in the team [not that we have many of those admittedly] to have more opportunities.

Also, we have a good goalkeeper in young Sneddon, play him as number 1 and allow Fox to find another team …. having 2 number one GK's is not helping the team 'bed in' as a unit, and consequently means our defence needing to adapt to the requirements of each GK on a game by game basis …. this is something that is easily done in training, but not so easy when you are in 'back to the wall' defending mode during an actual game.

Out of likes, but agree with all of this

It amazed me that Caldwell sees McGinty as more of a leader than O'Ware

Agree too re Mansell - I have thought the same 

I think Sneddon has performed better than fox in games so far this season, just as he performed better than Hazard last season - this constant swapping of keepers is surely  not helpful to either keepers performances nor the team as a whole

I feel very sorry for Banzo - his is having to do too much work in that midfield, and is doing one of the jobs particularly well as a result

 

 

 

 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

2 hours ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

This may be clutching at straws …… we played a bad 45 minutes against DUFC and a bad 20 minutes against the 'ton'. Crucial spells as it turned out, but relatively short spells of rank, rotten play. Could a team with O'Ware as captain and playing a full 90 minutes be something we should be considering? Stuart Bannigan does not strike me as a natural captain.

Also, I know that Mansell does not have a lot of fans on this forum, but while he was on the field last night the Morton defence found him difficult to handle. I think his energy in pulling defences about allows the more natural goal scorers in the team [not that we have many of those admittedly] to have more opportunities.

Also, we have a good goalkeeper in young Sneddon, play him as number 1 and allow Fox to find another team …. having 2 number one GK's is not helping the team 'bed in' as a unit, and consequently means our defence needing to adapt to the requirements of each GK on a game by game basis …. this is something that is easily done in training, but not so easy when you are in 'back to the wall' defending mode during an actual game.

Go along with this in sentiment at least but if you allow me to play the Devil's Dick Advocaat.....

Why would O'Ware be any more a natural captain than Bannigan? Also, regardless if Mansell is "pulling defences", how long do you give him if others aren't scoring? And if  both goalies are going thru bad spells isn't it better that the more experienced keeper is between the sticks, given he's far less likely to be adversely affected by the pressure?

 

 

 

[Gary Peebles Tackle]

Nothing against him, but we’re accepting Kenny Miller as our No1 striker. 

Dark days indeed. Not much to be positive about at all.

[Auld Jag]

2 hours ago, Semi Nurainen said:

It shoes how far we've sunk when someone can write 'A tough run of 3 games coming up … Ayr, Montrose and Arbroath' on here without the merest hint of irony.

I would go even further, our next 4 games are winnable. Dunfermline at home is the 4th. If this poor run in the league continues whoever is in charge will have a big decision to make.

[scotty]

10 hours ago, Semi Nurainen said:

It shoes how far we've sunk when someone can write 'A tough run of 3 games coming up … Ayr, Montrose and Arbroath' on here without the merest hint of irony.

But this is the reality. We are not a huge club who are going through a short off-form spell. We are a mid-table Championship club who had a brief period at a higher level but couldn't sustain it. So all the talk of a consortium coming in to buy us, make us into Champions League contenders and then make loadsa cash from us is fantasy. We need a rich benefactor to provide a cash injection to stabilise the club and stop us sinking too far below our level. Anyone know who would fit the bill. Oh ....!

Edited August 25, 2019 by scotty

[Firhillista]

"We are not a huge club who are going through a short off-form spell. We are a mid-table Championship club who had a brief period at a higher level but couldn't sustain it."

Sorry, don't agree.

Maybe it's an age thing, but in my opinion Thistle are a mid-table PREMIERSHIP club who have struggled often in the wilderness since the original introduction of the Premier League.

Once upon a time (sorry, children) we had the same capacity of fan base as Motherwell, St. Johnstone, Kilmarnock and the Dundee clubs. (To be fair, so did Falkirk, Dunfermline, even Clyde.)

What's made the past two seasons such a kick in the guts is that we, briefly, looked like we could restore our position in Scottish football. Instead, we're toiling in the second top league. Again.

I don't see anything that St. Johnstone or Motherwell or Kilmarnock are doing that's beyond Thistle. We should be aiming to be a top league team who can get to cup finals and win Old Firm games on a good day. I genuinely don't see that as an unreasonable aspiration and I don't think we need rich benefactor to do it. After all, we got into the top six without Colin Weir financing the club.

And if a consortium coming in to buy us is a fantasy, we're all due a Bobby Ewing moment when we step out of the shower tomorrow and realise that the past six weeks didn't happen. Wouldn't that be nice?!

[jaf]

2 hours ago, scotty said:

But this is the reality. We are not a huge club who are going through a short off-form spell. We are a mid-table Championship club who had a brief period at a higher level but couldn't sustain it. So all the talk of a consortium coming in to buy us, make us into Champions League contenders and then make loadsa cash from us is fantasy. We need a rich benefactor to provide a cash injection to stabilise the club and stop us sinking too far below our level. Anyone know who would fit the bill. Oh ....!

And if the only way said benefactor was willing to put in money in future was for example by a loan with unfavourable terms , would you be happy with that? 

[jaf]

11 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Go along with this in sentiment at least but if you allow me to play the Devil's Dick Advocaat.....

Why would O'Ware be any more a natural captain than Bannigan? Also, regardless if Mansell is "pulling defences", how long do you give him if others aren't scoring? And if  both goalies are going thru bad spells isn't it better that the more experienced keeper is between the sticks, given he's far less likely to be adversely affected by the pressure?

 

 

 

I don’t believe sneddon has been going through a bad spell.  I believe he had one game where it was debatable whether he was to blame.  With fox  though I believe it is a spell  

 

 

[scotty]

26 minutes ago, jaf said:

And if the only way said benefactor was willing to put in money in future was for example by a loan with unfavourable terms , would you be happy with that? 

Have you someone in mind?

[Semi Nurainen]

3 hours ago, scotty said:

But this is the reality. We are not a huge club who are going through a short off-form spell. We are a mid-table Championship club who had a brief period at a higher level but couldn't sustain it. So all the talk of a consortium coming in to buy us, make us into Champions League contenders and then make loadsa cash from us is fantasy. We need a rich benefactor to provide a cash injection to stabilise the club and stop us sinking too far below our level. Anyone know who would fit the bill. Oh ....!

I'll say it yet again: the root of all evil at Firhill, since the day I crossed the door, is the preparedness of large numbers of fans to accept incompetent, substandard, and occasionally disgraceful,  performances from the board, the manager and the players.

[Winter of '63]

3 hours ago, scotty said:

But this is the reality. We are not a huge club who are going through a short off-form spell. We are a mid-table Championship club who had a brief period at a higher level but couldn't sustain it. So all the talk of a consortium coming in to buy us, make us into Champions League contenders and then make loadsa cash from us is fantasy. We need a rich benefactor to provide a cash injection to stabilise the club and stop us sinking too far below our level. Anyone know who would fit the bill. Oh ....!

Sorry but I can't agree with this at all. With the exception of Dundee, we are Scotland's most underachieving club.  Motherwell & Kilmarnock were our peer group but they have been Top League mainstays for years... St Mirren  are of similar status but they have done better than us over the last 20 years, as have teams who historically had smaller fan-bases and  less success - St Johnstone,  Inverness, Ross County, Livingston & Hamilton. 

I always attributed our decline from the early 1980's to our failure to bring through good young players and filling our team with journeymen from other clubs. I was therefore very enthusiastic about the potential of the Weir Thistle Academy. The first generation seemed promising but only Penrice has made it to the first team  and then we saw Fitzpatrick briefly.

Almost as depressing  last season as some Thistle Supporters crediting Caldwell with an achievement in avoiding relegation was the series of absolute hammerings of our Development Side, losing virtually every game heavily - I think they shipped 9 goals against Hearts.  I have no idea what went wrong but it seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity to  regenerate our club has been squandered.   

[jaf]

59 minutes ago, scotty said:

Have you someone in mind?

Yes 

[scotty]

1 hour ago, Firhillista said:

"We are not a huge club who are going through a short off-form spell. We are a mid-table Championship club who had a brief period at a higher level but couldn't sustain it."

Sorry, don't agree.

Maybe it's an age thing, but in my opinion Thistle are a mid-table PREMIERSHIP club who have struggled often in the wilderness since the original introduction of the Premier League.

We've been in the top division 21 out of the last 50 seasons and the longest we've remained there in that period is 5 seasons. Whereas we had spells of 10 and 9 seasons in the lower ones.

Edited August 25, 2019 by scotty

[scotty]

1 hour ago, Semi Nurainen said:

I'll say it yet again: the root of all evil at Firhill, since the day I crossed the door, is the preparedness of large numbers of fans to accept incompetent, substandard, and occasionally disgraceful,  performances from the board, the manager and the players.

So it's the board's, team's, fan's fault? Or are you also blaming the stadium too?

[Firhillista]

37 minutes ago, scotty said:

We've been in the top division 21 out of the last 50 seasons and the longest we've remained there in that period is 5 seasons. Whereas we had spells of 10 and 9 seasons in the lower ones.

Prior to our relegation in season 1969/70, we had been ever present in the top division since before the first world war. Now I know for some of you youngsters this will seem like ancient history, but some of us can remember a time when Thistle were a top flight team and I refuse to accept that we should just acquiesce to being a mid-table second top division club.

In more recent years we've yo-yo'd between top and second, but there's been plenty of evidence along the way to indicate that we're more than capable of being an established top flight club.

St. Johnstone are often referred to as the example we should aspire to and with good reason. There's no way that Perth and surrounding areas provides a bigger catchment area for their fan base than Thistle's location in the largest conurbation in Scotland. And, yes, I know we have the ugly sisters on our doorstep, but every club in Scotland, irrespective of their location, has to put up with seeing buses of locals heading to Glasgow every Saturday. The Dundee clubs are right on St. Johnstone's doorstep too and they probably provide more competition for fans than we have deal with.

The league set up in Scotland is brutal. If you drop out of the top division, getting back in is really difficult and, more importantly, staying there is a major challenge. That's why Hamilton Accies maintenance of their position is so impressive. Although I bet their fans sweat bullets every year at the prospect of relegation because they know that re-establishing their place in the top division would be a huge ask.

Dundee United, a club with a fine European pedigree, have struggled to get back into the top division. Dunfermline, also a club with an impressive European pedigree, although less recent, haven't seen the top division in some time, not do they look likely to do so anytime soon.

I'm not, necessarily, advocating league reconstruction, but we do need to acknowledge the difficulties that all Scottish clubs have outwith the top five of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen - and even some of them struggle on occasion. 

I admire supporters of teams like Albion Rovers and Brechin and Stranraer and others. They support their team while they must know that they'll never see them in the top division. But I support Thistle and I don't accept that we're a lower division team. We're capable of being up there with the best that Scotland has to offer. Maybe not in the near future, but we'll be there one day.

Next year in Jerusalem....

Edited August 25, 2019 by Firhillista

[ARu-Strathbungo]

1 hour ago, Firhillista said:

"We are not a huge club who are going through a short off-form spell. We are a mid-table Championship club who had a brief period at a higher level but couldn't sustain it."

Sorry, don't agree.

Maybe it's an age thing, but in my opinion Thistle are a mid-table PREMIERSHIP club who have struggled often in the wilderness since the original introduction of the Premier League.

Once upon a time (sorry, children) we had the same capacity of fan base as Motherwell, St. Johnstone, Kilmarnock and the Dundee clubs. (To be fair, so did Falkirk, Dunfermline, even Clyde.)

What's made the past two seasons such a kick in the guts is that we, briefly, looked like we could restore our position in Scottish football. Instead, we're toiling in the second top league. Again.

I don't see anything that St. Johnstone or Motherwell or Kilmarnock are doing that's beyond Thistle. We should be aiming to be a top league team who can get to cup finals and win Old Firm games on a good day. I genuinely don't see that as an unreasonable aspiration and I don't think we need rich benefactor to do it. After all, we got into the top six without Colin Weir financing the club.

And if a consortium coming in to buy us is a fantasy, we're all due a Bobby Ewing moment when we step out of the shower tomorrow and realise that the past six weeks didn't happen. Wouldn't that be nice?!

I broadly agree with what you are saying, but I would say we were a mid table  old FIRST Division [with 18 teams] team rather than a PREMIERSHIP team [with 12 teams]

To illustrate the differences of the leagues I 'googled' the season 67/68 [simply because this was the first year I watched PTFC on a regular basis].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967–68_Scottish_Division_One

To my mind we were comfortable in the First Division, but other than the one season we were top 6 in the Premiership, I don't believe we could describe our play as comfortable for the other 4 seasons we played in the Premiership. 

Regarding the fan base, I wonder what really happened to all the 50,000 supporters that turned up to see PTFC play Rangers all those years ago in 1922? Assuming we had 1/3 of the support and RFC had the other 2/3, that still means we had a support of 15,000 …. where have the Thistle fans gone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_attendance_records

Is the support in Glasgow now split more along religious lines??  with the ugly sisters sharing the majority between themselves? ….  its a horrible thought

[jaf]

13 minutes ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

I broadly agree with what you are saying, but I would say we were a mid table  old FIRST Division [with 18 teams] team rather than a PREMIERSHIP team [with 12 teams]

To illustrate the differences of the leagues I 'googled' the season 67/68 [simply because this was the first year I watched PTFC on a regular basis].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967–68_Scottish_Division_One

To my mind we were comfortable in the First Division, but other than the one season we were top 6 in the Premiership, I don't believe we could describe our play as comfortable for the other 4 seasons we played in the Premiership. 

Regarding the fan base, I wonder what really happened to all the 50,000 supporters that turned up to see PTFC play Rangers all those years ago in 1922? Assuming we had 1/3 of the support and RFC had the other 2/3, that still means we had a support of 15,000 …. where have the Thistle fans gone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_attendance_records

Is the support in Glasgow now split more along religious lines??  with the ugly sisters sharing the majority between themselves? ….  its a horrible thought

I could be wrong but I think the league cup games with east fife in the 50s produced the largest domestic crowds for matches not including the old firm. 

[jagfox]

27 minutes ago, ARu-Strathbungo said:

I broadly agree with what you are saying, but I would say we were a mid table  old FIRST Division [with 18 teams] team rather than a PREMIERSHIP team [with 12 teams]

To illustrate the differences of the leagues I 'googled' the season 67/68 [simply because this was the first year I watched PTFC on a regular basis].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967–68_Scottish_Division_One

To my mind we were comfortable in the First Division, but other than the one season we were top 6 in the Premiership, I don't believe we could describe our play as comfortable for the other 4 seasons we played in the Premiership. 

Regarding the fan base, I wonder what really happened to all the 50,000 supporters that turned up to see PTFC play Rangers all those years ago in 1922? Assuming we had 1/3 of the support and RFC had the other 2/3, that still means we had a support of 15,000 …. where have the Thistle fans gone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_attendance_records

Is the support in Glasgow now split more along religious lines??  with the ugly sisters sharing the majority between themselves? ….  its a horrible thought

The vast majority if not all of them will be dead...

[Big Col]

21 hours ago, JAG1970 said:

On current form a tough run of 3 games coming up, home to Ayr and away to Montrose and Arbroath. 

That is quite possibly the most depressing thing I’ve ever read on here.

[JAG1970]

35 minutes ago, Big Col said:

That is quite possibly the most depressing thing I’ve ever read on here.

Yes, but is a reflection of where I believe we are. I thought our one goal wins over lower league opposition in the cup were totally underwhelming and an indication of things to come.

caldwell has been unable to produce any consistency and by his own admission we were 2 up at Morton because their defence was poor rather than us being good. If we’re being generous we’ve failed to put in 90 mins against anybody so far this season (yes we did well against County but I thought the first 45 was poor).

I’m highly doubtful of Caldwell’s ability as a manager, some of his signings look rank, his tactics, his ability to change a game, and what sometimes looks like a lack of bottle or belief in the team. The inability to take advantage of a gifted 2.0 lead at Morton is a perfect illustration.

Add to that the off field stuff and we currently look like a team at best going nowhere or as we experienced last season, when you’re not in contention at the top you may find yourself in trouble at the other end.

I would think McCall and the bunnet understand our fragility and will seek to exploit it, hence why I think these games will be a test for us. And Montrose have nothing to lose, and we did lose to E Fife away in the cup last season albeit under Archibald.

im into my 50th season watching the Jags. I’ve seen the good, the bad, the ugly and the downright rotten over that time. My experience suggests this manager will not take us forward.