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Another Junior Heading Our Way


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The reasons are simple, Grant:

 

1. They have a higher turn-over. This means there's more physical cash swilling about the coffers even though the actual debt to various people and institutions is quite substantial.

 

2. They are spending beyond their means.

 

Ask yourself how Gretna could afford to pay James Grady £1k per week while playing in Division 3 and why Dundee can offer to treble Harkins' wages and you'll see a common theme: it's money that they can't afford, and by taking the risk now, they put the financial stability of their respective clubs in danger.

 

We shouldn't be playing dice with debt. There's just no two ways about it.

 

As for the Ronnie McDonald situation, that's years ago. Granted in hindsight it was a really stupid decision not to try to encourage him to get on board/take over the reins, but that doesn't really justify spunking more money on SPL hasbeens now, does it?

 

As was mentioned above by lady-isobel-barnett, the Juniors (and indeed players from Divisions 2 and 3) who we snap up in the age range 20-24 provide a de facto buffer while we try to build-up the current youth system to roll off a production line of talent making us 6 figure sums a year by getting players (like Macbeth) into Championship and Premier League Youth Teams radars. They can do a job. We're not going to be able to buy up the Division any time soon, so there's no point in trying to do it. Produce a core of loyal journeymen and rising potential pros, which is good enough to hold its own in the First, with any league performance better than that being a bonus. Focus on Cups and try to do what Raith Rovers have done, which is use that money to eliminate aspects of the Club's structural debt.

 

Far be it from me to make things political here ( :hypocrite: ) but spending money we don't have is New Labour economics. It doesn't work when times are tough on a wider scale. It is a false economy to expect us to spend more on players when we are already losing annually the equivalent of at least half a squad's worth of wages.

 

Let me just stress again that I am not advocating us spending ridiculous amounts of cash.

 

What I am suggesting is that at a time when money is tight, we should be filling up the squad with players who we know can play at this level, not taking gambles with players who are untried and unproven.

 

Focussing on cups is a dangerous strategy, all it takes is a poor draw away from home and were back to square one. We should always budget for going out of every cup at the first round and any cash made is a bonus that can then be used to strengthen the squad.

 

There are players to be had out there, not everyone is going to make the grade at the youth systems of the likes of Hearts or Hibs for example and these are players who will have had a good grounding in the game and be hungry to succeed. They will represent less of a gamble than juniors.

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Let me just stress again that I am not advocating us spending ridiculous amounts of cash.

 

What I am suggesting is that at a time when money is tight, we should be filling up the squad with players who we know can play at this level, not taking gambles with players who are untried and unproven.

 

The point being we can't afford to fill the team with players "who we know can play at this level" because we DON'T HAVE THE MONEY (get it?). Anyway, we all know where adopting that strategy gets you: Jim Hamilton.

 

Focussing on cups is a dangerous strategy, all it takes is a poor draw away from home and were back to square one. We should always budget for going out of every cup at the first round and any cash made is a bonus that can then be used to strengthen the squad.

 

I didn't say we should budget for Cups. I said "use Cup runs to reduce the structural debt". In the interim we should be cutting our cloth (which is not the structural debt, but the break-even vs financial loss scenario) which means having to bring in Juniors on the cheap instead of spending relatively substantial sums to compete with Dunfermline, Falkirk, Dundee and Queens for players.

 

There are players to be had out there, not everyone is going to make the grade at the youth systems of the likes of Hearts or Hibs for example and these are players who will have had a good grounding in the game and be hungry to succeed. They will represent less of a gamble than juniors.

 

Do they really, though? Often players will have been playing Reserve and Youth Football for years, never actually being properly exposed to SPL First-team action. Yet somehow, you think they are "less of a gamble" than taking a look at players sometimes just a couple of years older who have been playing some frankly quite vicious football in the Juniors week-in-week out just because they've got "Hibs" or "Hearts" on their previous Clubs list!? Don't be so naive.

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Guest grahamgibsonlickedmyaero

How do you know for a fact that some of these guys has contributed money to the club.

I dont care whetehr you take exception or not, if you choose to become a member of a board at a football club is it generally accepted that you bring something with you for the football club, I am seriously questioning what it is that some(not all) of these guys have actually brought

 

How do you know they have not? If there are board entry requirements, then Im pretty certain they have been paid. If your suggesting they haven't thats pretty serious and I presume you will have evidence.

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How do you know they have not? If there are board entry requirements, then Im pretty certain they have been paid. If your suggesting they haven't thats pretty serious and I presume you will have evidence.

No I havent suggested anything, I happened to ask how you knew they had all made payments in as there may have been other reasons why they were allowed onto the board.

As you say it maybe a requirement that they have to pay a set fee but euqally it may not, I really have no idea, not to sure that you have either but as usual you jump the gun <_<

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So you would rather gamble what little money we have on untried players?

 

At least players who have had a grounding in the professional game know a little about tactics and fitness. Doolan by his own admission was miles behind everyone at Firhill until he'd done a pre season with us.

 

As for bringing up Jim Hamilton, I was virtually the only one on the jagsforum that questioned his signing. I was proven right then and I'll be proven right again if we end up fighting it out with Cowden and Stirling at the bottom of the table.

 

I'm as opposed to signing over the hill duffers as I am with us signing a load of juniors.

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I totally agree with Grant in that the phonies running the club, should pack it in, however while they are unfortunately still here we have to live within our means.

 

It is more than likely we'll be in the bottom three next year, but probably saved by two part-time teams. We don't have a sugar daddy like Morton, and we don't have some money from a cup run like Raith. Signing guys from junior teams and the like is sadly what we are reduced too, and why we'll prop up teams like them. By the way IMO Erskine and Doolan are squad players and no more. Erskine has scope for some improvement, but how much I don't think its a lot.

 

There will be no, absolutely no notable signings at the club over the summer, and my gut tells me money will be wasted on bringing back some guys who no longer contribute enough to the cause.

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So you would rather gamble what little money we have on untried players?

 

What would you rather we do if we *DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY* for tried and tested players?

 

At least players who have had a grounding in the professional game know a little about tactics and fitness. Doolan by his own admission was miles behind everyone at Firhill until he'd done a pre season with us.

 

"Until he'd done a pre season with us" being the discriminant factor. Doolan joined in January. Any Juniors we scout now could join for pre-season training and work their way into the first-team much like Paul Paton did in his first season. Not all of them will make the grade, but the simple fact is that a lot of so-called established professionals or SPL youths (Stevie Murray, Ryan McStay, Jim Hamilton, Damon Gray, Paul Keegan (ex Motherwell), Steven Lennon to name but a few) now reside in inferior leagues. You've singled-out the Juniors for a somewhat baffling reason that you perceive it as a "pub-league" when in reality it's no different from the 2nd and 3rd Division in that, in among the :censor: there's the occasional rough diamond.

 

As for bringing up Jim Hamilton, I was virtually the only one on the jagsforum that questioned his signing. I was proven right then and I'll be proven right again if we end up fighting it out with Cowden and Stirling at the bottom of the table.

 

I'm as opposed to signing over the hill duffers as I am with us signing a load of juniors.

 

The salient point being we CAN'T AFFORD to put a team together unless we take a punt on a couple of Juniors/old-duffers because we DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY to buy only proven players in sufficient numbers.

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Grant I remember when we signed Hamilton and you were one of the only ones to say it was a bad signing, but for what it's worth I think you are wrong in this instance. Its less of a gamble (financially) to get players from the Juniors and if, like Doolan and Erskine, they show potential then sign them on better deals. We cant afford the likes of Lovell, Corcoran, Corrigan and Shields only for them to be unable to cut-it. Financial prudence coupled with sustainment in Div 1 at least is what we need for the next 2 seasons before we begin to see the youth system start to pay dividends. Without wishing to go OTT on it, I am excited about the youth prospects at Firhill, one criticism I will make of McCall last season is not putting MacBeth into the team sooner. Thats not through hindsight either, I have seen him a good few times now and have been impressed every time. Thats the way forward for Thistle and imo it has a really good chance of success.

 

Anyway, thats my take on things :cool2:

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Guest grahamgibsonlickedmyaero

No I havent suggested anything, I happened to ask how you knew they had all made payments in as there may have been other reasons why they were allowed onto the board.

As you say it maybe a requirement that they have to pay a set fee but euqally it may not, I really have no idea, not to sure that you have either but as usual you jump the gun <_<

 

 

Im not jumping the CEDRIC VAN DER GUN

 

If you have not suggested anything, then neither have I.

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What would you rather we do if we *DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY* for tried and tested players?

 

We have 'x' amount of money for a squad of players. What I suggest we do is use the money wisely to get players who will do a job at this level, not throw it away on guys who may or may not be good enough.

 

"Until he'd done a pre season with us" being the discriminant factor. Doolan joined in January. Any Juniors we scout now could join for pre-season training and work their way into the first-team much like Paul Paton did in his first season. Not all of them will make the grade, but the simple fact is that a lot of so-called established professionals or SPL youths (Stevie Murray, Ryan McStay, Jim Hamilton, Damon Gray, Paul Keegan (ex Motherwell), Steven Lennon to name but a few) now reside in inferior leagues. You've singled-out the Juniors for a somewhat baffling reason that you perceive it as a "pub-league" when in reality it's no different from the 2nd and 3rd Division in that, in among the :censor: there's the occasional rough diamond.

 

There is far more of a chance that we will get a good player from the professional ranks. 19 and 20 year olds are not going to cost vast sums of money like you seem to think.

 

The salient point being we CAN'T AFFORD to put a team together unless we take a punt on a couple of Juniors/old-duffers because we DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY to buy only proven players in sufficient numbers.

 

You must think that junior players will come and play here for buttons. Most of these guys work full time and get paid to play football also. That means to make it viable for them to come here, we have to match what they get from both wages. And after that, THEY MIGHT NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE GRADE AT THIS LEVEL.

 

 

Grant I remember when we signed Hamilton and you were one of the only ones to say it was a bad signing, but for what it's worth I think you are wrong in this instance. Its less of a gamble (financially) to get players from the Juniors and if, like Doolan and Erskine, they show potential then sign them on better deals. We cant afford the likes of Lovell, Corcoran, Corrigan and Shields only for them to be unable to cut-it. Financial prudence coupled with sustainment in Div 1 at least is what we need for the next 2 seasons before we begin to see the youth system start to pay dividends. Without wishing to go OTT on it, I am excited about the youth prospects at Firhill, one criticism I will make of McCall last season is not putting MacBeth into the team sooner. Thats not through hindsight either, I have seen him a good few times now and have been impressed every time. Thats the way forward for Thistle and imo it has a really good chance of success.

 

Anyway, thats my take on things :cool2:

 

I'm not that far apart from your thinking, I think that we can get better players from young fringe players at SPL clubs rather than juniors.

 

Totally agree on MacBeth although one the one occasion I've watched the u19's (the final against Livi), I wasn't as impressed with him as I had hoped to be.

 

What really impressed me about the u19's was the obvious team spirit in the side. Something I think our first team could learn from.

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We have 'x' amount of money for a squad of players. What I suggest we do is use the money wisely to get players who will do a job at this level, not throw it away on guys who may or may not be good enough.

 

What if that means we can't afford to bring in ANYONE over and above the current squad of such calibre as would be (in your eyes) certain to improve it? What if, for example, we only have enough money to have 18-19 full-time squad players (bearing in mind inevitable squad injuries), 3 of which are speculative from lower/Junior leagues, or alternatively just 16 or so full-time squad players, meaning we've got less cover for specific weak positions, and if the so-called proven SPL youngster does a Stevie Lennon we're back to square one? In that position (which I believe is close to the current position) I would be taking a chance on 2 or 3 young guys from lower leagues instead of wrangling with other Clubs who are spunking money they don't have for guys who have pedigree at a higher level, but ultimately run exactly the same risk of disappointing, but at a higher cost.

 

There is far more of a chance that we will get a good player from the professional ranks. 19 and 20 year olds are not going to cost vast sums of money like you seem to think.

 

They're getting well paid as youths in SPL systems. That means that even if they are available, we're likely to be outbid by the likes of Dundee, QOTS, Dunfermline, Falkirk etc. We can try to get them, but in the event that we *can't* match the wage offers from other Clubs, we just have to accept that and look at other options.

 

I don't think you appreciate the gravity of our financial situation. We can't afford to sign people over the summer, probably because it would lead to a cashflow problem. That is absolutely dire. We just DON'T HAVE money to spend throw at players with experience.

 

You must think that junior players will come and play here for buttons. Most of these guys work full time and get paid to play football also. That means to make it viable for them to come here, we have to match what they get from both wages. And after that, THEY MIGHT NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE GRADE AT THIS LEVEL.

 

With the more senior players in the Juniors, certainly, but that's not the case with a lot of the early 20somethings. Kris Doolan was (IIRC) working part-time as a Community Coach with Kilmarnock, and Erskine was working part-time in the shipyards. Initially both DID come and play for buttons (jumping at the chance to play full-time football), hence their initial short-ish contracts being subsequently extended (presumably at higher wage levels) with the risk assessment about their prospects having presumably been passed.

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What if that means we can't afford to bring in ANYONE over and above the current squad of such calibre as would be (in your eyes) certain to improve it? What if, for example, we only have enough money to have 18-19 full-time squad players (bearing in mind inevitable squad injuries), 3 of which are speculative from lower/Junior leagues, or alternatively just 16 or so full-time squad players, meaning we've got less cover for specific weak positions, and if the so-called proven SPL youngster does a Stevie Lennon we're back to square one? In that position (which I believe is close to the current position) I would be taking a chance on 2 or 3 young guys from lower leagues instead of wrangling with other Clubs who are spunking money they don't have for guys who have pedigree at a higher level, but ultimately run exactly the same risk of disappointing, but at a higher cost.

 

 

 

They're getting well paid as youths in SPL systems. That means that even if they are available, we're likely to be outbid by the likes of Dundee, QOTS, Dunfermline, Falkirk etc. We can try to get them, but in the event that we *can't* match the wage offers from other Clubs, we just have to accept that and look at other options.

 

I don't think you appreciate the gravity of our financial situation. We can't afford to sign people over the summer, probably because it would lead to a cashflow problem. That is absolutely dire. We just DON'T HAVE money to spend throw at players with experience.

 

 

 

With the more senior players in the Juniors, certainly, but that's not the case with a lot of the early 20somethings. Kris Doolan was (IIRC) working part-time as a Community Coach with Kilmarnock, and Erskine was working part-time in the shipyards. Initially both DID come and play for buttons (jumping at the chance to play full-time football), hence their initial short-ish contracts being subsequently extended (presumably at higher wage levels) with the risk assessment about their prospects having presumably been passed.

 

If we are so skint AFTER PropCo, then the directors really should be shuffling off into the sunset with their collective heads in their hands.

 

Why then did we spend money on the likes of Greg Shields and Lovell in January?

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If we are so skint AFTER PropCo, then the directors really should be shuffling off into the sunset with their collective heads in their hands.

 

Why then did we spend money on the likes of Greg Shields and Lovell in January?

 

We are still skint after the creation of PropCo because things are THAT BAD. The original deal was supposed to see the whole stadium redeveloped but they couldn't generate sufficient interest, hence the cut-down deal.

 

To break even, we pretty much have to cut the playing budget by about (I'm going to guess) £150k a year. That probably works out at about 5 players' worth of our typical wages.

 

The simple fact is that every penny we spend is a penny more into budget and ultimately structural deficit, which is why we are forced down the route of spending as little as possible on players and hoping to God that the Juniors we track down and obtain can cut the mustard at First Division level to the extent that we can stay up.

 

That is the state of play here Grant. I'm not here to defend Board past mistakes and McCall's past signing errors endorsed by said Board. Past waste does not justify extra expenditure in the present. The need to get 16 players available for a matchday that the manager can have faith in does justify extra expenditure, but in so doing we have to spend as little as possible.

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The simple fact is that every penny we spend is a penny more into budget and ultimately structural deficit, which is why we are forced down the route of spending as little as possible on players and hoping to God that the Juniors we track down and obtain can cut the mustard at First Division level to the extent that we can stay up.

 

That is the state of play here Grant. I'm not here to defend Board past mistakes and McCall's past signing errors endorsed by said Board. Past waste does not justify extra expenditure in the present. The need to get 16 players available for a matchday that the manager can have faith in does justify extra expenditure, but in so doing we have to spend as little as possible.

 

In that case, we are on a one way road to Div 2 and oblivion.

 

Hoping a bunch of juniors can 'cut the mustard' in Div 1 is a massive massive gamble with the very future of the club at stake.

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I never for one second suggested that we should model ourselves on Dunfermline, merely questioned how a club with allegedly 10 times our debt can attract a player from a club that has just had a massive cash injection via the Scottish Cup.

 

Sometimes it is a case not how much you owe but to whom you owe it. Is Dunfermline's debt not largely made up of various 'soft' loans that aren't likely to be called in? Whereas our debt is largely owed to the bank.

 

If I owe Alison £50 she is going to moan if I don;t pay her back. If I owe the loan shark across the close £50 and don't pay it back then he is going to break my legs. :P

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We are only a diddy club if fans accept what they are being given without questioning it. I think we deserve better.

 

I think I deserve a 42" plasma screen TV and a month long holiday somewhere exotic but I can't afford it.

 

Not trying to be flippant but it is the best analogy I can come up with.

 

It doesn't happen often :P but WJ is on the button on this thread.

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In that case, we are on a one way road to Div 2 and oblivion.

 

Hoping a bunch of juniors can 'cut the mustard' in Div 1 is a massive massive gamble with the very future of the club at stake.

 

That's exactly what it isn't. If we only bring in players who we can afford, the very future of the club will not be at stake. The massive massive gamble would be to spend money we don't have.

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That's exactly what it isn't. If we only bring in players who we can afford, the very future of the club will not be at stake. The massive massive gamble would be to spend money we don't have.

Exactly.

Besides we've only got Doolan & Erskine from the juniors. This whole repetitive thread was started with a throw away line in the ET. There's another throw away line in tonight's edition that mentions that it seems certain that we're re-signing Donnelly. So we'll have Buchanan, Grehan, Doolan, Donnelly (maybe) & Burns as strikers. If we are indeed after a striker from the Juniors I'd suggest he'd be a one for the future type youngster who'd maybe go straight out on loan. It's not as if we've a striker in waiting at under 19 level. The lad Shaun Fraser has clear potential but is clearly nowhere near stepping up, and is I think only 17.

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We are still skint after the creation of PropCo because things are THAT BAD. The original deal was supposed to see the whole stadium redeveloped but they couldn't generate sufficient interest, hence the cut-down deal.

 

To break even, we pretty much have to cut the playing budget by about (I'm going to guess) £150k a year. That probably works out at about 5 players' worth of our typical wages.

 

The simple fact is that every penny we spend is a penny more into budget and ultimately structural deficit, which is why we are forced down the route of spending as little as possible on players and hoping to God that the Juniors we track down and obtain can cut the mustard at First Division level to the extent that we can stay up.

 

That is the state of play here Grant. I'm not here to defend Board past mistakes and McCall's past signing errors endorsed by said Board. Past waste does not justify extra expenditure in the present. The need to get 16 players available for a matchday that the manager can have faith in does justify extra expenditure, but in so doing we have to spend as little as possible.

In this scenario is it not fair to critics the 25k or so that Eddie Prentice or his company take home. Surely in the case of value for money if the Jags Trust ran the Centenary Fund for free then that 25k or so could be put to better use Graham? Almost seems to me at times that while making every penny count with the playing budget the board are not so cautious with other areas of the club

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There ARE other clubs picking up juniors. Stenhousemuir just picked up a boy from Kirkintilloch Rob Roy, Clyde got Willie Sawyers from Maryhill and he scored 10 in 24 starts for them, motherwell picked up martin grehan from dundonald bluebell and he's ended up at firhill etc etc. On a side note, Doolan is clearly better than Morrow and Gray. He actually has scored a decent number of goals for us. 7 in 27 starts is alright, considering he doesn't ever really get a proper run in the team. The end of the juniors we are picking up players from is not a 'glorified pub league', and if we can get players who will do a job whilst keeping us within budget then that's what we have to do for now. We've been saying it for years, but the financial speculation in Scottish football WILL catch up with teams like Rangers, Dundee, Dunfermline and Kilmarnock. If we stay out of it for a few years you'll find the latter 3 languishing where we are now, or even where livingston are now and us a few places higher up the ladder. If we can balance our own youth with cheap players from the juniors, picked carefully, then we are actually a model for how to keep within budget on the playing staff front.

Speaking of which I see he has rejected a new contract with Clyde, given that he has proven he has goals in him I would have thought he would be a striker to consider buying :thinking:

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