allyo Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 51 minutes ago, javeajag said: The herald don’t say what the missing sentence is so I’m nit sure what point they are making....they do assert the pdf attachment didn’t get past the firewall as the big pin in the conspiracy balloon.....so we are to believe... 1. the Dundee pdf did indeed get stuck in the firewall 2. no other club voted using a pdf 3. if another club did use a pdf it got through it’s utterly ludicrous The coincidence of the only vote that didn't get through being one of only three that could block the resolution (and it turns out, the one with greatest potential to change), and of that club quickly making requests to withhold their vote... The resolution itself is questionable but possibly based on valid reasons. But the process is shambolic and looks incredibly dodgy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colognejag Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, jaf said: There's also another rumour going round about his motivations in all of this. The one from the CelticStar that the ICT chairman is getting a job at Rangers? Yep, sounds very trustworthy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 I can think of 2 good reasons for John Nelmes not to change his vote .... He will have Ms Low rabbiting at him in one ear and Ms Budge in the other. He can quickly stop the pain by resubmitting the NO vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaty FC Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, CrimeWriterJag said: How about this for a plot? Dundee hold out their vote/non-vote as long as possible. Rangers go bust again, but given past performance are allowed to join League Two again. Hearts still relegated due to annoying the SPFL and Dundee prompted for getting Doncaster out of a hole. SPFL forget to relegate Thistle and Stranraer and everyone lives happily ever after. Written by Hugh Dunnett?... I'll get my coat! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 13 hours ago, Auld Jag said: Just how much money are we talking about. The Forfar chairman said they were due £3,700, are clubs really going under waiting in that little money. I do realise other clubs will be due much more. Going back to Forfar chairman, my take on his yes vote was because he wanted to keep Falkirk in league 1 and get Thistle also in this league as it could be worth £75,000-£100,000 for his team. I know Ross. He's a good guy. Firstly £3700 is more money than Forfar had in their bank at the end of either of the last two seasons despite issuing shares. So you bet, whatever may be said publicly, it is a significant amount to a club like that. Secondly, I didn't hear his comments, but understand he meant that no planning could be done for next season until the other teams in the league were known as the financial assumptions for the budgets would be very different if Thistle and Falkirk were in the league compared to Edinburgh City, Stranraer and Cove, and so he wanted for the vote to happen to bring certainty to an uncertain situation. Clearly from those who have heard it, he didn't come across well nor make his intended point well though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, jaf said: Secondly, I didn't hear his comments, but understand he meant that no planning could be done for next season until the other teams in the league were known as the financial assumptions for the budgets would be very different if Thistle and Falkirk were in the league compared to Edinburgh City, Stranraer and Cove, and so he wanted for the vote to happen to bring certainty to an uncertain situation. That's pretty much what he said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 29 minutes ago, jaf said: I know Ross. He's a good guy. Firstly £3700 is more money than Forfar had in their bank at the end of either of the last two seasons despite issuing shares. So you bet, whatever may be said publicly, it is a significant amount to a club like that. Secondly, I didn't hear his comments, but understand he meant that no planning could be done for next season until the other teams in the league were known as the financial assumptions for the budgets would be very different if Thistle and Falkirk were in the league compared to Edinburgh City, Stranraer and Cove, and so he wanted for the vote to happen to bring certainty to an uncertain situation. Clearly from those who have heard it, he didn't come across well nor make his intended point well though. Didn’t really understand where he got that figure from as 9th place in the 1st division get 70k , thought prize money only got paid out when the season was finished ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagtastic Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 The idea that a pdf attachment being sent to an organisation that must receive hundreds of emails each week across their business operations would be caught in a firewall, purely because it's a pdf is far fetched to say the least. It is a standard format for sending documents, if receiving them was causing an issue in their system the SPFL would have been missing important things on a regular basis. Even if the ballot was sent out as, for example, an editable word document, you would have to print and sign it before scanning it back as an image file or pdf. But yeah, it could just be this one particular pdf containing the decisive vote which was stopped. Desperate stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, jlsarmy said: Didn’t really understand where he got that figure from as 9th place in the 1st division get 70k , thought prize money only got paid out when the season was finished ? I think it is paid out by instalment. We are only talking about the final instalment to be paid. Edited April 13, 2020 by jaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emsca Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 hours ago, jaf said: There is a difference between publicly telling people you are taking an action because of concerns about solvency, and what your accounts say. Perhaps you think being a director of an insolvent entity is a triviality. A perfect example of this would be RBS, as soon as confidence was lost, it caused a domino impact onto the solvency of the business. Anyway, I am just trying to provide context instead of all the gleeful conspiracy theories. We are dealing in 'least bad' outcomes now, that's for sure. But I've got work to do, so will go and do that so you can have the floor again to peddle your stuff without challenge...…………... You seem awful willing to give the SPFL lots of credibility and justification. If I was going into a negotiation with an organisation, I would have a look at there accounts if I thought that might give me a negotiating advantage. If they are technically insolvent , are they allowed to keep trading? Which form of accountants signed off their accounts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, jaf said: I think it is paid out by instalment. We are only talking about the final instalment to be paid. Don’t think that’s right , it would be too complex to do it that way as obviously you don’t where you’ll finish in the league, that would mean Forfar would have been over paid roughly 15k over the season if your taking it as 1/4 ly payments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, Emsca said: You seem awful willing to give the SPFL lots of credibility and justification. If I was going into a negotiation with an organisation, I would have a look at there accounts if I thought that might give me a negotiating advantage. If they are technically insolvent , are they allowed to keep trading? Which form of accountants signed off their accounts? Not sure if they are insolvent as such , possibly there has been debt carried forward from previous years . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West of Scotland Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said: I can think of 2 good reasons for John Nelmes not to change his vote .... He will have Ms Low rabbiting at him in one ear and Ms Budge in the other. He can quickly stop the pain by resubmitting the NO vote. Haha, wimmin am I right lads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milhouse Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Why would you have any need to send a message saying "please don't count our vote" if you hadn't sent in any vote? Dundee have known that their 'No' vote was cast and were trying, in a very devious way, to seize an opportunity. This all needs an independent group of lawyers to go through the timeline of events. Which is what Sevco seem to have suggested - and they are right. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Emsca said: You seem awful willing to give the SPFL lots of credibility and justification. If I was going into a negotiation with an organisation, I would have a look at there accounts if I thought that might give me a negotiating advantage. If they are technically insolvent , are they allowed to keep trading? Which form of accountants signed off their accounts? Their accounts are on Companies House. You can look yourself. They have an excess of liabilities over assets. Companies with excess of liabilities over assets continue to trade all the time in normal circumstances where the going concern presumption is valid. If they do not have going concern, for example if revenue dried up for one exceptional reason or another, if they ingathered all the money due in, and tried to pay out all the money due out, there would be a shortfall. That is why they are technically insolvent. What their auditors have done is considered whether in the 12 months that follow the signing of last years accounts will they be able to continue as a going concern. And the answer here is yes, because you cannot sign audit reports on the assumption that a disease that kills people and shuts down the global economy will come form nowhere, otherwise all audit reports would be qualified and what would be the point in that?! As for me, I am only trying to provide context to the actions of the board of directors of SPFL. I can't stand Doncaster and think he should have gone a long time ago. I also think the SPFL has not been fit for purpose for a long time. But I also think the Rangers/Hearts attacks on them are a little unfair on this occasion. Edited April 13, 2020 by jaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiledjag Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said: Pity in a way yon petition was started by a Rangers fan. It would carry so much more weight had it been initiated by a fan of a club of a more neutral persuasion. Even so it's just surpassed the 20000 mark. Like a Partick Thistle fan! (only joking)! Agree with your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMCF Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, West of Scotland said: Haha, wimmin am I right lads? This comment was sent in the 1950's and has only just arrived at weareetc. Fully expect a follow up requesting that it be ignored in the mode of the current era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiledjag Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Have been catching up by scanning through last couple of pages of posts and wonder if I have missed something! I see (Daily Record) a report that SPFL are planning to hold an emergency meeting, probably within next 24 hours in response to: 1 The :Civil War' within Scottish Football that has broken out over the weekend 2. The petition to remove Doncaster 3. The Dundee vote(??) The article states the SPFL is seeking legal advice about whether or not prize money can be paid out without declaring the season ended and if they can also avoid declaring a) champions in each division and b) enforcing relegation. Hope my summary is accurate. Possible Nelmes at Dundee might deserve some credit here as Dundee's delay in declaring their position has (notwithstanding all the other stuff) put considerable pressure on SPFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 hours ago, jaf said: I know Ross. He's a good guy. Firstly £3700 is more money than Forfar had in their bank at the end of either of the last two seasons despite issuing shares. So you bet, whatever may be said publicly, it is a significant amount to a club like that. Secondly, I didn't hear his comments, but understand he meant that no planning could be done for next season until the other teams in the league were known as the financial assumptions for the budgets would be very different if Thistle and Falkirk were in the league compared to Edinburgh City, Stranraer and Cove, and so he wanted for the vote to happen to bring certainty to an uncertain situation. Clearly from those who have heard it, he didn't come across well nor make his intended point well though. Sorry Jaf who was the Ross you were referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thru thin and thin Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just noticed that the top clubs in the German League have donated 20 million euros into a ' solidarity fund'. To be distributed to clubs who are financially struggling within the lower divisions. They feel they have an obligation to the game as a whole! Wouldn't something similar save face for the SPFL, the bigot brothers and others who are throwing accusations all over the place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Third Lanark said: Sorry Jaf who was the Ross you were referring to? Ross Graham, the Forfar chairman. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, thru thin and thin said: Just noticed that the top clubs in the German League have donated 20 million euros into a ' solidarity fund'. To be distributed to clubs who are financially struggling within the lower divisions. They feel they have an obligation to the game as a whole! Wouldn't something similar save face for the SPFL, the bigot brothers and others who are throwing accusations all over the place? This is to my mind one of the benefits of fan/community ownership, an understanding that there is a community, which is all the clubs, which means self interest is mitigated slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emsca Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 hours ago, jaf said: Their accounts are on Companies House. You can look yourself. They have an excess of liabilities over assets. Companies with excess of liabilities over assets continue to trade all the time in normal circumstances where the going concern presumption is valid. If they do not have going concern, for example if revenue dried up for one exceptional reason or another, if they ingathered all the money due in, and tried to pay out all the money due out, there would be a shortfall. That is why they are technically insolvent. What their auditors have done is considered whether in the 12 months that follow the signing of last years accounts will they be able to continue as a going concern. And the answer here is yes, because you cannot sign audit reports on the assumption that a disease that kills people and shuts down the global economy will come form nowhere, otherwise all audit reports would be qualified and what would be the point in that?! As for me, I am only trying to provide context to the actions of the board of directors of SPFL. I can't stand Doncaster and think he should have gone a long time ago. I also think the SPFL has not been fit for purpose for a long time. But I also think the Rangers/Hearts attacks on them are a little unfair on this occasion. Fair enough , you clearly know much more about accounting and Company Law than I do . My point is they could easily get agreement to change the contracts to allow them to pay out the money without the season being finished . They seem desperate to link the payments to teams agreeing to declare the season wound up? Why ? It cannot be so Celtic can be declared champions because clearly it would be a qualified honour. It all just seems bizarre , but hopefully there will be an outcome which will result in Thistle staying in the Championship and Doncaster and his highly paid cronies picking up their P45’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, thru thin and thin said: Just noticed that the top clubs in the German League have donated 20 million euros into a ' solidarity fund'. To be distributed to clubs who are financially struggling within the lower divisions. They feel they have an obligation to the game as a whole! Wouldn't something similar save face for the SPFL, the bigot brothers and others who are throwing accusations all over the place? I’m not sure that there is as much spare cash floating around in the SPL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javeajag Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said: I’m not sure that there is as much spare cash floating around in the SPL Celtic had £35m in the bank before the lockdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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