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Jordanhill Jag

Why are we in this Position

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14 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Bringing young hungry players to 1st team is different from funding an academy at this time

correct - James Craigen being a perfect example - going further back Dools & Erskine  

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Not that several of the last few posts have not been interesting but are we not wandering in to solution finding mode when the original question was trying to establish the reason for our current situation?

As I have a lot of time for the guys who have been looking ahead and so their thoughts/ideas don't get lost in a topic not everyone might look at (no offence JJ) might it not be better to have a "How We Move Forward" thread where that can be discussed and leave this one for how we got here?

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1 minute ago, Fawlty Towers said:

Not that several of the last few posts have not been interesting but are we not wandering in to solution finding mode when the original question was trying to establish the reason for our current situation?

As I have a lot of time for the guys who have been looking ahead and so their thoughts/ideas don't get lost in a topic not everyone might look at (no offence JJ) might it not be better to have a "How We Move Forward" thread where that can be discussed and leave this one for how we got here?

Before you can work out a fix, you need to establish the cause.

Otherwise you are performing surgery without knowing the ailment 

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5 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Before you can work out a fix, you need to establish the cause.

Otherwise you are performing surgery without knowing the ailment 

I agree but, unless I have misinterpreted the original post, this thread in purely about establishing the cause not working out fixes.

I was also not trying to shut discussion down on this thread but thought that if this one was left purely for working out the cause(s) and there was another purely for discussing the best way forward it would help to avoid good ideas being missed.

As for how to proceed if you don't know the ailment, do what my doctor prescribes - leeches (I must remember to ask him what year he qualified as he is rather old).

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Blame McCall, Caldwell, Archibald for the shite they have served up and some shocking signings. various boards Low,Beattie for terrible decisions....simple really..now lets move on.

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Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I’d say we are in this position due to a mix of our inability to spot young talent and maybe just a lack of identity.

The talent that’s gone out the door in the last 5 years or so (Dools, Erskine, Nisbet, O’Donnell, Taylor-Sinclair, etc) hasn’t really been replicated and neither has the unified team feel from the promotion season when you had young, hungry players who visibly believed in themselves and each other.  Kids v Experience - the idea that we are outsiders and nobody believes in us, but us (but that’s all we need).  I haven’t really felt like that as a fan in some time. When you keep losing and no one has any answers, chemistry is often part of it.  With Dools and Erskine, you had two pros that embodied the club and personified our identity - we’re a smallish club punching above our weight in a large city (in possibly the dumbest football league).  I don’t think we’ve since had such players who personify the team in the same way.

In the time since I think we’ve made some dodgy decisions with management, lack of consistency with the first team, and at board level (e.g. those monthly comms) that’s all come together to leave us feeling “So who are we, again?”  Every season lately has felt like a rebuild and we can’t get out of first gear.

Given recent league developments, I’d like the club to  try re-establishing a bit of that outsider, “us against the world” mentality, both on the pitch and off.  We have a toothless yellow sun for a mascot, after all.  We are, on some level, a club for weirdos and outsiders by design.

And maybe with this relegation McCall 2.0 will unearth some gems and the cycle will stop.

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The main reason we are in this position is the acceptance of failure, mediocrity and amateurism.

The boards have done it, and we as fans have too.

“Don't boo the players they have feelings”

”Don’t blame Jacqui she really loves the club”

“We don’t want investors we to be community owned”

 

We aspire to be nothing, so we accept achieving nothing.

 

Until boards and the team realize were meant to be  in it to win it at any cost we are a social club, a PR story, a soft touch,  not a professional football club.


 

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13 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

The main reason we are in this position is the acceptance of failure, mediocrity and amateurism.

The boards have done it, and we as fans have too.

“Don't boo the players they have feelings”

”Don’t blame Jacqui she really loves the club”

“We don’t want investors we to be community owned”

 

We aspire to be nothing, so we accept achieving nothing.

 

Until boards and the team realize were meant to be  in it to win it at any cost we are a social club, a PR story, a soft touch,  not a professional football club.


 

You forgot to add dont sack archie he got us top 6,he's a legend,should have been punted after killie game at firhill when we lost 2-0. To many people gave Beattie and him an easy time when it was clear we neede change..

What followed with Caldwell was another cluster****.

As i said time to move on.

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46 minutes ago, ChiThistle said:

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I’d say we are in this position due to a mix of our inability to spot young talent and maybe just a lack of identity.

The talent that’s gone out the door in the last 5 years or so (Dools, Erskine, Nisbet, O’Donnell, Taylor-Sinclair, etc) hasn’t really been replicated and neither has the unified team feel from the promotion season when you had young, hungry players who visibly believed in themselves and each other.  Kids v Experience - the idea that we are outsiders and nobody believes in us, but us (but that’s all we need).  I haven’t really felt like that as a fan in some time. When you keep losing and no one has any answers, chemistry is often part of it.  With Dools and Erskine, you had two pros that embodied the club and personified our identity - we’re a smallish club punching above our weight in a large city (in possibly the dumbest football league).  I don’t think we’ve since had such players who personify the team in the same way.

In the time since I think we’ve made some dodgy decisions with management, lack of consistency with the first team, and at board level (e.g. those monthly comms) that’s all come together to leave us feeling “So who are we, again?”  Every season lately has felt like a rebuild and we can’t get out of first gear.

Given recent league developments, I’d like the club to  try re-establishing a bit of that outsider, “us against the world” mentality, both on the pitch and off.  We have a toothless yellow sun for a mascot, after all.  We are, on some level, a club for weirdos and outsiders by design.

And maybe with this relegation McCall 2.0 will unearth some gems and the cycle will stop.

The loss of Erskine & Dools, and the values they represented, was a big one. But then Caldwell felt threatened by them; that said more about his shortcomings. 

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18 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said:

You forgot to add dont sack archie he got us top 6,he's a legend,should have been punted after killie game at firhill when we lost 2-0. To many people gave Beattie and him an easy time when it was clear we neede change..

What followed with Caldwell was another cluster****.

As i said time to move on.

That was again accepting mediocrity.

Our fan base is aging and dwindling, we don’t encourage new fans by being nice, by wee initiatives. You get them in by winning, and putting Partick Thistle first above every other club. 

why would anyone who’s not already a fan, go to Firhill because we’re “Nice” or because we have a kids team or rainbow stripes, they go because there’s a chance the club is going places, competing, showing some bloody ambition 

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5 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The blame always lies with the Manager - but the vast majority of Fans were delighted with his appiontment he was in a Promotion chasing spot with Ayr United - did he suddenly become a bad Manager overnight ?  

We were already in a downward spiral before him - so your right - our current position is with the current Manager - but thats been part of a long slow process - it didnt happen overnight 

However Im glad to see however that your in agreement that this a a PTFC problem - not an SPFL problem  

  

There is a basic problem here ....you might be right IF the season had completed but it didn’t .....only two leagues in Europe have relegated teams us and France and in France the govt is taking the French football to court to stop it .....you can’t speculate on football outcomes or are we going to decide that after 28 games into a season someone says x team have been dreadful all season they should be relegated .....you can’t predict the future that’s why we play games ....I well remember sitting in O’ Leary’s in Gothenburg years ago watching  Carlos Tevez keep West  Ham up on the last game of the season against all odds and that’s how football should be decided on the park not  in your opinion 

Edited by javeajag
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1 hour ago, Whitelees jag said:

You forgot to add dont sack archie he got us top 6,he's a legend,should have been punted after killie game at firhill when we lost 2-0. To many people gave Beattie and him an easy time when it was clear we neede change..

What followed with Caldwell was another cluster****.

As i said time to move on.

He should have been sacked in the 4-0 away defeat at Ross County in the February and we might have stayed up 

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Focus has got to turn to reality.  We are responsible for our own demise - but we were given a cruel kick in the backside.

I don't know how all the teams will survive the next few months - possibly longer.  I hope I am wrong.

I just look forward to us being back on a pitch (grass) facing another 11.

 

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1 hour ago, Norgethistle said:

That was again accepting mediocrity.

Our fan base is aging and dwindling, we don’t encourage new fans by being nice, by wee initiatives. You get them in by winning, and putting Partick Thistle first above every other club. 

why would anyone who’s not already a fan, go to Firhill because we’re “Nice” or because we have a kids team or rainbow stripes, they go because there’s a chance the club is going places, competing, showing some bloody ambition 

We haven't been winning games on a weekly basis since we got promoted. Since the top  6 was achieved we have lost game after game 

Remember the shouts from our club when we made top 6,other clubs cant plan we can. we can get signings in other clubs dont know what league they will be in. that particular window was  shambles.

Beattie and Maxi must take a share of the blame for that window not just archie.

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24 minutes ago, javeajag said:

He should have been sacked in the 4-0 away defeat at Ross County in the February and we might have stayed up 

He should have went after Kilmarnock (bottom of league and just appointed Clarke) destroyed us at Firhill. But we’d put him on a plinth. He was the kid that became captain then managed us to promotion, then to too 6.. Folk had stated they’d rather go down with him in charge than stay up without. 

That is not only accepting failure, it’s welcoming it.

We take ex players and have them run the club with no experience of running a business, but because they wore the jersey the nepotism is accepted and embraced.

We employ a manager who’s recent track record shouldn’t get him a gig with a youth club, based solely on a presentation then put out wrong statements regarding his previous employer which has to be retracted. That’s amateurish but it goes unpunished.

We state we will do one thing then do the opposite (Celtic tickets, Legal advice, Promotion is still the goal when bottom in February), this in any other business would have repercussions, but not in our cosy clique.

I cannot think of another club bar the rattling battling dandy ole Jags where this would happen.

And we wonder why (some) players don’t seem to give a toss.

 

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As one of maybe half a dozen clubs in the whole of Europe that has been totally screwed on this, I can't believe there are Thistle fans arguing that it's all our own fault, today of all days.

Yes, we've had out problems and we have to address them. And yes, we put ourselves in a vulnerable position by being bottom when it was all shut down. But I suspect only Thistle fans would turn the injustice of relegation in an unfinished season in on their own club.

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4 minutes ago, allyo said:

As one of maybe half a dozen clubs in the whole of Europe that has been totally screwed on this, I can't believe there are Thistle fans arguing that it's all our own fault, today of all days.

Yes, we've had out problems and we have to address them. And yes, we put ourselves in a vulnerable position by being bottom when it was all shut down. But I suspect only Thistle fans would turn the injustice of relegation in an unfinished season in on their own club.

So it’s the SPFL’s fault we nose dived from 6th one season, through 1 relegation  next season, avoided a subsequent one the following by 1 game, and were bottom of league all this season.? 
And whilst spending way more than the teams outside Dundee on both occasions.

We got ourselves in this disastrous position and all the SPFL’s handling of it does it a distraction to the shambles that’s happened at the club in under 3 years

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57 minutes ago, javeajag said:

There is a basic problem here ....you might be right IF the season had completed but it didn’t .....only two leagues in Europe have relegated teams us and France and in France the govt is taking the French football to court to stop it .....you can’t speculate on football outcomes or are we going to decide that after 28 games into a season someone says x team have been dreadful all season they should be relegated .....you can’t predict the future that’s why we play games ....I well remember sitting in O’ Leary’s in Gothenburg years ago watching  Carlos Tevez keep West  Ham up on the last game of the season against all odds and that’s how football should be decided on the park not  in your opinion 

More countries may yet follow. 

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10 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

So it’s the SPFL’s fault we nose dived from 6th one season, through 1 relegation  next season, avoided a subsequent one the following by 1 game, and were bottom of league all this season.? 
And whilst spending way more than the teams outside Dundee on both occasions.

We got ourselves in this disastrous position and all the SPFL’s handling of it does it a distraction to the shambles that’s happened at the club in under 3 years

Nope. All that is our own fault. As it was yesterday and the day before and six months ago.

However I do not accept that relegation in an unfinished season is correct. Our treatment is not a distraction, it is the biggest issue today. And I think that Thistle are absolutely right to highlight this.

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3 minutes ago, allyo said:

Nope. All that is our own fault. As it was yesterday and the day before and six months ago.

However I do not accept that relegation in an unfinished season is correct. Our treatment is not a distraction, it is the biggest issue today. And I think that Thistle are absolutely right to highlight this.

The club are correct to highlight this, and as fans we are correct to highlight the Uber-Shambles the club has had over last 3 seasons 

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9 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

The club are correct to highlight this, and as fans we are correct to highlight the Uber-Shambles the club has had over last 3 seasons 

Maybe. But today I'm more interested in the injustice. Jumping on the back of the club today just seems a bit shitty

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7 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Reading the recent Club Statement its as though our dismal record on the Park and the General Direction of the Club on Multi  Levels  over the last Few Years has nothing top do with our relegation  - We are not Victims - we are Bottom of the League - we hovered around relegation until the last day of the Season Last Year - Relegated from the Premier the Season Before - we are in the same Position this Year - therefore thats not the SPFL fault - thats Partick Thistles Fault - did anyone seriously think we were avoiding the drop this Season  if the League had played out ? 

 as a Wise Man Said -  "we are here to play Football - only problem is - we are Shite at it " 

So all the Victimhood Status - blaming the SPFL blah blah doesn't change the fact -we have dropped Two Leagues from Top Six a Four Seasons ago  ago under Three Different Managers

- so questions have to be asked - Why ?   Now there have been many changes at Board Level - but we keep failing - Why ? 

We were relegated by Ayr United to the Second Division 22 Years Ago today - in the Second Division we  had Brown McMaster -and it was post Save the Jags - lots of Goodwill - United Fanbase - everyone was 100% behind the Club - and trusted the Board who had stepped up during STJ  - a Home Crowd of 10,000  against Ayr certainly helped cushion the blow financially  starting the following Season     

Everything is about to change - Relegation and Covid 19 are a Perfect Storm  - and if the current Board dont make the harsh financial  decisions  that needs to be made - drops pretty much everything apart from 100% Focus on the First Team-   No More - Academy - Woman's Football - Thistle Trust - Social Causes  - PR Spin   - we will struggle - do we currently have a Board that turned us around - similar to Brown - Tom Hughes - Allan Cowan - Norman Springford  - Eddie Prentice - Jim Oliver - all very very experienced Businessmen - all of them  Jags Men -who understood the Club and its Fans   - we will see    

You start by taking responsibility for the position you are in - "we are here to play Football - only problem is - we are Shite at it " 

 

 

 

   

Some of the experienced businessmen and men who understood the club were not without mistakes- pretty sure some of them were there when we had to sellGary Harkins and Marc Twaddle to pay off outstanding debts to HMRC.  Those debts that were run up could have cost us our club if it was not for McCall’s acumen at ensuring we got a great price from Dundee not the boards.

some of these gentlemen were also on board when we made huge financial losses under the Britton/whyte era followed by the dick campbell fiasco when the club haemorrhaged money.  So perhaps not quite as rosy as you seem to recall I’m afraid 

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5 hours ago, sandy said:

I agree with most of what @Jordanhill Jag says. We should have never been at the bottom when the league music stopped. 

It’s been a sad slide since we achieved top 6. But we have to build things up again from the third tier. It will be a long road back. I just hope the whole fan ownership ‘plan’ helps us rather than hinders us; we genuinely miss some of the Board members who has business acumen.

But even these guys with business acumen made terrible blunders Sandy. The fact we had to sell Harkins and twaddle to stave off HMRC indicates near catastrophic decisions that got us into a position that we were even struggling to pay HMRC.  Furthermore mccall, maxwell and Donnelly all took pay cuts to help the club which They didn’t have to do.

not having a go Sandy but some of those board members could have unintentionally spelled the end of the club then, it was just luck it didn’t 

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4 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

But we have been on a downward spiral for Three Seasons - that had zero to do with the SPFL - we are in this position of our own making   

Sorry to keep quoting you but under some of the board you referred too - we were on a downward spiral for 3 years too - successive relegations.  Then a full time team struggling in the second division that had sheer luck from a deflected free kick in injury time at Peterhead to end it

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10 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

Sorry to keep quoting you but under some of the board you referred too - we were on a downward spiral for 3 years too - successive relegations.  Then a full time team struggling in the second division that had sheer luck from a deflected free kick in injury time at Peterhead to end it

All fair points well made Mat - I think the first couple of Seasons after STJ they kept us together and we would have fallen apart without them -latterly they made large errors ( and most Boards have a shelf life in Football of 5 Years Max ) 

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