Another Junior Heading Our Way

[Third Lanark]

I forgot to add we dont even know eitehr if the policy of signing Juniors has even worked either. True Doolan scored a magnificent goal there and Erskine has at times looked good but there have been plenty of times when both have not delivered the goods. Hoepfully after a good pre-season both will be raring to go but at this stage is certainly cant be said that the policy of signing Juniors has been a success. Dunfermline/QOS have been relatively successful in signing players from first/divison teams ie Cardle, McKenna, McGregor just as Rith have signed Baird and this is a route I wish we had the funds to go down.

[Woodstock Jag]

I forgot to add we dont even know eitehr if the policy of signing Juniors has even worked either. True Doolan scored a magnificent goal there and Erskine has at times looked good but there have been plenty of times when both have not delivered the goods. Hopefully after a good pre-season both will be raring to go but at this stage is certainly cant be said that the policy of signing Juniors has been a success. Dunfermline/QOS have been relatively successful in signing players from first/divison teams ie Cardle, McKenna, McGregor just as Rith have signed Baird and this is a route I wish we had the funds to go down.

 

Much like most players generally we've had in the last 5 years.

[GrantB]

I could be facetious at this point at go "Damon Gray/Sam Morrow or Kris Doolan" but I'll resist.

 

A good player is a good player. It doesn't matter what league he's in. SPL teams are increasingly having to rely on their younger players because they too can't afford the alternatives. If a young player has been released from an SPL team it typically means he's simply not good enough. At least when you're recruiting from the Juniors (often better than some 2nd and 3rd Division teams) there's the possibility that they are good at football, but have never gone full-time because they have a trade, and would benefit from the step-up.

 

Juniors cost buttons. Released young guns from the SPL could well actually command higher wages because of their perceived "senior" experience sum totalling a few appearances off the bench in the last 10 minutes for Kilmarnock or Hamilton to fulfil the SPL's U21 bench quota. It doesn't mean they're any better than 20 year-olds plucked from the Juniors.

 

I dont think Doolan is any better or worse than Gray or Morrow (I think all 3 are not good enough for Thistle)

 

If the juniors is such a rich untapped market why aren't there other clubs rushing out to sign players from there? Perhaps it is because it is as I said earlier a glorified pub league.

 

If our directors cannot provide the manager with a budget to comepete in the first division, perhaps they should question why they are directors of this great club in the first place.

 

Some of us may want to accept us being a diddy club competing with the likes of Cowdenbeath to avoid the playoffs, I for one do not and I would like to see us signing players worthy of the name Partick Thistle Football Club.

Edited May 25, 2010 by GrantB

[Woodstock Jag]

I dont think Doolan is any better or worse than Gray or Morrow (I think all 3 are not good enough for Thistle)

 

I disagree. Doolan is good enough to be a competent squad player in the First. Damon Gray struggles to get a game for Berwick Rangers.

 

If the juniors is such a rich untapped market why aren't there other clubs rushing out to sign players from there? Perhaps it is because it is as I said earlier a glorified pub league.

 

Again, disagree. Other Clubs can afford to, so choose to, pay slightly more for senior players as they see it as a safer option, or simply they are content not to pursue all avenues open to them.

 

If our directors cannot provide the manager with a budget to compete in the first division, perhaps they should question why they are directors of this great club in the first place.

 

Which, as I often stress, is a pointless avenue to discuss unless there is a viable alternative ready and willing to get rid of them.

 

Some of us may want to accept us being a diddy club competing with the likes of Cowdenbeath to avoid the playoffs, I for one do not and I would like to see us signing players worthy of the name Partick Thistle Football Club.

 

There's no point getting illusions of the grandeur. We are a "diddy club" at the moment, and getting our Directors to behave more like Callum Melville isn't going to change that.

[Third Lanark]

Much like most players generally we've had in the last 5 years.

To be fair both Buchanan and Cairney came from other SFL clubs and are better than Doolan and Erskine. Harkins did not make it at Blackburn but was still a real asset for us.Twaddle was a Falkirk player not making it into their first team and was a reasonable success.

Mark Roberts again from a fellow SFL club.

Im sure there are a few others I could find as well.

[uberteeb]

I would like to see us signing players worthy of the name Partick Thistle Football Club.

 

Yeah but if we sign Messi and Rooney then more peeps will come see us play innit

 

I've already thought of that sonny

[Woodstock Jag]

To be fair both Buchanan and Cairney came from other SFL clubs and are better than Doolan and Erskine. Harkins did not make it at Blackburn but was still a real asset for us.Twaddle was a Falkirk player not making it into their first team and was a reasonable success.

Mark Roberts again from a fellow SFL club.

Im sure there are a few others I could find as well.

 

That's selective memory though. For every success there's a dud. Ryan McStay. Stevie Murray. Scott Chaplain. Steven McConalogue. Stephen Connor. Sam Morrow.

 

5 of these players came from teams in the same or in a higher Division and another came from Division 3.

 

Worth mentioning that Twaddle actually turned down a deal at Falkirk because he wanted more first team football.

 

It's not as though we don't sign SFL/lower-SPL players; it's just that people can't expect us to be signing ONLY SFL/lower-SPL players. The hysteria that's been generated about signing two Junior players, and the sheer audacity to monitor a couple of others just doesn't add up at all. If Dundee United can pluck SPL players from Division 3, there's absolutely no reason why we can't pluck decent First Division players from the Juniors. None at all.

[PaleGreySky]

If the juniors is such a rich untapped market why aren't there other clubs rushing out to sign players from there? Perhaps it is because it is as I said earlier a glorified pub league.

 

There ARE other clubs picking up juniors. Stenhousemuir just picked up a boy from Kirkintilloch Rob Roy, Clyde got Willie Sawyers from Maryhill and he scored 10 in 24 starts for them, motherwell picked up martin grehan from dundonald bluebell and he's ended up at firhill etc etc. On a side note, Doolan is clearly better than Morrow and Gray. He actually has scored a decent number of goals for us. 7 in 27 starts is alright, considering he doesn't ever really get a proper run in the team. The end of the juniors we are picking up players from is not a 'glorified pub league', and if we can get players who will do a job whilst keeping us within budget then that's what we have to do for now. We've been saying it for years, but the financial speculation in Scottish football WILL catch up with teams like Rangers, Dundee, Dunfermline and Kilmarnock. If we stay out of it for a few years you'll find the latter 3 languishing where we are now, or even where livingston are now and us a few places higher up the ladder. If we can balance our own youth with cheap players from the juniors, picked carefully, then we are actually a model for how to keep within budget on the playing staff front.

[GrantB]

I disagree. Doolan is good enough to be a competent squad player in the First. Damon Gray struggles to get a game for Berwick Rangers.

 

This the same Doolan that couldn't score a goal in Div 2 for Clyde?

 

 

Again, disagree. Other Clubs can afford to, so choose to, pay slightly more for senior players as they see it as a safer option, or simply they are content not to pursue all avenues open to them.

 

So Raith and Stirling for example choose to pay more rather than sign juniors? I dont think so.

 

 

Which, as I often stress, is a pointless avenue to discuss unless there is a viable alternative ready and willing to get rid of them.

 

Maybe the current BoD are not willing to step aside as they like to hang on to their blazers? Maybe people have wanted to come in and invest but have been scared away by the BoD not wishing to give up control. Ronnie McDonald at Accies was one example. Look at Accies now, a far smaller club than Thistle.

 

There's no point getting illusions of the grandeur. We are a "diddy club" at the moment, and getting our Directors to behave more like Callum Melville isn't going to change that.

 

We are only a diddy club if fans accept what they are being given without questioning it. I think we deserve better.

[Third Lanark]

There ARE other clubs picking up juniors. Stenhousemuir just picked up a boy from Kirkintilloch Rob Roy, Clyde got Willie Sawyers from Maryhill and he scored 10 in 24 starts for them, motherwell picked up martin grehan from dundonald bluebell and he's ended up at firhill etc etc. On a side note, Doolan is clearly better than Morrow and Gray. He actually has scored a decent number of goals for us. 7 in 27 starts is alright, considering he doesn't ever really get a proper run in the team. The end of the juniors we are picking up players from is not a 'glorified pub league', and if we can get players who will do a job whilst keeping us within budget then that's what we have to do for now. We've been saying it for years, but the financial speculation in Scottish football WILL catch up with teams like Rangers, Dundee, Dunfermline and Kilmarnock. If we stay out of it for a few years you'll find the latter 3 languishing where we are now, or even where livingston are now and us a few places higher up the ladder. If we can balance our own youth with cheap players from the juniors, picked carefully, then we are actually a model for how to keep within budget on the playing staff front.

Dont mean to sound pedantic but Gray scored 8 goals in 25 games and one of the problems was that he was taken out the squad and Stevie Lennon put in. Anywway I'll try and steer clear of the D Gray word now

[Blackpool Jags]

 

If our directors cannot provide the manager with a budget to comepete in the first division, perhaps they should question why they are directors of this great club in the first place.

 

Some of us may want to accept us being a diddy club competing with the likes of Cowdenbeath to avoid the playoffs, I for one do not and I would like to see us signing players worthy of the name Partick Thistle Football Club.

 

Agree wholeheartedly.

[GrantB]

There ARE other clubs picking up juniors. Stenhousemuir just picked up a boy from Kirkintilloch Rob Roy, Clyde got Willie Sawyers from Maryhill and he scored 10 in 24 starts for them, motherwell picked up martin grehan from dundonald bluebell and he's ended up at firhill etc etc. On a side note, Doolan is clearly better than Morrow and Gray. He actually has scored a decent number of goals for us. 7 in 27 starts is alright, considering he doesn't ever really get a proper run in the team. The end of the juniors we are picking up players from is not a 'glorified pub league', and if we can get players who will do a job whilst keeping us within budget then that's what we have to do for now. We've been saying it for years, but the financial speculation in Scottish football WILL catch up with teams like Rangers, Dundee, Dunfermline and Kilmarnock. If we stay out of it for a few years you'll find the latter 3 languishing where we are now, or even where livingston are now and us a few places higher up the ladder. If we can balance our own youth with cheap players from the juniors, picked carefully, then we are actually a model for how to keep within budget on the playing staff front.

 

How can Dunfermline, allegedly in far greater debt than us, afford to tempt Alex Keddie away from the Scottish Cup finalists?

[Woodstock Jag]

How can Dunfermline, allegedly in far greater debt than us, afford to tempt Alex Keddie away from the Scottish Cup finalists?

 

They are a total shambles, though, and relying on the financial clout and goodwill of some of their directors to stay in business. Incidentally they turn-over a much larger amount than we do, but employ about double the number of staff!

 

Dunfermline are absolutely not a Club we should be modelling ourselves on. Hamilton are. Go back to basics. Spend as little as is possible to remain remotely competitive (by which we mean, "enough to stay in the First Division") and then plough money into youths, Juniors... anything that will, in the long-term generate frequent 5 and 6 figure sums inbound.

[GrantB]

They are a total shambles, though, and relying on the financial clout and goodwill of some of their directors to stay in business. Incidentally they turn-over a much larger amount than we do, but employ about double the number of staff!

 

Dunfermline are absolutely not a Club we should be modelling ourselves on. Hamilton are. Go back to basics. Spend as little as is possible to remain remotely competitive (by which we mean, "enough to stay in the First Division") and then plough money into youths, Juniors... anything that will, in the long-term generate frequent 5 and 6 figure sums inbound.

 

I never for one second suggested that we should model ourselves on Dunfermline, merely questioned how a club with allegedly 10 times our debt can attract a player from a club that has just had a massive cash injection via the Scottish Cup.

 

As for Hamilton, how come Ronnie McDonald talked to us and decided not to touch us with a barge pole? Our directors have a lot to answer for.

[Tom Stronach]

Perhaps it is because it is as I said earlier a glorified pub league.

 

How ignorant can you be? You clearly know nothing about junior football at all. You sound like an Old Firm fan.

[Guest grahamgibsonlickedmyaero]

Sone good points there Graham and cant disagree with them. You are absolutely correct, the clubs is skint, broke etc. My main criticism and I can see Grants points here that why Partick Thistle is skint, broke etc. The wealthy Tom Hughes and Allan Cowan are not. Neither are millionaires David Beattie, Grant Bannerman, Eddie Prentice, Billy Allan and last but not least Ronnie Gilfillan. If these gentleman could even contribute an extra £10k each I'm sure that would dig into the debt and allow us to sign a couple of extra players at the very least.

With regards to the teams you have mentioned, Raith have already got John Baird and are certainly not waiting to July to start signing players, Stirling are linked with Billy Gibson, even Ayr United have signed Alan Trouten all skint clubs maybe but still not needing to go the Juniors route, which maybe is an indication of how ultra skint Partick Thistle the club is.

 

By the way Graham lay off Super Damo Gray he was not that bad really

 

I take an absolutely huge amount of issue with the fact you have come out with that.

 

Do you run around throwiing money in black holes?? I remember you banging on about this on the old forum as well. If I had 1,000,000 - I would be looking after my own future, my families future, and my future livelihood (eg my business/business interests). I would not, after contributing a large amount of money to becoming a board member, be comfortable in the slightest with throwing more money at it, particularly if I had invested in prop co.

 

(can I just say, this post is not considering whether they are good or bad directors, or the pros and cons of prop cp, its just about the pound sums).

[Third Lanark]

I take an absolutely huge amount of issue with the fact you have come out with that.

 

Do you run around throwiing money in black holes?? I remember you banging on about this on the old forum as well. If I had 1,000,000 - I would be looking after my own future, my families future, and my future livelihood (eg my business/business interests). I would not, after contributing a large amount of money to becoming a board member, be comfortable in the slightest with throwing more money at it, particularly if I had invested in prop co.

(can I just say, this post is not considering whether they are good or bad directors, or the pros and cons of prop cp, its just about the pound sums).

How do you know for a fact that some of these guys has contributed money to the club.

I dont care whetehr you take exception or not, if you choose to become a member of a board at a football club is it generally accepted that you bring something with you for the football club, I am seriously questioning what it is that some(not all) of these guys have actually brought

[GrantB]

How ignorant can you be? You clearly know nothing about junior football at all. You sound like an Old Firm fan.

 

Aye, whatever.

 

You stick to spamming the board with rubbish.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I don't see much wrong in sourcing a few Juniors providing the fellow doing the sourcing is up to scratch. After all that was at one time where many a Jags legend came directly from. The Hansens, Joe Craig countless others from around their era and more recently Dinnie & Archibald all came from there.

I'd go further and say that signing younger players from the junior ranks should be common policy until we get a consistent throughput from our youth policy. I doubt it's escaped many on here but Falkirk have just sold Arfield for a lot of money and Hamilton are likely to cash in big style on McArthur.

I'd rather see us mark time, even if some of our next signings tend towards mediocrity, till the youth throughput pays dividends. I'm with McCall in that I agree that the youngsters we've got at the moment should be introduced gradually and not just thrown in the deep end. The youth thing costs money and we're skint so I'm happy enough seeing us forage about in the Juniors meantime rather than cost cut the youth policy just so as we can compete for the signing of a John Baird or an Alex Keddie.

[PaleGreySky]

How can Dunfermline, allegedly in far greater debt than us, afford to tempt Alex Keddie away from the Scottish Cup finalists?

 

Because they're STILL speculating. Just because they are still spending beyond their means doesn't mean it won't ever catch up with them.

[stuthejag]

I don't see much wrong in sourcing a few Juniors providing the fellow doing the sourcing is up to scratch. After all that was at one time where many a Jags legend came directly from. The Hansens, Joe Craig countless others from around their era and more recently Dinnie & Archibald all came from there.

 

 

John Hansen never played junior and his brother played only one game for Sauchie Jnrs before singing for us.

 

Archibald joined our feeder side Possilpark YMCA in 1995 from Rangers SABC. A loan spell (or farmed out) to a junior didin't do him any harm, like Stephen Docherty or Jerry Stirling from that era.

[PaleGreySky]

Aye, whatever.

 

You stick to spamming the board with rubbish.

 

The only rubbish on this thread is the contribution you've made.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

John Hansen never played junior and his brother played only one game for Sauchie Jnrs before singing for us.

 

Archibald joined our feeder side Possilpark YMCA in 1995 from Rangers SABC. A loan spell (or farmed out) to a junior didin't do him any harm, like Stephen Docherty or Jerry Stirling from that era.

sorry if examples were wonky but no one can deny that we sourced plenty a young player from the junior ranks who in turn went on to success at Firhill.

I'm fairly certain that John Hansen played for Sauchie Juniors. Things are a bit cloudy there as Jimmy Millar was both a manager at Sauchie and scout for the Jags.

[Woodstock Jag]

I never for one second suggested that we should model ourselves on Dunfermline, merely questioned how a club with allegedly 10 times our debt can attract a player from a club that has just had a massive cash injection via the Scottish Cup.

 

As for Hamilton, how come Ronnie McDonald talked to us and decided not to touch us with a barge pole? Our directors have a lot to answer for.

 

The reasons are simple, Grant:

 

1. They have a higher turn-over. This means there's more physical cash swilling about the coffers even though the actual debt to various people and institutions is quite substantial.

 

2. They are spending beyond their means.

 

Ask yourself how Gretna could afford to pay James Grady £1k per week while playing in Division 3 and why Dundee can offer to treble Harkins' wages and you'll see a common theme: it's money that they can't afford, and by taking the risk now, they put the financial stability of their respective clubs in danger.

 

We shouldn't be playing dice with debt. There's just no two ways about it.

 

As for the Ronnie McDonald situation, that's years ago. Granted in hindsight it was a really stupid decision not to try to encourage him to get on board/take over the reins, but that doesn't really justify spunking more money on SPL hasbeens now, does it?

 

As was mentioned above by lady-isobel-barnett, the Juniors (and indeed players from Divisions 2 and 3) who we snap up in the age range 20-24 provide a de facto buffer while we try to build-up the current youth system to roll off a production line of talent making us 6 figure sums a year by getting players (like Macbeth) into Championship and Premier League Youth Teams radars. They can do a job. We're not going to be able to buy up the Division any time soon, so there's no point in trying to do it. Produce a core of loyal journeymen and rising potential pros, which is good enough to hold its own in the First, with any league performance better than that being a bonus. Focus on Cups and try to do what Raith Rovers have done, which is use that money to eliminate aspects of the Club's structural debt.

 

Far be it from me to make things political here ( ) but spending money we don't have is New Labour economics. It doesn't work when times are tough on a wider scale. It is a false economy to expect us to spend more on players when we are already losing annually the equivalent of at least half a squad's worth of wages.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Woodstock Jag

[Third Lanark]

The reasons are simple, Grant:

 

1. They have a higher turn-over. This means there's more physical cash swilling about the coffers even though the actual debt to various people and institutions is quite substantial.

 

2. They are spending beyond their means.

 

Ask yourself how Gretna could afford to pay James Grady £1k per week while playing in Division 3 and why Dundee can offer to treble Harkins' wages and you'll see a common theme: it's money that they can't afford, and by taking the risk now, they put the financial stability of their respective clubs in danger.

 

We shouldn't be playing dice with debt. There's just no two ways about it.

 

As for the Ronnie McDonald situation, that's years ago. Granted in hindsight it was a really stupid decision not to try to encourage him to get on board/take over the reins, but that doesn't really justify spunking more money on SPL hasbeens now, does it?

 

As was mentioned above by lady-isobel-barnett, the Juniors (and indeed players from Divisions 2 and 3) who we snap up in the age range 20-24 provide a de facto buffer while we try to build-up the current youth system to roll off a production line of talent making us 6 figure sums a year by getting players (like Macbeth) into Championship and Premier League Youth Teams radars. They can do a job. We're not going to be able to buy up the Division any time soon, so there's no point in trying to do it. Produce a core of loyal journeymen and rising potential pros, which is good enough to hold its own in the First, with any league performance better than that being a bonus. Focus on Cups and try to do what Raith Rovers have done, which is use that money to eliminate aspects of the Club's structural debt.

Far be it from me to make things political here ( ) but spending money we don't have is New Labour economics. It doesn't work when times are tough on a wider scale. It is a false economy to expect us to spend more on players when we are already losing annually the equivalent of at least half a squad's worth of wages.

Again very well put points Graeme.

One concern is that will fans of the team be patient enough to accept that this process you are describing will take a few years, remember there are a few who almost seem to think we have a God given right to be in the SPL.

 

Secondly with the valid points Grant made about Juniors they are in many ways unproven, if they were not to work out we could end up being drawn into a relegation battle, then how much money would we have lost by being relegated. Though there are so many numerous faults with the running of Dunfermline one thing can be guaranteed virtually, that is they wont be relegated next season. Whereas if we have no money to spend on players other than a few Juniors or some old journeyman then do we not seriously risk being involved solely in a battle to avoid relegation next season