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Bobbyhouston

Court It Is Then

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With reference challenging the relegation decision I don't get all these comments about having already lost this case or we are unlikely to win! 

Our case has been prepared by I assume qualified, experienced people who presumably know what they are doing! 

Assuming we (PTFC & Hearts) are being guided and represented by ethical people then it is incumbent on then to tell us if we don't have a case and therefore not to waste money prosecuting a lost cause. 

The fact that a petition has been lodged tells me that there is a case to answer and the grounds on which the petition has been lodged must have been developed by our legal representatives as the best way forward! Don't forget it seems Hearts have had their QC working on this for weeks so he/she should be well briefed on all the relevant details! 

I am not a lawyer, are there any on this thread? Let's watch the  process  play out before we reach conclusions. 

We all know there are no guarantees we could well lose but we could win and get the same result as the relegated clubs in France and Belgium! I am not anticipating anything but I refuse to believe we have lost before we even start! 

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As I understand it,  David Thomson QC is leading the case for us.   If I'm right, he represented us in previous legal action, and is a highly experienced QC who has shown himself to be a friend of the club in recent weeks.

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing it was he who prepared the QC opinion we obtained in April which suggested we had a credible case, so I believe we're in good hands.

 

 

Edited by AirdrieJag

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Has the SPFL actually made any official statement regarding the status of Leagues 1 & 2 for Season 2020/21?

Surely all clubs and fans need to know the following:-

1. Is there a 'route map' back to getting these leagues up and running?

2. Will the SPFL decide when these leagues will start or is it up to the clubs?

3. If it's the clubs in each league, how many need to agree to start up?

4. How much notice is required before setting a start date and drawing up a fixture list?

I'd be arguing that unless the SPFL can guarantee right now that League 1 will take place in season 2020/21 then given the already extraordinary circumstances of our demotion, we must be accommodated in the Championship when it starts mid October.   As things stand, if League 1 doesn't happen, we're also being denied the opportunity to be promoted back to the Championship within a year.  The SPFL and Championship teams can and should resolve our Court action immediately as our reinstatement wouldn't technically be a restructure of the league.   

(Of course a resurgence of  Covid19 might blow everything out of the water but hopefully not for all our sakes).

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

I think it is important to manage expectations so that fans and the club don’t make fools of themselves.

When the fall is all that’s left how you fall matters a great deal.

calling this wrong as a fan mate.. Its time for fury and gettin right in tae them.  We have been shafted so many times and the our previous reactions have obviously been noted. No more. 

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12 hours ago, javeajag said:

Bbc sport report 

Probably based on potential loses of being relagated and staying in the lower league for say 5 years. Loses of prize money, gate revenue, sponsorship ect. "Take our medicine" as McGregor the Ross County chair said- if you accept that as a Thistle fan then good luck to you.

But im not going on this forum to pretend im a great legal mind.They have obviouisly had profesional advice there is a case here..also this case is of course going to be very public, so the idea that a QC would take it on knowing there is no case even to begin with and risk their repuatation has little merit. Im getting behind it!

Edited by Jag36

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8 hours ago, exiledjag said:

With reference challenging the relegation decision I don't get all these comments about having already lost this case or we are unlikely to win! 

Our case has been prepared by I assume qualified, experienced people who presumably know what they are doing! 

Assuming we (PTFC & Hearts) are being guided and represented by ethical people then it is incumbent on then to tell us if we don't have a case and therefore not to waste money prosecuting a lost cause. 

The fact that a petition has been lodged tells me that there is a case to answer and the grounds on which the petition has been lodged must have been developed by our legal representatives as the best way forward! Don't forget it seems Hearts have had their QC working on this for weeks so he/she should be well briefed on all the relevant details! 

I am not a lawyer, are there any on this thread? Let's watch the  process  play out before we reach conclusions. 

We all know there are no guarantees we could well lose but we could win and get the same result as the relegated clubs in France and Belgium! I am not anticipating anything but I refuse to believe we have lost before we even start! 

Well said.

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10 hours ago, exiledjag said:

With reference challenging the relegation decision I don't get all these comments about having already lost this case or we are unlikely to win! 

Our case has been prepared by I assume qualified, experienced people who presumably know what they are doing! 

Assuming we (PTFC & Hearts) are being guided and represented by ethical people then it is incumbent on then to tell us if we don't have a case and therefore not to waste money prosecuting a lost cause. 

The fact that a petition has been lodged tells me that there is a case to answer and the grounds on which the petition has been lodged must have been developed by our legal representatives as the best way forward! Don't forget it seems Hearts have had their QC working on this for weeks so he/she should be well briefed on all the relevant details! 

I am not a lawyer, are there any on this thread? Let's watch the  process  play out before we reach conclusions. 

We all know there are no guarantees we could well lose but we could win and get the same result as the relegated clubs in France and Belgium! I am not anticipating anything but I refuse to believe we have lost before we even start! 

David Winnie who works in sports law in London previously head of the sports group at Ronald Fletcher Baker here is his current bio with CDS Mayfair ......says we have a chance 

Building on a successful ten year career in the City with prominent international law firms David joined CDS to add a Sports Law expertise to the firm. David is a sports and immigration law solicitor with a diverse client base including international football players, agents and leading UK football clubs.

 

Previously, David was a professional football player, and later manager, at the highest national and international levels for many years and, as such, has a unique in-depth knowledge of the sports industry and its various stakeholders. 

David advises on a broad spectrum of sporting issues, both non-contentious and contentious. His areas of practice include providing advice and assistance on commercial agreements and regulatory matters. In addition, he has extensive experience in advising individuals and organisations in relation to sporting disputes and arbitration. In particular, he has provided advice and assistance to several high profile football players and clubs under Rule K of The Rules of the Football Association, before the Dispute Resolution Chamber of FIFA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) in Switzerland.

David also advises across the full range of business and personal immigration categories and in particular, sponsorship under the Points Based System including sportsperson visas.

 

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Thank you AirdrieJag & Javajag for this info. David Thomas QC and David Winnie QC. We seem to be in good hands. 

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Seems we are now causing some seethe amongst other clubs who, according to the Daily Record, want to expel us from senior football! So protecting your interests after what is seen as an injustice is worthy of expulsion but run up debts of nearly £100m cheat the taxpayer, the face painter, the flower arranger and be liquidated and we will bend over backwards to get you in to as high a league as possible!

Anyway delighted this is causing angst amongst some other clubs. I’d like to wish David Thompson all the very best - a highly respected friend of the Jags.  If this does nothing other than bring about the downfall of Neil Doncaster, a man who should have led his organisation through this crisis rather than fumbled his way through it, then all good and well.  
 

if his board had decided at a very early stage to say no club will be worse off and led the clubs to a solution that suited all as there was one, then he would have got a lot more sympathy from all clubs and I’m certain it would have carried - that lack of leadership and understanding is why we are where we are.

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16 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Obviously we will have to see the written cases when they are published, but this action seems to be based on a fundamentally ill-conceived notion as to what the SPFL resolution did in legal terms.

Insofar as it “changed the rules” on relegation and promotion it did so in relation to the *playoffs* (it scrapped them) and not with regard to the automatic relegation and promotion places.

The *rules* on automatic promotion and relegation were completely unaffected; only the rules about how positions were arrived at differ for automatically promoted and relegated clubs. You cannot challenge *legally* the decision to relegate based on those positions without challenging the positions themselves. By necessary implication you are rejecting the basis for awarding the championship and European places. You can’t just pick and choose which bits of the resolution should stand.

The legal complaint is therefore not that the rules were changed, but that they were changed in a way that was unfavourable to Hearts and Thistle. That’s a non starter.

This is quite separate from whether the rules, as a matter of sporting principle, ought to have been changed in that way. In my view they clearly shouldn’t. But this litigation is a terrible way to make that point.

So, a question for WJ: if Hearts and Thistle end up receiving some kind of financial compensation, and that will only happen if the unfairness is acknowledged (either in our outwith court), will you maintain that our conduct is terrible? Should we just have "taken our medicine"?

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25 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

So, a question for WJ: if Hearts and Thistle end up receiving some kind of financial compensation, and that will only happen if the unfairness is acknowledged (either in our outwith court), will you maintain that our conduct is terrible? Should we just have "taken our medicine"?

If there is an out of court settlement that does not necessarily involve an admission of wrongdoing. I will admit I was wrong if we are restored by the court to the Championship (and this isn’t subsequently and legally overturned by the SPFL voting again) or if we are awarded by a court a substantial amount in damages for a breach of an actual legal duty.

The amount we are claiming for is transparently ludicrous. £2 million? Our turnover *with parachute payment* in 2018-19 was only £3 million.

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The Daily Ranger article suggests this legal process is going to get dirty. Strap yersells in lads, it’s going to be a bumpy ride...

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my fav paragraph from the article.  :lol:

One CEO from the Championship added: “They are holding a gun to the head of Scottish football. Perhaps one of us may have to suggest to Doncaster they are kicked out of the league and Kelty Hearts and Brora are brought in.”

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8 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

If there is an out of court settlement that does not necessarily involve an admission of wrongdoing. I will admit I was wrong if we are restored by the court to the Championship (and this isn’t subsequently and legally overturned by the SPFL voting again) or if we are awarded by a court a substantial amount in damages for a breach of an actual legal duty.

The amount we are claiming for is transparently ludicrous. £2 million? Our turnover *with parachute payment* in 2018-19 was only £3 million.

Out of interest - what do you see as the more realistic compensation figure?

I would have thought our compensation would be relative to how much income we lost based on the decision of the SPFL (assuming legal success and I know thats a big if). If league 1 is mothballed we have pretty much lost all income for season 20/21 and then as a minimum have to play 21/22 in league 1 with reduced income. Whilst £2million is probably a deliberately high estimate to start a negotiation its hard to see how the lost income isn't over £1million?

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This is getting interesting, I cant imagine us and hearts being kicked out the league. Hearts are too big for that( if it was just us I could see this happening) and how would the SPFL justify such a decision. "We are going to relegate you and if you complain we are going to kick you out the League."

Imagine if we got demoted to the new 8th tier of Scottish football, Trips to Benburb and Petershill lol. It would be something you would simulate in football manager.

 

I just hope some good comes out of this all. Scottish football is sick and the people who run dont seem to care especially for the smaller teams or anyone who is not the Old Firm. 

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23 minutes ago, elevenone said:

my fav paragraph from the article.  :lol:

One CEO from the Championship added: “They are holding a gun to the head of Scottish football. Perhaps one of us may have to suggest to Doncaster they are kicked out of the league and Kelty Hearts and Brora are brought in.”

This could have all been solved amicably if Doncaster had shown any leadership skills, instead he coerced clubs into voting for a resolution which disadvantaged clubs like PTFC , Hearts and Stranraer and even the play off teams ( any idea what John Nelms was thinking of )

Even when the resolution was passed, there was no acknowledgement of the disadvantaged teams . That alone should have triggered a vote of no confidence in Neil Doncaster as he has a duty of care to all 42 clubs .

If anything comes out of this at least it will show up the mismanagement of the SPFL as a governing body.

I believe it has left the SPFL in an unenviable position , do they go back to the Clubs and try and sort out some sort of compensation package ( not the figures quoted ) or do they go to Court and have their dirty washing aired in public .

 

Edited by jlsarmy

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1 hour ago, michael m said:

Seems we are now causing some seethe amongst other clubs who, according to the Daily Record, want to expel us from senior football! So protecting your interests after what is seen as an injustice is worthy of expulsion but run up debts of nearly £100m cheat the taxpayer, the face painter, the flower arranger and be liquidated and we will bend over backwards to get you in to as high a league as possible!

Anyway delighted this is causing angst amongst some other clubs. I’d like to wish David Thompson all the very best - a highly respected friend of the Jags.  If this does nothing other than bring about the downfall of Neil Doncaster, a man who should have led his organisation through this crisis rather than fumbled his way through it, then all good and well.  
 

if his board had decided at a very early stage to say no club will be worse off and led the clubs to a solution that suited all as there was one, then he would have got a lot more sympathy from all clubs and I’m certain it would have carried - that lack of leadership and understanding is why we are where we are.

Out of likes but very well said Michael 

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A few good weeks ago when this all broke, Leslie Deans a very eminent lawyer for many years  and a Hearts fan, stated on Sportsound that he was prepared to fund the the case against the demotion of Hearts. He also said if Partick Thistle wanted to join in it would be at no cost to themselves. He also said they had a very strong case and gave some details. which I unfortunately forget.

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Question for Woodstock Jag ....

If the threats to expel Hearts and Thistle were to be actioned  would that, in your opinion, not make our case stronger ? It can't be right for an organisation to expel a member just for taking legal action against them.

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39 minutes ago, laukat said:

Out of interest - what do you see as the more realistic compensation figure?

I would have thought our compensation would be relative to how much income we lost based on the decision of the SPFL (assuming legal success and I know thats a big if). If league 1 is mothballed we have pretty much lost all income for season 20/21 and then as a minimum have to play 21/22 in league 1 with reduced income. Whilst £2million is probably a deliberately high estimate to start a negotiation its hard to see how the lost income isn't over £1million?

Like maybe a tenth of that at most.

It's not the SPFL's fault if League One isn't viable in the context of public health advice, dependence on crowds for financial viability, and the cost of testing. If I were the SPFL and even if it was substantiated that allowing relegation was wrong and should be compensated for, I would be arguing *immediately* that the causation and foreseeability for most of the losses was not something that sensibly could be pinned on them.

Treating a court room like the Barras is contemptible and not becoming of us.

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1 hour ago, michael m said:

Seems we are now causing some seethe amongst other clubs who, according to the Daily Record, want to expel us from senior football! So protecting your interests after what is seen as an injustice is worthy of expulsion but run up debts of nearly £100m cheat the taxpayer, the face painter, the flower arranger and be liquidated and we will bend over backwards to get you in to as high a league as possible!

Anyway delighted this is causing angst amongst some other clubs. I’d like to wish David Thompson all the very best - a highly respected friend of the Jags.  If this does nothing other than bring about the downfall of Neil Doncaster, a man who should have led his organisation through this crisis rather than fumbled his way through it, then all good and well.  
 

if his board had decided at a very early stage to say no club will be worse off and led the clubs to a solution that suited all as there was one, then he would have got a lot more sympathy from all clubs and I’m certain it would have carried - that lack of leadership and understanding is why we are where we are.

 

48 minutes ago, Big Col said:

Classic reporting from the Daily Record. Unnamed sources blah blah blah.

Utter gutter rag.

I have been wondering for a while now when the expulsion threat would come up! Also failing expulsion, some clubs refusing to play us! 

I think it's beginning to dawn on some clubs that failing to quash the relegation decision may well mean a hefty compensation payment that will put many clubs in the financial (or worse) position than they were in before the infamous April vote! 

I can only say in addition to 'tough' is why don't these clubs give Mr Nelms at Dundee a phone call. He is a 'cracking' negotiator! 

Oh I notice Dunfermline have broken ranks and gone public declaring their support for reconstruction! 

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6 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Question for Woodstock Jag ....

If the threats to expel Hearts and Thistle were to be actioned  would that, in your opinion, not make our case stronger ? It can't be right for an organisation to expel a member just for taking legal action against them.

I mean if they're litigating in a borderline vexatious way and in a manner that threatens the very existence of the SPFL and lots of its other members, that sounds exactly like something an organisation that exists to serve its members should, if the facts warrant it, consider doing.

It would also be us challenging a completely separate decision. It doesn't strengthen the original legal argument.

Edited by Woodstock Jag

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16 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Question for Woodstock Jag ....

If the threats to expel Hearts and Thistle were to be actioned  would that, in your opinion, not make our case stronger ? It can't be right for an organisation to expel a member just for taking legal action against them.

In most situations, a discontented member would not resort to legal action against a membership organisation, instead the member would leave the membership organisation. So it is very difficult to make comparisons about expulsions. Certainly members are expelled from member organisations regularly for all sorts of breaches. Indeed Article 166 of the SPFL Memorandum and Articles of Association states : The Company may by Qualified Resolution ...upon such terms and conditions as it may think fit, expel any club....from the league. Pretty clear, and in the rules. Doesn't make it fair, but those are the rules.

Edited by jaf
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10 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Like maybe a tenth of that at most.

It's not the SPFL's fault if League One isn't viable in the context of public health advice, dependence on crowds for financial viability, and the cost of testing. If I were the SPFL and even if it was substantiated that allowing relegation was wrong and should be compensated for, I would be arguing *immediately* that the causation and foreseeability for most of the losses was not something that sensibly could be pinned on them.

Treating a court room like the Barras is contemptible and not becoming of us.

So many assumptions....

who has said league 1 isn’t viable ? Where can we see that ? 
where does the Anderson money fit into this ? Was it not for lower clubs to play ? why are juniors planning to play ? 
The public health advice is changing and football is restarting 

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