Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
muirparkman

What we CAN do..

Recommended Posts

Much as I have not contributed to the threads concerning the forced expulsion to League 1, I have read just about every one of the 170 (and counting) pages of "what if they shut down the season" and the 13 pages of legal advice for the opposition spouted by WJ.

It strikes me as odd that the main theme, apart from boycotting certain clubs, which I fully support, is usually focused on what we can't do, shouldn't do or are not allowed to do.

I would like to put forward a few ideas that WE CAN do, as a club and as individuals, which would be of our own choosing with no one being able to tell us different. Some of MY thoughts may be rubbish in the eyes of others, some may agree, in part or in full and some hopefully, will add ideas of their own, which can be taken forward. Let's try to push a bit more of the things we can control and deal with what we have no control over as it happens.

First off the Club should get onto O'neils and make a few changes to the strip. The away strip should be an all black affair (some redandyellow design collaboration?) this to remind every other club we visit how we feel about recent events, but this time we will not forget (or forgive) in a season or two. The home strip should have a black armband designed into it, with 2004 and 2020 easily visible.

Seeing how we should all look up to those big succesful teams and emulate them, how about a couple of stars on our shirts. 2004 and 2020 again spring to mind, but even better if we could get it incorporated into the badge somehow. Every bit of communication, newspapers, websites, club programmes and of course EVERY SPFL communication that shows club badges would advertise our resentment for us. And it's not difficult. Bowen Boys had a new badge knocked up in minutes after it became known we were going down the legal road. It would also serve as a good learning tool for young Jags when they ask what we got our stars for.

If we survive, which of course is debatable, I would like to put forward a proposal to get the tv gantry moved across to the Colin Weir stand, so that if we ever get to the giddy heights of televised games, that the cameras are pointed at us, not an empty stand with about three people in it. Since nobody uses the stand the cameras could take over a few seats anywhere they like. Cost £0.

Going forward it would be nice if the club would reward it's own fans with a pledge that never again would anyThistle supporter be forced to give up their seat to accomodate support from ANY other club. This is one thing that really annoys me when I cannot go to my usual part of Firhill because somebody else has been given preference, for my seat, over me.

Relegation Clauses.  On the not too unhappy news that Fox and Zannata had bailed out using the clauses built into their contracts, I began to wonder why these even exist. The very players who dragged the team down to the bottom (again) decide they are too good for the league below and walk away. What should happen is they should be automatically forced to stay unless released and take an automatic 50% pay cut for dropping down a league. Any player who insists on a clause like this if we are playing League 1 football should be ashamed. In fact McCall should name them before showing them the door. (Sorry about the rant, just a real bug bear of mine)

As many on the forum have excellently pointed out, it hasn't paid off for us by trying to be a decent club and support. The cuddly toy image has been knocked out the park in recent weeks and a raft of directors are now gunning for us for having the audacity to stand up to them. The very predictable attitude that they want to expel us is classic bullying. They were delighted when we announced we couldn't afford the legal route." Good old Thistle, sorry old chap, but bugger off to League 1".  Now they all hate us and we ain't the cuddly toy anymore. The only reference to a cuddly toy would be if we as a club could adapt and adopt Roachford's song "Cuddly Toy" and play it every time we scored against any one at home. I'm sure some of the younger ones could adapt the words.

Sorry about the full on rant, but had a lot of things to say and others just popped up as I wrote. I'll probably add to list as time goes on, but please don't take all this with a pinch of salt. There are merits in some of the points and I know others can add good ideas too. We just need the board to read some of it, or some one can PM them and get them to follow up.

 

 

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We should take our medicine and focus on being ready to win on the pitch as and when football comes back.

That’s it.

Moving the cameras would have several effects:

(1) Restricting the view of footage because the Main Stand has pillars.

(2) Cost money in terms of health and safety compliance.

(3) Show what will still be a 2/3 empty JHS most of the time.

You don’t own your seat.

Relegation release clauses are part and parcel of football. There is no “shame” in exercising them. Football players have finite careers, families to feed and a future of their own to protect. They are entitled not to agree to play for a Club if the terms offered do not provide them the security or assurance they can get elsewhere. Thistle weren’t “hoodwinked” into giving players relegation release clauses: they are more often than not the quid pro quo for asserting the right of our own to cut their pay in the event of relegation.

Looking out for ourselves means not doing stupid and self-destructive things just to feel better about ourselves. The only way we shake “the cuddly toy image” is by playing other teams off the pitch.

Everything else is just white noise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A question for WJ: Is there anything that most Thistle fans on this forum would like/ or believe should happen that you agree with.

The "take our medicine" cliche has run its course. It's not medicine, it's poison, potentially lethal, and looking increasingly like it is being prescribed deliberately by some other clubs who would benefit from a general culling of clubs.

"Taking our medicine" might see us playing no football for about another year, even if we did play then no chance of promotion even if we got to a league placing that merited it, and in fact ultimately resulting in the winding up of PTFC.

And yet you think that this is what we should opt for, instead of a legal challenge against the decision to feed us poison. Why? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Mr. Woodstock Jag - When the Glasgow Warriors were at Firhill their games were televised from a gantry in front of the Colin Weir stand (OK it was just the main stand then if you you want to be pedantic!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

We should take our medicine and focus on being ready to win on the pitch as and when football comes back.

That’s it.

Moving the cameras would have several effects:

(1) Restricting the view of footage because the Main Stand has pillars.

(2) Cost money in terms of health and safety compliance.

(3) Show what will still be a 2/3 empty JHS most of the time.

You don’t own your seat.

Relegation release clauses are part and parcel of football. There is no “shame” in exercising them. Football players have finite careers, families to feed and a future of their own to protect. They are entitled not to agree to play for a Club if the terms offered do not provide them the security or assurance they can get elsewhere. Thistle weren’t “hoodwinked” into giving players relegation release clauses: they are more often than not the quid pro quo for asserting the right of our own to cut their pay in the event of relegation.

Looking out for ourselves means not doing stupid and self-destructive things just to feel better about ourselves. The only way we shake “the cuddly toy image” is by playing other teams off the pitch.

Everything else is just white noise.

Great idea , we’ll take our medicine possibly to the existence of our football club.

Absolute nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WJ's answers to the following two questions might clarify for many people where he actually stands:

1) Do you believe that Thistle should receive adequate compensation for being forcibly expelled from the Championship despite around 25% percent of matches remaining to be played, and with Thistle having the opportunity to move off bottom place due to their game in hand?

2) If Thistle did not prepare to take the case to court, do you believe that the SPFL would spontaneously compensate Thistle? (I'm leaving other clubs out of this.)

ETA: If WJ's answers are "Yes" and "No" respectively, then  why should we simply "take our medicine", when instigating legal proceedings appears to be the only way that compensation seems likely to be gained?

Edited by Jaggernaut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

A question for WJ: Is there anything that most Thistle fans on this forum would like/ or believe should happen that you agree with.

The "take our medicine" cliche has run its course. It's not medicine, it's poison, potentially lethal, and looking increasingly like it is being prescribed deliberately by some other clubs who would benefit from a general culling of clubs.

"Taking our medicine" might see us playing no football for about another year, even if we did play then no chance of promotion even if we got to a league placing that merited it, and in fact ultimately resulting in the winding up of PTFC.

And yet you think that this is what we should opt for, instead of a legal challenge against the decision to feed us poison. Why? 

Several reasons:

(1) The status quo isn’t death. It’s just a body blow. We can survive it. It is medicine not poison. The criteria adopted was unfair but ultimately we were shit. We probably would have been relegated had the season been played to a conclusion. Regardless of the unfairness it’s time for us to own our own failure.

(2) Legal action will be even more detrimental to our standing in the game even if we survive.

(3) Even if we don’t survive it’s morally wrong to bring the whole of Scottish football down with us, including potentially other clubs, some of whom might not even have voted against us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Medicines go through trials and checks to show that they will actively improve health. You appear to have a unique view about medicine, health, or both.

1) So, every team that finds themselves bottom of the league is "shit" and should be relegated if the league stops at that point?

2) How will legal action be more detrimental? Because some clubs might not like us? Have they shown that they really like us of late?

3) So, Thistle should offer themselves as one of the sacrificial lambs in what potentially looks like an impending cull? We should avoid being "morally wrong" for the benefit of those clubs whose morals don't extend beyond their own front door? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Several reasons:

(1) The status quo isn’t death. It’s just a body blow. We can survive it. It is medicine not poison. The criteria adopted was unfair but ultimately we were shit. We probably would have been relegated had the season been played to a conclusion. Regardless of the unfairness it’s time for us to own our own failure.

(2) Legal action will be even more detrimental to our standing in the game even if we survive.

(3) Even if we don’t survive it’s morally wrong to bring the whole of Scottish football down with us, including potentially other clubs, some of whom might not even have voted against us.

Re. 1. I don't believe we would have been relegated.

2. Don't give a shit about our standing in the game, I care about the survival of our club. Our standing in the game has been proved to be worthless, as despite it we are knifed in the back by our fellow clubs again and again.

3. No longer give a shit about the  corrupt cesspool nest of vipers that is 'Scottish football'. If I could press a button that would bankrupt certain clubs and the league I would do it right now without a moment's hesitation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jaggernaut said:

Medicines go through trials and checks to show that they will actively improve health. You appear to have a unique view about medicine, health, or both.

1) So, every team that finds themselves bottom of the league is "shit" and should be relegated if the league stops at that point?

If that is what the Clubs decide then yes.

I quibble with the substance of the decision the Clubs took. But once they’ve taken their decision, all Clubs should then accept it.

1 minute ago, Jaggernaut said:

2) How will legal action be more detrimental? Because some clubs might not like us? Have they shown that they really like us of late?

You’ve quite literally seen threats of fines and expulsion, technically permissible under SFA and SPFL rules, being mooted. If you think they’ve been callous and vindictive so far just wait and see what’s coming next.

1 minute ago, Jaggernaut said:

3) So, Thistle should offer themselves as one of the sacrificial lambs in what potentially looks like an impending cull? We should avoid being "morally wrong" for the benefit of those clubs whose morals don't extend beyond their own front door? 

Yes. Because we are better than them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

If that is what the Clubs decide then yes.

I quibble with the substance of the decision the Clubs took. But once they’ve taken their decision, all Clubs should then accept it.

You’ve quite literally seen threats of fines and expulsion, technically permissible under SFA and SPFL rules, being mooted. If you think they’ve been callous and vindictive so far just wait and see what’s coming next.

Yes. Because we are better than them.

Frankly, that is breathtaking. We should sacrifice ourselves "because we are better than them." And what happens next?, when the sacrifice is realised? Do you look forward to watching an amateur team playing in a public park in the amateur leagues? "Because we are better than them"?

And what happens if we do win compensation, will we be forever tainted, somehow below the clubs that wanted us to "take our medicine" and perhaps sink into oblivion?

Remember, Hitler won a democratic majority. Should anybody have resisted his actions?

Edited by Jaggernaut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Several reasons:

(1) The status quo isn’t death. It’s just a body blow. We can survive it. It is medicine not poison. The criteria adopted was unfair but ultimately we were shit. We probably would have been relegated had the season been played to a conclusion. Regardless of the unfairness it’s time for us to own our own failure.

(2) Legal action will be even more detrimental to our standing in the game even if we survive.

(3) Even if we don’t survive it’s morally wrong to bring the whole of Scottish football down with us, including potentially other clubs, some of whom might not even have voted against us.

Could you answer these WJ if you have the time please:

 

1. Toulouse were pish this season 3 wins & 4 draws & a -36 goal difference. The highest court in France ruled that their relegation was illegal and overturned it. 'We would probably have been relegated' is just speculation and has no basis in either fact or evidence. Based on what's happened in France and elsewhere, do you not understand why the club has now exercised the right to have a free hit in tbe court? 

2. How? Because the Daily R, The Scum & generic twisted mainstream media say so? Or are you running scared of the joke organisations that are the  SPFL and SFA? 

3.Were not trying to bring down Scottish football - what an absolute load of codswallop - we are trying to simply have an injustice overturned. Should that fail then compensation will be sought. An interim interdict delaying the start to the season won't affect L1 and L2 clubs as our season is up the swanny already and certainly won'tt bring down the house of tainted cards that is Scottish football. The tinpot chairs of clubs that cannot attract 300 people had no morals or integrity in shafting us a few times - you must be religious WJ because I'm not for turning the cheek on this one at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, gianlucatoni said:

Could you answer these WJ if you have the time please:

1. Toulouse were pish this season 3 wins & 4 draws & a -36 goal difference. The highest court in France ruled that their relegation was illegal and overturned it. 'We would probably have been relegated' is just speculation and has no basis in either fact or evidence. Based on what's happened in France and elsewhere, do you not understand why the club has now exercised the right to have a free hit in tbe court? 

What France did or did not do has no relevance to us.

7 minutes ago, gianlucatoni said:

2. How? Because the Daily R, The Scum & generic twisted mainstream media say so? Or are you running scared of the joke organisations that are the  SPFL and SFA? 
 

If Thistle doesn’t like how Scottish Football wants to run itself the Club is entirely at liberty to resign it’s SPFL membership.

The bottom line is it is a members organisation. You pays your dues and takes your chances or you go it alone. Up to you.

7 minutes ago, gianlucatoni said:

3.Were not trying to bring down Scottish football - what an absolute load of codswallop - we are trying to simply have an injustice overturned. Should that fail then compensation will be sought. An interim interdict delaying the start to the season won't affect L1 and L2 clubs as our season is up the swanny already and certainly won'tt bring down the house of tainted cards that is Scottish football. The tinpot chairs of clubs that cannot attract 300 people had no morals or integrity in shafting us a few times - you must be religious WJ because I'm not for turning the cheek on this one at all. 

Disrupting the Premier and Championship seasons could bankrupt other clubs. Seeking millions of damages is both unsubstantiated and puts the finances of the SPFL and it’s own survival at serious risk. Dragged out and high cost litigation also has the same impact.

You only go to court when you have a clear legal case. Not to posture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

What France did or did not do has no relevance to us.

If Thistle doesn’t like how Scottish Football wants to run itself the Club is entirely at liberty to resign it’s SPFL membership.

The bottom line is it is a members organisation. You pays your dues and takes your chances or you go it alone. Up to you.

Disrupting the Premier and Championship seasons could bankrupt other clubs. Seeking millions of damages is both unsubstantiated and puts the finances of the SPFL and it’s own survival at serious risk. Dragged out and high cost litigation also has the same impact.

You only go to court when you have a clear legal case. Not to posture.

'Disrupting the Premier and Championship seasons could bankrupt other clubs.'

Good. Many of them had absolutely no compunction in condemning us to potential bankruptcy because 'there's nothing in it for us', as voters against reconstruction were quoted as saying.

'You only go to court when you have a clear legal case.'

The published legal advice of our QCs was that we have a clear case of UK company law and the SPFL's own articles being broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, delurker said:

'Disrupting the Premier and Championship seasons could bankrupt other clubs.'

Good. Many of them had absolutely no compunction in condemning us to potential bankruptcy because 'there's nothing in it for us', as voters against reconstruction were quoted as saying.

And if they’re clubs who voted with us?

2 minutes ago, delurker said:

'You only go to court when you have a clear legal case.'

The published legal advice of our QCs was that we have a clear case of UK company law and the SPFL's own articles being broken.

But that’s not the legal argument we are now making! Hearts and Thistle are *only* seeking to challenge their relegation, not the resolution as a whole.

The resolution was a package of proposals voted on in the round. You can’t just pick and choose which bits of it to keep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Dundee Utd, raith and Cove now kekking their breeks after voting for what they wanted and fk us hearts and stranraer - heart bleeds for them. 

Meanwhile us and hearts plod on quietly

Now if only there was a way out of this sh*t show that wouldn't disadvantage any of the 5 clubs... 

... come on now give me an R, give me an E, give me a C..... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

And if they’re clubs who voted with us?

But that’s not the legal argument we are now making! Hearts and Thistle are *only* seeking to challenge their relegation, not the resolution as a whole.

The resolution was a package of proposals voted on in the round. You can’t just pick and choose which bits of it to keep.

'And if they’re clubs who voted with us?'

That would be a shame, but I put our survival above all. Clubs that feel threatened by this action have an easy out; pass one of the many reconstruction options that would have 'done no harm'.

'But that’s not the legal argument we are now making! Hearts and Thistle are *only* seeking to challenge their relegation, not the resolution as a whole.'

That's what I thought too from our original statement. The stuff coming out today about letters sent to clubs contesting promotion seems to contradict this.

I admit I'm confused on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

What France did or did not do has no relevance to us.

If Thistle doesn’t like how Scottish Football wants to run itself the Club is entirely at liberty to resign it’s SPFL membership.

The bottom line is it is a members organisation. You pays your dues and takes your chances or you go it alone. Up to you.

Disrupting the Premier and Championship seasons could bankrupt other clubs. Seeking millions of damages is both unsubstantiated and puts the finances of the SPFL and it’s own survival at serious risk. Dragged out and high cost litigation also has the same impact.

You only go to court when you have a clear legal case. Not to posture.

As a parallel is it going to be ok for the majority of SPFL clubs to put our club in danger  with no start date to Division 1 and I think at this moment in time we’ve probably got the biggest pool of players who are under contract 14/15 players.

No income coming in and these players have got to be paid .

I’m sure you can do the arithmetic.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suddenly this topic has changed lanes! :lol:

I am very doubtful that legal action over our relegation is the right and sensible way to go. I would much rather the club had delayed its decision, asked the SPFL for an indicitive date for division one to begin and demanded that the other teams in the division commit to playing this season. We would then have known where we stood in relation to a football solution. If there was to be no start date then we could have demanded  the SPFL find a place for us and any outher club who wanted to play a place in a division which was going to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

As a parallel is it going to be ok for the majority of SPFL clubs to put our club in danger  with no start date to Division 1 and I think at this moment in time we’ve probably got the biggest pool of players who are under contract 14/15 players.

No income coming in and these players have got to be paid .

I’m sure you can do the arithmetic.

 

He can't.

WJ wants us to turn round, pull down our kecks and take it up the Gary Glitter because it's the moral thing to do 

Edited by gianlucatoni
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Several reasons:

(1) The status quo isn’t death. It’s just a body blow. We can survive it. It is medicine not poison. The criteria adopted was unfair but ultimately we were shit. We probably would have been relegated had the season been played to a conclusion. Regardless of the unfairness it’s time for us to own our own failure.

(2) Legal action will be even more detrimental to our standing in the game even if we survive.

(3) Even if we don’t survive it’s morally wrong to bring the whole of Scottish football down with us, including potentially other clubs, some of whom might not even have voted against us.

Your ability to predict the future is boundless .....football games , court cases it never ends 

can I gave the lottery numbers for tomorrow? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, delurker said:

'And if they’re clubs who voted with us?'

That would be a shame, but I put our survival above all. Clubs that feel threatened by this action have an easy out; pass one of the many reconstruction options that would have 'done no harm'.

But reconstruction has a very high threshold. Just under half of the Clubs in the league voted for this proposal. Some of them could go to the wall if the league is delayed or there is post-court case chaos. That isn't fair. We shouldn't do that. And in any case our legal argument is extremely weak.

16 minutes ago, delurker said:

'But that’s not the legal argument we are now making! Hearts and Thistle are *only* seeking to challenge their relegation, not the resolution as a whole.'

That's what I thought too from our original statement. The stuff coming out today about letters sent to clubs contesting promotion seems to contradict this.

I admit I'm confused on this.

No today's reports are completely consistent with the letters going out today.

Yesterday's statement said, effectively: "We aren't asking you to cancel titles or to cancel the apportioning of European places. We are only asking you to cancel the promotion and relegation of clubs."

Clearly that means denying Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers a place in the Premier, Championship and League One respectively.

What I am saying is that if the QC's argument is what we are now pursuing, that means asking the court to annul completely the resolution, not simply to disapply bit of it we don't like. To follow through with "Dundee should be deemed to have voted no" or "the entire process is illegal because you didn't give the Clubs adequate information" means asking a Court to say that NOTHING was decided back in April. So that means stripping titles, awarding no European spots, and going back to square one.

We're not arguing for that. So the QC's argument isn't relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×