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Court It Is Then


Bobbyhouston
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7 hours ago, exiledjag said:

Thank you admin a lot of sense here. However WJ could help by putting his  points of view, assessments and summaries across factually and  forcefully but with politeness, courtesy, good manners and respect for others! 

It's unfortunate that the debate around the many knowledgeable and valuable contributions from WJ was about the manner in which they were made. This, to some extent, distracted attention from the substantive content!

Forums are about opinions. Posters will disagree but surely it can't hurt to be  polite and show respect! 

Correct.....it’s the dialectic of communication......form and content ......what you say and how you say it .....

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46 minutes ago, jaf said:

I think it’s easy to say that’s not a preferred outcome. And who could disagree with that or think it’s anything but unfair.  
but you also need to articulate what the genuine reasonable alternative would be. Every alternative seems to me to have flaws. And that’s the difficulty here - someone was going to lose out. It’s terrible that it is us. But if we had won any game in 2020 it wouldn’t have been us and perhaps we would have been arguing the other way rather than wanting that particular team to face Falkirk in a play off?! 

In extraordinary times , you need leadership to get through it , reconstruction should have happened so that no Club should have duly suffered . Within the Clubs that suffered employees will have lost their jobs, that shouldn’t have happened in the middle of a global pandemic. 

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12 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

In extraordinary times , you need leadership to get through it , reconstruction should have happened so that no Club should have duly suffered . Within the Clubs that suffered employees will have lost their jobs, that shouldn’t have happened in the middle of a global pandemic. 

I don't think there was a solution where no club suffered or felt hard done by. That's my point.

12-12-10-10 probably would have been fairest in my mind, with only Hearts losing out.

I think if we were in Dundee Uniteds shoes, 14 points clear, we would not have rolled over to save a club from relegation who had not won in 2020. In those circumstances, I would have expected us to pursue promotion, just as we pursued not being relegated. Its self-interest, and how everyone acted in the whole affair. 

My point is that Budge and others are not blameless. They failed to engage, they failed at diplomacy, they failed to read the room, they failed to come up with proposals that would get over the line, they failed to set aside their own self-interest in finding a solution. And we suffer for that failure. Its not entirely about one vote on one day.

Our directors were working on the basis of protecting the interests of the company they are directors of. Rightly. Why is every other club director not permitted to do the same - when actually Company Law requires them to do so.

Anyway, there is no point of Thistle fan being against Thistle fan on this, we are all entitled to our opinions. I just think - and I accept I may be in a minority of those who post - we cannot preach #donoharm whilst wishing harm on others.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

That’s what I meant by as soon as possible!

I’m not the one pretending that all the fans thought the legal case had low to no chance of success after the fact.

Think once it went to arbitration it was never going to happen

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8 hours ago, CotterJag said:

Colin was in the team of my earliest Thistle memories.

Can't believe we got enough pens to have a penalty king.

Thanks

Cotter

Colin McAdam may have been a minor Prince but he was no Penalty King!  5 taken, 4 converted (80%).

If such a title can ever be bestowed on a player Jimmy Davidson fits the bill.   34 taken, 29 converted (85%).

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28 minutes ago, jaf said:

I don't think there was a solution where no club suffered or felt hard done by. That's my point.

12-12-10-10 probably would have been fairest in my mind, with only Hearts losing out.

I think if we were in Dundee Uniteds shoes, 14 points clear, we would not have rolled over to save a club from relegation who had not won in 2020. In those circumstances, I would have expected us to pursue promotion, just as we pursued not being relegated. Its self-interest, and how everyone acted in the whole affair. 

My point is that Budge and others are not blameless. They failed to engage, they failed at diplomacy, they failed to read the room, they failed to come up with proposals that would get over the line, they failed to set aside their own self-interest in finding a solution. And we suffer for that failure. Its not entirely about one vote on one day.

Our directors were working on the basis of protecting the interests of the company they are directors of. Rightly. Why is every other club director not permitted to do the same - when actually Company Law requires them to do so.

Anyway, there is no point of Thistle fan being against Thistle fan on this, we are all entitled to our opinions. I just think - and I accept I may be in a minority of those who post - we cannot preach #donoharm whilst wishing harm on others.

 

 

 

The problem was Anne Budge or Jaqui Lowe shouldn’t have been left to scramble for a solution .Is that not Neil Doncaster’s remit ? , the governance was absolutely shocking and Doncaster hung Anne Budge and Jaqui Lowe out to dry creating a them and us scenario between the Clubs .

Doncaster and the SPFL had a duty of care for all the Clubs, eventually the SPFL took sides to suit whatever agenda that fitted .

IMO they should have remained impartial , remembering they are employed by all the Clubs .

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4 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

In extraordinary times , you need leadership to get through it , reconstruction should have happened so that no Club should have duly suffered . Within the Clubs that suffered employees will have lost their jobs, that shouldn’t have happened in the middle of a global pandemic. 

Agree jls. Instead of the burden being shared by every league club, it has been lumped onto 3 teams. Also Falkirk, Kelty,and Brora lost out by not getting the chance of promotion they would have had if the season went to its full conclusion, also Brechin  got away with a possible relegation had the season concluded. I just hope once the SFA are finished with us we can then get on to building a team that can get us out of this league at the first time of asking.

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4 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

Agree jls. Instead of the burden being shared by every league club, it has been lumped onto 3 teams. Also Falkirk, Kelty,and Brora lost out by not getting the chance of promotion they would have had if the season went to its full conclusion, also Brechin  got away with a possible relegation had the season concluded. I just hope once the SFA are finished with us we can then get on to building a team that can get us out of this league at the first time of asking.

and Inverness, Dundee,  East Fife, Montrose, Edinburgh City, Airdrie, Elgin, Cowdenbeath, Queens Park, Dunfermline, Ayr all missed out on potential promotions (through the play offs)  as much as Falkirk, Kelty and Brora did

They have just made much less noise about it

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3 minutes ago, jaf said:

and Inverness, Dundee,  East Fife, Montrose, Edinburgh City, Airdrie, Elgin, Cowdenbeath, Queens Park, Dunfermline, Ayr all missed out on potential promotions (through the play offs)  as much as Falkirk, Kelty and Brora did

They have just made much less noise about it

The majority of these teams voted to end the season. Meaning they voted to end the season without play offs and losing any chance they had off competing in play offs.

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Just now, Auld Jag said:

The majority of these teams voted to end the season. Meaning they voted to end the season without play offs and losing any chance they had off competing in play offs.

So they didn't vote out of self interest you mean as voting that way denied them a potential promotion?

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3 hours ago, Jag36 said:

Just a small point..but wish they would stop calling it the PTH family. I've been going to games for over 30 years...but its a football club so please just call it that

I agree. And this bit of the statement "But I ask everyone associated with Thistle to never forget today. To never forget how it feels to be relegated unfairly. To never forget that there are many good decent people and clubs in Scotland who stood with us, publicly and privately – but there are some whose fear and self-interest got in the way of doing the right thing." is better left unsaid. The sooner the club drops the victim mentality and unsettled scores attitude, the better it will be for everyone.

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10 minutes ago, fenski said:

I agree. And this bit of the statement "But I ask everyone associated with Thistle to never forget today. To never forget how it feels to be relegated unfairly. To never forget that there are many good decent people and clubs in Scotland who stood with us, publicly and privately – but there are some whose fear and self-interest got in the way of doing the right thing." is better left unsaid. The sooner the club drops the victim mentality and unsettled scores attitude, the better it will be for everyone.

Agree and the 'Family' part just doesnt sit right with me. We are here to compete like every other club ,and that just softens it. By their nature football clubs and fans have a rapport but if you don't perform ultimately you will lose your job. So this 'Family' idea seems to add another dimension of almost unaccountability for failure that i don't think is right for a football club

Edited by Jag36
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4 hours ago, Jag36 said:

Just a small point..but wish they would stop calling it the PTH family. I've been going to games for over 30 years...but its a football club so please just call it that

Maybe just call us the PT dysfunctional family...…….. :frantic:

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15 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes but the present rhetoric from the Club is that we are victims - we are not - the rules have been applied fairly 

But there was no rule for what happens when the season is finished early. They had to make something up. To do that they held a vote, in which the clubs could have chosen to mitigate the damage, spread it around. And they chose not to. That was their right; they chose to load the pain on to  a few clubs rather than distribute it more evenly.

You may argue that clubs, as companies, have a duty to protect their own interests. That may be the case. However if this is strictly applied then it follows that those making the decisions which affect Scottish football cannot act in the wider interest of Scottish football.

Without making this a polarised debate, surely you can accept that there is something wrong. Not necessarily in the way that things were conducted, but in the very structure which results in decisions being made in this way.  I've always said that our only chance in court was if there had been misconduct; if the process was followed then we were always on to a loser.

However, I still think there is something very wrong with the system. And I think to say the "rules" have been applied "fairly" is a stretch.

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1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes but the present rhetoric from the Club is that we are victims - we are not - the rules have been applied fairly 

They may have been applied correctly, that doesn't mean they were fair.

However,  time to move on.

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