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What if they shut down the season?


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27 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Maybe not in Scotland, but this is a global crisis. As I said Bolton would have an issue if points penalties are waivedfor another club, especially one in the UK. Whatever we do with the current season, we need to do the same as every other league or we will risk litigation and or sanctions.

I'm under the assumption that both applying points penalties and the amount are under the jurisdiction of the SPFL. 

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40 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

Hope you are correct about Maxie! 

However I would think that although he is the Chief Executive (not sure if this title is correct) he will have to declare a conflict of interest in any discussion involving PTFC and either sit quietly and say nothing or remove himself from that part of the meeting. 

This ethical approach should also apply to any Director or CEO of any club whose position is under discussion, for example, Budge & Hearts, Ogren & Dundee Utd. 

This is why I suspect Budge got her retaliation in first by going public with the threat of legal action!  Officials participating in a  discussion in her absence and which involves Hearts will be influenced by this threat! Good tactics on her part but unethical! 

Why would Maxie have a conflict of interest? He’s an ex-employee of PTFC and now an employee of another organisation. I don’t believe he still has any association with PTFC?

Maybe others who know more about these situations than I do can advise?

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I don't see the SFA and SPL making a decision anytime soon for a couple of reasons.

First of all the SFA and SPL don't like making any decisions, they would rather UEFA told them what to do then they could blame it on them. Failing that they want the EPL to make a move so they can hide behind that.

Second of all its all about Sevco.

Sevco must be running out of cash and one of the most likely to go into administration . If Sevco go into administration before the end of the season and occur an automatic points penalty then they can award the title to Celtic as they can't be mathematically caught. Also the SFA ust know Sevco finances aren't great so if they end the season now they would have to state to UEFA that Sevco will be one Scotland's representatives in european competitions and would they be comfortable doing that when they must suspect Sevco are close to the edge? So the SFA and SPL plan will be to wait and see what happens to Sevco because that only leaves a question about if you relegate teams or not. As that doesn't involve either cheek then it'll be an easier decision for the autorities to make. If Sevco survive in their current guise until the end of the season I could see null and void being the order of the day.

The footballing authorities have past history for making up the rules if required so rules won't be an issue this time.

 

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6 hours ago, jaggy said:

Why would Maxie have a conflict of interest? He’s an ex-employee of PTFC and now an employee of another organisation. I don’t believe he still has any association with PTFC?

Maybe others who know more about these situations than I do can advise?

I had heard that when the SFA were discussing the Barnsley dual ownership thingy that Maxie had no vote. I've no idea whether that was under Maxie's initiative, normal procedure or indeed completely true. 

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8 hours ago, exiledjag said:

Hope you are correct about Maxie! 

However I would think that although he is the Chief Executive (not sure if this title is correct) he will have to declare a conflict of interest in any discussion involving PTFC and either sit quietly and say nothing or remove himself from that part of the meeting. 

This ethical approach should also apply to any Director or CEO of any club whose position is under discussion, for example, Budge & Hearts, Ogren & Dundee Utd. 

This is why I suspect Budge got her retaliation in first by going public with the threat of legal action!  Officials participating in a  discussion in her absence and which involves Hearts will be influenced by this threat! Good tactics on her part but unethical! 

As others have said don't think he has any formal association with the Jags now  bar being a supporter ( if they all had to declare a conflict on that basis it would be a pretty small meeting). Anyway whether he is actually in the meeting or not I would hope he would make the point to his colleagues that it would be manifestly unfair to relegate a team which has played less games than others in the league.

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1 hour ago, Emsca said:

As others have said don't think he has any formal association with the Jags now  bar being a supporter ( if they all had to declare a conflict on that basis it would be a pretty small meeting). Anyway whether he is actually in the meeting or not I would hope he would make the point to his colleagues that it would be manifestly unfair to relegate a team which has played less games than others in the league.

I am sure there has been a number  of video conferences  between all the leagues.  I would hope Thistle have pointed out the fact we have played a game less than QOS and no way we would accept being relegated under those circumstances.

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8 hours ago, laukat said:

I don't see the SFA and SPL making a decision anytime soon for a couple of reasons.

First of all the SFA and SPL don't like making any decisions, they would rather UEFA told them what to do then they could blame it on them. Failing that they want the EPL to make a move so they can hide behind that.

Second of all its all about Sevco.

Sevco must be running out of cash and one of the most likely to go into administration . If Sevco go into administration before the end of the season and occur an automatic points penalty then they can award the title to Celtic as they can't be mathematically caught. Also the SFA ust know Sevco finances aren't great so if they end the season now they would have to state to UEFA that Sevco will be one Scotland's representatives in european competitions and would they be comfortable doing that when they must suspect Sevco are close to the edge? So the SFA and SPL plan will be to wait and see what happens to Sevco because that only leaves a question about if you relegate teams or not. As that doesn't involve either cheek then it'll be an easier decision for the autorities to make. If Sevco survive in their current guise until the end of the season I could see null and void being the order of the day.

The footballing authorities have past history for making up the rules if required so rules won't be an issue this time.

 

Is it just me sitting smiling at the thought of them being put in the lowest division again?

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On 4/5/2020 at 8:08 PM, Auld Jag said:

I know Neil McCann has not been everybody's cup off tea on this forum, but on radio Scotland i have heard him say on at least 3 occasions it would be wrong to relegate Thistle as we have 1 game in hand and if we won it we would come of the bottom of the league.

I don't really agree with that. You could calculate average points per game and we'd still be bottom.

Personally I think the season should be played to an end. Whenever that is. It becomes difficult if football comes back on in November. It becomes easier if it doesn't start up til say next February when you'd have lost a straight calendar year. I know people will argue about squads being different, but it's the club that gets promoted/relegated, not the team, so I don't have any issues with that.

Failing that, awarding places based on current points average seems like the most logical way.

But to be honest I think the whole thing is getting ahead of ourselves. I'm just hopeful that Thistle and all the other clubs are still around.

(eta: Maybe with the odd exception, mentioned above...:head_ball:)

Edited by allyo
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17 hours ago, laukat said:

Failing that they want the EPL to make a move so they can hide behind that.

What happens in England matters, on the evidence of what happened when football stopped. The Scottish Government had announced that mass gatherings would be banned from Monday 16 March, which was widely seen as giving the green light for the Old Firm match on the Sunday, and the round of fixtures on the Saturday, including a winnable home game for Thistle against Alloa. In England the situation was the same, with the Premier League announcing that the weekend fixtures would go ahead. But the EPL was spooked by the news on the Thursday morning that Arsenal manager Mikel Arteta and Chelsea player Callum Hudson-Odoi had tested positive for coronavirus, the virus having spread more quickly in London than elsewhere. They pulled the plug on the weekend that morning. The SPFL felt obliged to follow suit, thus depriving Thistle of a possible opportunity to get off the bottom of the league before the music stopped.

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This doesn't look like the standard football club response https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52192550

Defferring wages is a really odd thing to do when the government furlough scheme should allow you to cover 80% of wages. I suspect Sevco are in a really bad way and effectively doing a stealth administration whilst publically saying its down to Corona virus.

When they can't pay the deferred wages the playing staff will be allowed to leave for £0 and hey presto, sevco have done most of the bad parts of administration but avoided the public declaration which would incur a points penalty and perhaps worse.

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26 minutes ago, laukat said:

This doesn't look like the standard football club response https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52192550

Defferring wages is a really odd thing to do when the government furlough scheme should allow you to cover 80% of wages. I suspect Sevco are in a really bad way and effectively doing a stealth administration whilst publically saying its down to Corona virus.

When they can't pay the deferred wages the playing staff will be allowed to leave for £0 and hey presto, sevco have done most of the bad parts of administration but avoided the public declaration which would incur a points penalty and perhaps worse.

Only up to £2500 though. 

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13 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

I am sure there has been a number  of video conferences  between all the leagues.  I would hope Thistle have pointed out the fact we have played a game less than QOS and no way we would accept being relegated under those circumstances.

They better have; I do not want to see our club meekly accept a totally unfair relegation decision just because we're nice guys.

Every other club will be doing or voting for what is in their own interest above all other considerations, we should do the same.

They have stabbed us in the back before and will not hesitate to do so again, the board better be ready to fight for us.

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3 minutes ago, Alan Murray said:

Only up to £2500 though. 

Yip, which is even more of an alarm bell for Sevco supporters.

They are stating that the reason for the wage defferal is to ensure all non-first team staff get their wages in full. If we assume all non first team staff on average are paid enough to get the maximum furlough payment then Sevco are struggling to find £625 per employee per month and pay the first team.

If we assume the first team squad including management is on an average wage of £5k per week and thats about 25 people then each month they are deferring £500k per month. If thats being done to pay the non-first team squad their wages then Sevco must have 800 employees who are not part of their first team. I would be amazed if they directly employed anything like that number.So to me it looks like they have deffered the wages as they could never afford the first team wages.

Deffering gives them the option of delaying full administration to the summer then only paying the first team squad a small percentage of the deffered amount. Their first team squad will be allowed to leave and they will need to replace with cheaper alternatives who won't be able to complete with Celtic.

How does that effect Thistle? In my opinion Sevco now need the season to be declared complete and current positions honoured before July. If its still unsettled by then they will suffer a points penalty and might not be eligible for European competition. If Celtic are declared winners before July, Sevco get 2nd place and a european spot. If Uefa declare the season is over and current placings stand Sevco get a champions league slot which looks like the only financial way out of another liquidation.

So as much as Sevco will publically campaign for Null and Void behind closed doors they will want current standings to be honoured. Hearts, Thistle etc will be deemed expendible to the SFA to ensure no repeat of 2012.

 

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20 hours ago, laukat said:

I don't see the SFA and SPL making a decision anytime soon for a couple of reasons.

First of all the SFA and SPL don't like making any decisions, they would rather UEFA told them what to do then they could blame it on them. Failing that they want the EPL to make a move so they can hide behind that.

Second of all its all about Sevco.

Sevco must be running out of cash and one of the most likely to go into administration . If Sevco go into administration before the end of the season and occur an automatic points penalty then they can award the title to Celtic as they can't be mathematically caught. Also the SFA ust know Sevco finances aren't great so if they end the season now they would have to state to UEFA that Sevco will be one Scotland's representatives in european competitions and would they be comfortable doing that when they must suspect Sevco are close to the edge? So the SFA and SPL plan will be to wait and see what happens to Sevco because that only leaves a question about if you relegate teams or not. As that doesn't involve either cheek then it'll be an easier decision for the autorities to make. If Sevco survive in their current guise until the end of the season I could see null and void being the order of the day.

The footballing authorities have past history for making up the rules if required so rules won't be an issue this time.

 

Sevco? Wrong erse-cheek. It's Celtic they are frightened of.  But , tbf, they are on a lose-lose whatever decision they make, if they have to make one. 

Gone are the days when the SFA or SPFL were run by masons.

 

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1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I see nothing to smile about in the country's current predicament. Those who do aught to have a good look at themselves.

This is a football Forum. If Sevco went into Administration I would find it very very  funny.

That does not mean I find the Covid situation funny in the slightest.

The two things are vastly different.

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4 hours ago, allyo said:

I don't really agree with that. You could calculate average points per game and we'd still be bottom.

Personally I think the season should be played to an end. Whenever that is. It becomes difficult if football comes back on in November. It becomes easier if it doesn't start up til say next February when you'd have lost a straight calendar year. I know people will argue about squads being different, but it's the club that gets promoted/relegated, not the team, so I don't have any issues with that.

Failing that, awarding places based on current points average seems like the most logical way.

But to be honest I think the whole thing is getting ahead of ourselves. I'm just hopeful that Thistle and all the other clubs are still around.

(eta: Maybe with the odd exception, mentioned above...:head_ball:)

I agree with your entire post , with a tweak, you need to take 'average home points' and 'average away points' to square up any mismatch of matches played - I have done the maths and sadly we still end up bottom given our pitiful home form.

I think that's where we may end - the null and void option just seems to have too many issues, as does reconstruction. I think Hearts will be bought off.

As for people commenting on how winnable the Alloa at home game was , I would remind you that we are 9th in the home league form over the last 6 games; Alloa are 3rd in the away league form over the same period.

 

 

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3 hours ago, laukat said:

They are stating that the reason for the wage defferal is to ensure all non-first team staff get their wages in full. If we assume all non first team staff on average are paid enough to get the maximum furlough payment then Sevco are struggling to find £625 per employee per month and pay the first team.

 

I don't understand where you get the £625 per employee per month figure from. The furlough payment is 80% of salary upto  £2500 per month, so £625 per employee per month is the MINIMUM that they would have to find per employee per month. Many of the employees will be way over that threshold (£37,500 pa) so the amount that they would have to find is likely to be far higher. There are also likely to be many employees on much less than that.

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3 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I don't understand where you get the £625 per employee per month figure from. The furlough payment is 80% of salary upto  £2500 per month, so £625 per employee per month is the MINIMUM that they would have to find per employee per month. Many of the employees will be way over that threshold (£37,500 pa) so the amount that they would have to find is likely to be far higher. There are also likely to be many employees on much less than that.

Agree - I was just using that figure as an average. As you say some will over and some will earn under. The main point was that the amount being deffered is at odds with the idea that its just needed to do the right thing by the non-first team staff. Its clearly needed for other reasons.

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Not sure I'd fancy a one off game to even up the fixtures either.  It's been a terrible season all round and playing it to a close (whenever we can) is my preferred option followed by everything null and void and restart. 

Expanding the leagues is also a good shout but almost impossible due to how it could affect the ugly sisters and those who feed off their games.  Visiting and inviting them round to your place once a year should be more than enough for most folk!

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5 hours ago, delurker said:

They better have; I do not want to see our club meekly accept a totally unfair relegation decision just because we're nice guys.

Every other club will be doing or voting for what is in their own interest above all other considerations, we should do the same.

They have stabbed us in the back before and will not hesitate to do so again, the board better be ready to fight for us.

Fight? What with? If they want to relegate us, they will and we will lump it.

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