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Tunnocks Cup Semi Final

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43 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

Credit where credit is due, Arbroath showing up a number of so called bigger clubs. Who would have ever thought DC could be in the running for manager of the year in the Championship.

I was at hospitality when we were up there recently.  What a superbly run club they are at moment. All their directors pitching in on match day, building a true community, and united in a common goal of making their team on the pitch better.  Nothing else. Oh. And there was a sense of fun around the place. When did we last see that at firhill? 
 

Sadly in recent years, we have had division after division, pro Archie/anti Archie, pro low/antilow, pro Beattie/anti Beattie, pro consortium/anti consortium, pro fan ownership/anti fan ownership and now pro McCall/anti McCall.  We need to start uniting as a support - we support Partick thistle, none of the individuals above, but the club. 

Edited by jaf
Additional comment re fun occurred to me!
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13 minutes ago, jaf said:

I was at hospitality when we were up there recently.  What a superbly run club they are at moment. All their directors pitching in on match day, building a true community, and united in a common goal of making their team on the pitch better.  Nothing else. 
 

Sadly in recent years, we have had division after division, pro Archie/anti Archie, pre low/antilow, pro Beattie/anti Beattie, pro consortium/anti consortium, pro fan ownership/anti fan ownership and now pro McCall/anti McCall.  We need to start uniting as a support - we support Partick thistle, none of the individuals above, but the club. 

A better man than me once said:

"Every Kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand"

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55 minutes ago, jaf said:

I am sure that question mark is utterly superfluous.  You seem pretty convinced you know all the answers.  

I certainly don't have all the answers, just trying to understand the arguments. You seem to be saying that the board (or others at the top) are interfering with the manager's ability to get the team working and I'm interested in exploring that further.

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37 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

A better man than me once said:

"Every Kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand"

I think that man was still president when we last win at home and had a clean sheet

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2 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

I think that man was still president when we last win at home and had a clean sheet

I don't think that man ever got to be President, at least not on this earth. Surely we have won the odd game and secured the occasional clean sheet in the past two millennia, though I concede that it is becoming progressively more difficult to remember.

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33 minutes ago, partickthedog said:

I don't think that man ever got to be President, at least not on this earth. Surely we have won the odd game and secured the occasional clean sheet in the past two millennia, though I concede that it is becoming progressively more difficult to remember.

It was quoted by Lincoln but he changed kingdom to house

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I think the fans backed the team well last night. Yes there was some booing at half time and i was disappointed when a number of fans left the John Lambie stand as soon as the second goal went in. But it is a 2 way thing, the fans also feed of the team and they didn't do much until we scored. 

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57 minutes ago, scotty said:

I certainly don't have all the answers, just trying to understand the arguments. You seem to be saying that the board (or others at the top) are interfering with the manager's ability to get the team working and I'm interested in exploring that further.

What does the word “if” mean?  It was present in my original post.  You seem dismissive of the notion that the effectiveness of a manager can be impacted by board or other events at a club. I disagree. It’s a matter of opinion. 
 

my subsequent comment even said - I don’t know if that’s the case here - so I think you are trying desperately to put words in my mouth. 
 

let me be more specific since I feel like I am being cross examined by you........
 

In general terms, in my opinion,  the effectiveness of a manager can be negatively impacted by events at a senior level of a football club. I imagine none of us know definitively whether that is the case with Partick thistle one way or another, but what clearly is the case understandably is there has been much upheaval at the club at that level this season and recently, and so the manager is working under a different structure and people compared to when he was appointed. 
 

 

Edited by jaf
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8 minutes ago, jaf said:

What does the word “if” mean?  It was present in my original post.  You seem dismissive of the notion that the effectiveness of a manager can be impacted by board or other events at a club. I disagree. It’s a matter of opinion. 
 

my subsequent comment even said - I don’t know if that’s the case here - so I think you are trying desperately to put words in my mouth. 
 

let me be more specific since I feel like I am being cross examined by you........
 

In general terms, in my opinion,  the effectiveness of a manager can be negatively impacted by events at a senior level of a football club. I imagine none of us know definitively whether that is the case with Partick thistle one way or another, but what clearly is the case understandably is there has been much upheaval at the club at that level this season and recently, and so the manager is working under a different structure and people compared to when he was appointed. 
 

 

We obviously don't know what is going on behind the scenes. But i do think that McCall was well backed by the board in the January window.

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2 hours ago, scotty said:

hiwever if there is a lack of discretion at a senior level of club impacting on manager or players, or if there were too much interference or interest in team affairs by people not qualified to do so, then I am sure there can be an impact.  So it’s not always as black and white as you suggest. 

So what are you meaning here?

As in any company if there is poor management at the top, or insecurity or a vacuum it passes down the line to the guys at the coal face in this case the players and manager. I’ve been in jobs before where production and morale drops due to a new owner coming in, a transitional board or idiotic decisions. Workers start talking more about WTF is going on rather than concentrating on their job, guys start looking else where and basically performance is sapped

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Don't agree there was a lack of effort. If anything there was too much effort and too little composure.There was nobody putting their foot on the ball,everything was rushed or hopeful. Crosses,particularly from Cardle, were hit and hope ,to one man in the box.Graham had little chance getting to the ball with 2 or 3 defenders around him.Agree that our keeper,regardless whether Fox or Sneddon ,should clear out everybody for crosses.

The problem is that when a team is on a losing streak,no one wants to hold the ball.Just get rid of it is the mantra.

As far slagging McCall because he chews chewing gum? Really? Did you notice one of his laces was undone? Disgraceful!!

McCall is the McCall h e's always been.I think he is an honest,experienced manager who has the best interests of Thistle at heart but maybe this situation is beyond him.One thing is sure ,sucking Polo mints instead of chewing gum is not the answer to our problems.

Just sayin'

Edited by cyprusjag
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11 minutes ago, cyprusjag said:

Don't agree there was a lack of effort. If anything there was too much effort and too little composure.There was nobody putting their foot on the ball,everything was rushed or hopeful. Crosses,particularly from Cardle, were hit and hope ,to one man in the box.Graham had little chance getting to the ball with 2 or 3 defenders around him.Agree that our keeper,regardless whether Fox or Sneddon ,should clear out everybody for crosses.

The problem is that when a team is on a losing streak,no one wants to hold the ball.Just get rid of it is the mantra.

As far slagging McCall because he chews chewing gum? Really? Did you notice one of his laces was undone? Disgraceful!!

McCall is the McCall h e's always been.I think he is an honest,experienced manager who has the best interests of Thistle at heart but maybe this situation is beyond him.One thing is sure ,sucking Polo mints instead of chewing gum is not the answer to our problems.

Just sayin'

Totally correct.

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1 hour ago, jaf said:

What does the word “if” mean?  It was present in my original post.  You seem dismissive of the notion that the effectiveness of a manager can be impacted by board or other events at a club. I disagree. It’s a matter of opinion. 
 

my subsequent comment even said - I don’t know if that’s the case here - so I think you are trying desperately to put words in my mouth. 
 

let me be more specific since I feel like I am being cross examined by you........
 

In general terms, in my opinion,  the effectiveness of a manager can be negatively impacted by events at a senior level of a football club. I imagine none of us know definitively whether that is the case with Partick thistle one way or another, but what clearly is the case understandably is there has been much upheaval at the club at that level this season and recently, and so the manager is working under a different structure and people compared to when he was appointed. 
 

 

So are you talking hypothetically or about the situation at Thistle? I know the things you are saying can happen but I'm not sure that is what is happening with Ian McCall as he seemed to be a popular choice with the previous board and it appears he has the backing of the current, interim board.

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1 hour ago, Norgethistle said:

As in any company if there is poor management at the top, or insecurity or a vacuum it passes down the line to the guys at the coal face in this case the players and manager. I’ve been in jobs before where production and morale drops due to a new owner coming in, a transitional board or idiotic decisions. Workers start talking more about WTF is going on rather than concentrating on their job, guys start looking else where and basically performance is sapped

I think you are correct and I've seen the same things happen in working environments I've been in. There needs to somebody in charge on a day to day basis that the staff fear, aim to please and know not to try and pull a fast one with.

In a football club that can be either the team manager, the chief excutive or the chairman.We have I think in McCall a good team manager. Our chairman is a bit of mystery box at the moment so that places more onus on the chief executive.

Having an ex-player as chief executive is not something that many other clubs do and we've only really done it twice. I don't doubt Gerry Britton trys his best, he was a great player for us and clearly an intelligent man. However what previous experience does he have of running a business or the operations of a  football club? How does a degree and a couple of years experince in law qualify you to be a chief exec of any organisation?

I think having an ex-player and ex-manager as chief exec makes it more likely that he will subconsciously forgive mistakes because he has made the same mistakes. A non-football chief exec is more likely to focus on results rather than allow his previous experience to influence his decision making.  For example one of the things that concerned me from the GC meet the manager nights was how friendly the realtionship was between GC and Britton. GC didn't seem to show much  deference or fear of Britton. The team manager should know that the chief exec is the guy he needs to keep happy.

From what I read of how Ian Maxwell became our general manager it read like the chairman was trying to appease a player than would have had limited career options outside of football and who we didn't want to take on as a coach. It didn't strike me as we advertised the post and appointed the best candidate.

Maxwell was general maanger/ chief exec in a period where we had a decent chairman, a decent manager and a good team. I'm not sure if Maxwell was good or lucky. When Maxwell left we seemed to go for Britton without much process. Britton might be the best candidate but I'm not sure how we know that and I'm not sure how the board either gauge his performance or remove him should his performance not be satisfactory?

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1 hour ago, cyprusjag said:

Don't agree there was a lack of effort. If anything there was too much effort and too little composure.There was nobody putting their foot on the ball,everything was rushed or hopeful.

That's much as I saw it.

Others may think differently but a lack of effort usually equates to players hiding, shirking tackles etc. I didn't really see anything of that last night. Downing tools and running out of ideas are two completely different failings but ultimately result in the same duff end product.  On an individual basis I thought our most disappointing players last night were actually the ones that that saw most of the ball.  Panicky distribution and similar to what you say, no one person trying to control/switch the tempo mostly to blame.

 

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the boy dylan tait playing for raith last night was seemingly released by us! playing in their first team and hes only just turned 18.

what a hatchet job archie, scott mckenzie etc did on the academy. some amount of these boys only becoming players when they leave the club, the amount of cricket scores that youth team used to get as well. all of weirs money in that academy wasted and even with our shit squad and players unavailable last night due to being cup tied and we still couldnt even get a youth player on the bench.

its mad how poorly we are run as a club at every level.  

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5 hours ago, jaf said:

I was at hospitality when we were up there recently.  What a superbly run club they are at moment. All their directors pitching in on match day, building a true community, and united in a common goal of making their team on the pitch better.  Nothing else. Oh. And there was a sense of fun around the place. When did we last see that at firhill? 
 

Sadly in recent years, we have had division after division, pro Archie/anti Archie, pro low/antilow, pro Beattie/anti Beattie, pro consortium/anti consortium, pro fan ownership/anti fan ownership and now pro McCall/anti McCall.  We need to start uniting as a support - we support Partick thistle, none of the individuals above, but the club. 

There is no community at the club. the majority of the fanbase (myself included) lives outside the local area and travels in from a scattering of places. as a club we have totally neglected the possil/ruchill/maryhill/milton type areas in the vicinity of the ground.  if you went through the databse of jagzone/season ticket holders etc how many would live in milngavie, bearsden, bishopbriggs, cumbernauld, the west end etc compared to these places?

we're too busy spending time doing pointless pr exercises on things like funny looking mascots

Edited by avie-man

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8 minutes ago, avie-man said:

the boy dylan tait playing for raith last night was seemingly released by us! playing in their first team and hes only just turned 18.

what a hatchet job archie, scott mckenzie etc did on the academy. some amount of these boys only becoming players when they leave the club, the amount of cricket scores that youth team used to get as well. all of weirs money in that academy wasted and even with our shit squad and players unavailable last night due to being cup tied and we still couldnt even get a youth player on the bench.

its mad how poorly we are run as a club at every level.  

I was having my usual pregame chat with @partickthedog and said to him i did not understand why we didn't have a couple of the younger players on the bench. Even if they don't get on the park the experience of being involved with the first team in a cup semi final would be a good thing.

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26 minutes ago, avie-man said:

the boy dylan tait playing for raith last night was seemingly released by us! playing in their first team and hes only just turned 18.

what a hatchet job archie, scott mckenzie etc did on the academy. some amount of these boys only becoming players when they leave the club, the amount of cricket scores that youth team used to get as well. all of weirs money in that academy wasted and even with our shit squad and players unavailable last night due to being cup tied and we still couldnt even get a youth player on the bench.

its mad how poorly we are run as a club at every level.  

There was/is no focus on the youth and giving them a pathway to the first team.

The budget I believe last year was only 30k to give  any of the promising players a professional contract. It makes no sense to me why you would coach youngsters  from the age of 9 yrs old onwards , then when it comes to joining the paid ranks there is no budget to keep them on and that’s why players like Dylan Tait are slipping through the net.

The focus was always on the first team , with available monies getting put into there ( that worked well ! ) , maybe in the coming years we should focus on the Academy, bringing youngsters through to the first team and possibly give us foundations for a successful future.

 

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Had a look through the eyes of some of the posters (Note I said posters and not roasters)

First, the tactical decision to completely dispense with Guardiola's six second rule and totally allow he opposition as much time and possession as they wanted, and boy didn't Raith Rovers fall right into our trap, truly inspired move.

Bannigan as usual was immense with total control and command of the midfield, humiliating and humbling the opposition. Its displays like this that will have Bannigan's agent out and about looking for another club. He no doubt will be hoping his client isn't injured like the last time.

I understand that Kenny has came out to address the malicious remarks that the simplest job in the world is that of goal keeping coach. There is a great deal more to being a coach than just throwing the ball directly at the keeper, far from it, there is the far more complicated method of kicking the ball directly at the keeper. That being said, Fox was on brilliant form also with total command of his eighteen yard box, so much in charge was he that any attempt upon our goal was treated with contempt and his refusal to give it credence by making attempt for it.

At this time there is no need for despondency. thistles emphasis is based upon the passing game, we shun the hoof into the oppositions box in the vain act of scoring. it is much more dignifying to just pass the ball rather than any attempt to put a ball in a net.

On the pitch and in keeping with the spirit of liberal enlightenment our homage to the world Rainbow movement is our delicate approach to tackling or challenging for possession, this deserves high praise. The rough tough burley displays of yesteryear are consigned to the past. Shankly knew nothing when he claimed that you cant get into the top league by playing football, just how many European trophy's did he win.....My point is made.

beach balls and inflatable crocodiles at the ready  

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7 hours ago, jaf said:

I was at hospitality when we were up there recently.  What a superbly run club they are at moment. All their directors pitching in on match day, building a true community, and united in a common goal of making their team on the pitch better.  Nothing else. Oh. And there was a sense of fun around the place. When did we last see that at firhill? 
 

Sadly in recent years, we have had division after division, pro Archie/anti Archie, pro low/antilow, pro Beattie/anti Beattie, pro consortium/anti consortium, pro fan ownership/anti fan ownership and now pro McCall/anti McCall.  We need to start uniting as a support - we support Partick thistle, none of the individuals above, but the club. 

I was at Arbroath hospitality too. Totally agree with you. There was a really club/team feel. Everyone enjoying themselves, everyone chipping in. I felt more at home there than I do with my own team. Crossed my mind to support Arbroath for the remainder of this season.... But nah - that's what glory hunters do - I'm lumbered with this dull non-entertaing team whether I like it or not...

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6 hours ago, avie-man said:

the boy dylan tait playing for raith last night was seemingly released by us! playing in their first team and hes only just turned 18.

what a hatchet job archie, scott mckenzie etc did on the academy. some amount of these boys only becoming players when they leave the club, the amount of cricket scores that youth team used to get as well. all of weirs money in that academy wasted and even with our shit squad and players unavailable last night due to being cup tied and we still couldnt even get a youth player on the bench.

its mad how poorly we are run as a club at every level.  

I hadn’t realised we had released Dylan tait as well. Astonishing that Archie is still here picking up a wage for an extra assistant managers post that really is not needed

Edited by Third Lanark

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Archibald’s return sums up everything that it is wrong with the club. A guy who just stood there with his arms folded who watched us go down with a whimper is now back stood with hims arms folded as we are about to go down another level. The worst thing about it is how bad the standard is in this league. And we’re still the worst of the lot. A team bereft of ability but worse than that organisation, passion, desire and will to win. We have nothing. Fox will start next week. O ware will be marshalling the defence. Dunfermline will won by 2 or 3 next week and that will be that.

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I'm not a huge fan of 4-4-2 but I think it is formation that suits this team best. We played it in December and, although performances were not great, we got some decent results and looked a little bit better. 

I was happy we went with it again on Friday night and I thought we have played worse than we did in the first half. We didn't look fantastic, but we should have (and I know this is a big issue) been ahead in the game.

Lose a goal, heads go down, wheels come off and we don't play with any urgency or cohesion until 15 minutes to go. We've seen it more that once.

I'm not one that thinks the players don't care or they are not trying. Some of them are just not very good, others are massively under performing. Also, confidence is huge in any sport and this team is totally devoid of any at the moment. The only way we will get more confident is to win games and that is easier said than done. The first step is getting clean sheets and this is obviously the main problem. The defence is woeful and how Penrice and O'Ware got awarded new long term contracts is beyond me. It'll be hard to find many Thistle fans that don't want Fox replaced with Sneddon and, although O'Connor seems to be highly rated by those at Celtic Park, he looks like a wee lost boy - maybe understandable giving the circumstances and surroundings he finds himself in. I've said a few times that Saunders is probably the best at defending at the club. It's when he gets the ball at his his feet that is the problem - a key element in being a professional footballer. It was interesting though that twice on Friday night, he gave O'Ware a complete rollicking for his mistakes. Not often you see a captain taking that from another player. 

If the players in front of the defence have no confidence in them, they know they're going to have to score at least twice to win the game. We're already going out on to the park with a hill to climb and the team looks as if it is playing with fear every game. Touches and passes are poor and players look nervous from the start of every game. We all know how good Cole and Bannigan can be and the were two of the worst players on Friday night.

McCall has to put Sneddon back in to give him a chance. Keep a clean sheet or two and all of a sudden things change and confidence grows. Rudden coming back is key as, although Graham looks to be a good addition, he needs better support than Jones or Mansell can offer. I'd also give Austin a run ahead of Cardle. You can never fault Cardle's effort or work rate but it just isn't happening for him (looks as if he picked up a hamstring injury as well anyway). 

I said last week - at this stage last season, I was still confident we would stay up but this season I just can't see it. I'm not optimistic but things can change very quickly, so I'm still hoping the team can prove me wrong.

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6 hours ago, fenski said:

I was at Arbroath hospitality too. Totally agree with you. There was a really club/team feel. Everyone enjoying themselves, everyone chipping in. I felt more at home there than I do with my own team. Crossed my mind to support Arbroath for the remainder of this season.... But nah - that's what glory hunters do - I'm lumbered with this dull non-entertaing team whether I like it or not...

That’s how I felt too! Exactly. 
I will be at our hospitality for Dunfermline game for a dreary  compare and contrast. 

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