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Springburnjag

Fan Ownership Working Group

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5 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Just over 50 people turned up last night including the working group. That hardly seems like the fans are onboard with this or even want it

I don't know how I can rephrase this to make it easier to understand:

What. Is. The. Alternative?

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1000 is c. 50% of the adult fan base, that IMO is unobtainable at present. I am more than willing to give fan ownership a chance but with little or no detail being given it looks like its one mans pope dream and he is leading others on his path.  Cant see a scenario where it gets done in 90 days as I think it will be nearly impossible to put the framework in place to not only protect the club but to protect the people who will be giving their time to work on behalf of the club. 

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While having a healthy number of fans pledging support for a fan owned club is good news, and without knowing the amount of cash this would provide, I have some concerns about fan ownership.

Almost every major football club seems to have a benevolent owner who is happy to sign cheques in return for the kudos of owning a club.  They have however invariably acquired their status through business success, and have the nous to run a football club along semi-sustainable lines with the occasional cash injection. 

The exception is probably German clubs, many of whom are wholly or largely owned by fans.  Perhaps we should be examining how they are structured, financed and operated as well as looking at examples closer to home.

I'm sure our benefactor, Colin Weir has many qualities, but will need a good board of directors to run things effectively on a day to day basis (hence Jacquie Low).  That should be achievable from the fan base - we have to believe in ourselves!

However, where the fan owned model is vulnerable, is in dealing with major, neccessary capital expenditure, such as replacing the near decrepit main stand and something to adorn the bing.  Of course continuing recourse to Colin Weir for these might be possible, but I suspect that he might be more amenable to a single major investment that provides lower long run operating costs, some financial stability, and a quieter life.  (It would also avoid the BOD having to insure Colin Weir's life!!)

Such an investment would also give a good (further?) opportunity for fans to buy into the club's equity through a share issue, simultaneously giving greater fan involvement and keeping costs down by avoiding/reducing debt. 

I therefore think the Working Group needs to broaden its horizons in choosing a set up for the Club, and also has to look at the long term capital requirements for ensuring a successful Club.  We are a small club, and the objective of the Working Group has to be to set up the Club in a way that minimises and stabilises long term off-field costs.  Attention of fans and the Board can then be focussed on what matters - winning football matches.

Think widely and think long Working Groupers!

 

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Partick Thistle football club will have to be run to at the very least to break even or make a profit, if possible, based upon money generated by the club itself.

This, I believe, is how businesses are run.

Any money that is generated by pledges - no matter from how many people or how much money - will be extra money that the fans themselves, the people who have provided that money, to be spent on whatever they want. It will be a collective decision.

How precisely those decisions will be made is what the working group is there for, to figure out before March. If you want a direct say then join the working group now.

Yes, how fan owned clubs in Germany, and in Sweden, and clubs closer to home, is what we should be looking at and learning from. That is what was said last night.

Edited by West of Scotland

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32 minutes ago, West of Scotland said:

I think some people bumping their gums about where they think the club "should be" will have to have a reality check. We get less than two thousand fans through the gate at home games now, and we're no longer in a league where there are large away supports visiting Firhill. We'll have to determine what that means for a club - what our goals are, what level of player we can afford - that has to live within its means.

Apologies for extremely selective quoting. Btw you're whole post is on the button. :thumbsup2:

This bit tho' is it in a nutshell. I'm a strong advocate for larger leagues where by definition the vast majority of full time clubs would play. The clubs like ourselves would benefit from visits from clubs with decent sized away support. But there's no sign of that happening. Our attendances nowadays suggest that instead of thinking of ourselves as a top tier club who will spend the odd season in the 2nd tier, we should be considering ourselves as a 2nd tier club who'll  have the odd spell in the top tier.

Perhaps some of the negativity is driven by the belief that we as a club are vastly under performing, whereas we're under performing, true, but not greatly. If this negativity is spilling over into the question of fan ownership then the sooner the majority of fans take a reality check the better. 

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1 hour ago, West of Scotland said:

I don't know how I can rephrase this to make it easier to understand:

What. Is. The. Alternative?

That’s the problem, we have no options due to the fact  we have been led down a cul-de-sac by a handful of fans who took the huff over the board removing their friends whilst not communicating over a possible takeover due to confidentiality. 

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13 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

That’s the problem, we have no options due to the fact  we have been led down a cul-de-sac by a handful of fans who took the huff over the board removing their friends whilst not communicating over a possible takeover due to confidentiality. 

So you have  no plan other than hoping fan ownership fails 

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1 hour ago, eljaggo said:

While having a healthy number of fans pledging support for a fan owned club is good news, and without knowing the amount of cash this would provide, I have some concerns about fan ownership.

Almost every major football club seems to have a benevolent owner who is happy to sign cheques in return for the kudos of owning a club.  They have however invariably acquired their status through business success, and have the nous to run a football club along semi-sustainable lines with the occasional cash injection. 

The exception is probably German clubs, many of whom are wholly or largely owned by fans.  Perhaps we should be examining how they are structured, financed and operated as well as looking at examples closer to home.

I'm sure our benefactor, Colin Weir has many qualities, but will need a good board of directors to run things effectively on a day to day basis (hence Jacquie Low).  That should be achievable from the fan base - we have to believe in ourselves!

However, where the fan owned model is vulnerable, is in dealing with major, neccessary capital expenditure, such as replacing the near decrepit main stand and something to adorn the bing.  Of course continuing recourse to Colin Weir for these might be possible, but I suspect that he might be more amenable to a single major investment that provides lower long run operating costs, some financial stability, and a quieter life.  (It would also avoid the BOD having to insure Colin Weir's life!!)

Such an investment would also give a good (further?) opportunity for fans to buy into the club's equity through a share issue, simultaneously giving greater fan involvement and keeping costs down by avoiding/reducing debt. 

I therefore think the Working Group needs to broaden its horizons in choosing a set up for the Club, and also has to look at the long term capital requirements for ensuring a successful Club.  We are a small club, and the objective of the Working Group has to be to set up the Club in a way that minimises and stabilises long term off-field costs.  Attention of fans and the Board can then be focussed on what matters - winning football matches.

Think widely and think long Working Groupers!

 

Great post, but the first sentence is something we have yet to even come near to

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4 minutes ago, javeajag said:

So you have  no plan other than hoping fan ownership fails 

Why should I have a plan?

I never (and majority of fans) wanted this, so why should I come up with a plan?

TFE have been running around this for 4 months, surely Paul Goodwin has a plan with 12 weeks to go!

He’s been through this before with Stirling, Dundee & Portsmouth, what has that taught him, he champions himself as the fan ownership guru, yet by all accounts last night he had no answers of substance 

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2 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Always negative 

That’s a truthful statement I made, 270 enquiries is less than 10% of our support that’s not a healthy buy in by any stretch of your imagination 

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8 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Why should I have a plan?

I never (and majority of fans) wanted this, so why should I come up with a plan?

TFE have been running around this for 4 months, surely Paul Goodwin has a plan with 12 weeks to go!

He’s been through this before with Stirling, Dundee & Portsmouth, what has that taught him, he champions himself as the fan ownership guru, yet by all accounts last night he had no answers of substance 

Ok you have nothing positive to offer 

you have no idea and neither do I if the majority want fan ownership or not but your determined to undermine it at every turn

Edited by javeajag

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2 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

That’s a truthful statement I made, 270 enquiries is less than 10% of our support that’s not a healthy buy in by any stretch of your imagination 

As was mine your always negative 

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3 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Ok you have nothing positive to offer 

you have no idea and neither do I if the majority want fan ownership or not but your determined to u deeming it at every turn

Simple maths

We have a core support of 2500 to 3000 fans

TFE had a sign up of ca 270 fans

Thats really roughly 10%  interested

That means by definition 90% aren’t 

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33 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

That’s the problem, we have no options due to the fact  we have been led down a cul-de-sac by a handful of fans who took the huff over the board removing their friends whilst not communicating over a possible takeover due to confidentiality. 

We are where we are because a group of shareholders wanted to sell their shares.

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6 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Simple maths

We have a core support of 2500 to 3000 fans

TFE had a sign up of ca 270 fans

Thats really roughly 10%  interested

That means by definition 90% aren’t 

No it doesn’t behave yourself .....we will know fan interest when the official scheme is launched and we see take up....

always negative 

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7 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Why should I have a plan?

I never (and majority of fans) wanted this, so why should I come up with a plan?

TFE have been running around this for 4 months, surely Paul Goodwin has a plan with 12 weeks to go!

He’s been through this before with Stirling, Dundee & Portsmouth, what has that taught him, he champions himself as the fan ownership guru, yet by all accounts last night he had no answers of substance 

 

Why should you have a plan? Because you're a fan, and I hope that means you want the club to survive and succeed.

You don't want this. Okay ... but please don't claim to speak for the majority of the fans.

You don't want this so make a suggestion for an alternative that we, as fans, can get behind.

Some of us are willing to listen. Some of us want to consider every option.

Some of us apparently just want to react in the negative to everything and do nothing, contribute nothing.

Do you have an idea of what should happen next?

In my opinion being fan owned is the only option - you know why? Because the majority of the shares and the owner of the ground, Colin Weir, doesn't want to own the club.

As I have already written, if you don't like the way the working group is being set up or who is involved, then join now and make your voice heard in a meaningful manner.

Not just on internet forums.

The working group is asking for people to join RIGHT NOW.

You don't like Paul Goodwin and feel he has nothing of substance to offer, then join and convince the other people involved to remove him.

Get involved.

 

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4 minutes ago, Dark Passenger said:

We are where we are because a group of shareholders wanted to sell their shares.

Correct and he’s upset because the secret plan to sell to Paul Conway was leaked and then subject to scrutiny 

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4 minutes ago, Dark Passenger said:

We are where we are because a group of shareholders wanted to sell their shares.

And a handful of supporters decided we’d like to own the club and got Mr Weir to buy it for us

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1 minute ago, Norgethistle said:

And a handful of supporters decided we’d like to own the club and got Mr Weir to buy it for us

They produced an option as a clear majority of fans did want your secret consortium deal to go through 

always negative 

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22 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Simple maths

We have a core support of 2500 to 3000 fans

TFE had a sign up of ca 270 fans

Thats really roughly 10%  interested

That means by definition 90% aren’t 

I don't agree with that, Norge. But I can only speak for roughly 0.037% of the core support.

Edited by lady-isobel-barnett
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1 minute ago, Norgethistle said:

And a handful of supporters decided we’d like to own the club and got Mr Weir to buy it for us

No.

A group of shareholders wanted to sell their shares.

They apparently had a plan to sell it to a consortium of foreign investors.

That failed, for whatever reason, so they had to look for an alternative.

That alternative was Colin Weir, who seems to have been persuaded by the argument of fan ownership to make his investment.

The selling shareholders had a choice. Stay and look for alternative methods of investment or sell to Colin Weir.

They sold.

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