Scotland's Uni Funding System Faces Legal Challenge

[jaggybunnet]

can some one answer my question please.

 

why when Scotland is not in the EU (according to VP) does it have to provide free places for the likes of Germany and France but not England.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

This topic is going a bit "off topic" at times but basically devolution and the election of the nationalists has made it very easy to play the "them and us" card and stoke anti-English sentiment. It is very petty to allow European students to study for free but English students must pay £9000. We are supposed to live in an open and mobile society but the SNP are basically cutting off the ability for English people to come to uni in Scotland and at the same time stopping Scottish people from going to university in England. So it brings up little gripes and chips on shoulders and continues for another topic and keeps pushing the buttons and winding people up. A very simple and effective tactic of nationalist movements.

 

Another area we need to look at is the numbers of students we have. I studied History but will stand up and say there are far too many Arts students in fact there are far too many students. 10 hours a week at university, larger and larger class sizes, more degrees makes the qualification weaker and then students come out expecting well paid jobs but end up in call centres disaffected and depressed. The SNP wont tackle this as it's the difficult call. They just blame everything on Westminster. Responsibility for nothing but blame culture and finger pointing.

[Blackpool Jags]

Wow, only on this forum, it seems, can people find a reason for shooting a (devolved) Scottish Government for enacting a piece of policy which benefits its constituents: those resident in Scotland. While I admit ( ) to being a lifelong Labour Party member, I quite openly recognise why the Scottish electorate chose to bin them and instead elect a party which would act in its people's best interest.

 

I repeat that bleatings from the Daily Wail and its rancid readership only serve to mask the jealousy or, more likely, the lack of acceptance that Scotland has got this matter spot on. To seek a judicial review of the facts is, in my opinion, nothing short of an outrage. As has been eloquently explained by some posters, Scotland is not a sovereign EU state; education is a devolved function of Holyrood; students from abroad cannot be treated differently from Scots. These are facts and no amount of ill-will from chancers like like Shiner alter that.

 

Onto the "we can't afford free higher education - oh yes we can" debate: free higher education isn't a relic of our our prehistory, it's something most over 30s are perfectly familiar with. Why is it that we could afford fee-free HE fairly soon after the war (WWII), and yet with the economy having grown exponentially since, say, the 1980s, it's a no no these days? I don't believe for a second that i) we can't afford to fund HE in the traditional way and ii) that Scotland's doing anything it shouldn't be doing.

 

In the unlikely event that Shiner won the argument, there would be a serious question over the very basic issue of democracy: that is you can vote for a government of your choice, but there really isn't any point in anybody getting attached to the idea of a devolved government enacting its manifesto commitments as the courts will overrule anything they, or alleged human rights lawyers, feel covetous about.

 

As for the Scottish system being, in effect, some form of pseudo/krypto/quasi racism - pulleeeeease!

[Jaggernaut]

This topic is going a bit "off topic" at times but basically devolution and the election of the nationalists has made it very easy to play the "them and us" card and stoke anti-English sentiment. It is very petty to allow European students to study for free but English students must pay £9000. We are supposed to live in an open and mobile society but the SNP are basically cutting off the ability for English people to come to uni in Scotland and at the same time stopping Scottish people from going to university in England. So it brings up little gripes and chips on shoulders and continues for another topic and keeps pushing the buttons and winding people up. A very simple and effective tactic of nationalist movements.

 

Another area we need to look at is the numbers of students we have. I studied History but will stand up and say there are far too many Arts students in fact there are far too many students. 10 hours a week at university, larger and larger class sizes, more degrees makes the qualification weaker and then students come out expecting well paid jobs but end up in call centres disaffected and depressed. The SNP wont tackle this as it's the difficult call. They just blame everything on Westminster. Responsibility for nothing but blame culture and finger pointing.

 

What would your reaction be if the SNP's policy wasn't enforced and tens of thousands of English students flooded the Scottish system at the expense of Scottish students? And you can be absolutely sure that exactly that would happen.

 

I happen to agree with you about the overall number of university students, but as for your last sentence, there is now way on earth than the SNP can be blamed or held responsible for the current situation.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Jaggernaut

[Vladimir Putin]

can some one answer my question please.

 

why when Scotland is not in the EU (according to VP) does it have to provide free places for the likes of Germany and France but not England.

 

Scotland is of course in the EU, but the EU doesn't recognise Scotland as an independent state - because it's not. Therefore, the rules that apply to relations between EU states don't apply to relations within one EU state (the UK). You legally have to treat citizens from fellow EU states as you would your own citizens, but it doesn't apply to people from within the same state. If Scotland became an independent state within the EU, it would then have to allow students from England to study on the same basis as Scottish students.

[Vladimir Putin]

We are supposed to live in an open and mobile society but the SNP are basically cutting off the ability for English people to come to uni in Scotland and at the same time stopping Scottish people from going to university in England.

 

That is just nonsense. Scottish students have to pay fees (I keep saying 'fees' although they aren't really, 'graduate tax', whatever) in England just now, as do English students in Scotland, and this has been the case for some time. Scottish students will have to pay back the increased tuition fees in England - why should Scottish students end up with £27,000 of debt after studying in England while English students could study here and end up with no debt? By your logic, the UK Coalition is cutting off the ability of all English students to go to university in England.

[jaggybunnet]

Scotland is of course in the EU, but the EU doesn't recognise Scotland as an independent state - because it's not. Therefore, the rules that apply to relations between EU states don't apply to relations within one EU state (the UK). You legally have to treat citizens from fellow EU states as you would your own citizens, but it doesn't apply to people from within the same state. If Scotland became an independent state within the EU, it would then have to allow students from England to study on the same basis as Scottish students.

 

 

that ridiculous, so we pay for anyone and there dog from EU but make the welsh, NI and England have to pay.

 

no wonder they think we are a bitter backward country

 

make them all pay and that includes us.

[Blackpool Jags]

that ridiculous, so we pay for anyone and there dog from EU but make the welsh, NI and England have to pay.

 

no wonder they think we are a bitter backward country

 

make them all pay and that includes us.

 

No. Allow Scotland its legal right to act within the rules, as it is doing at present. Heap shame upon the Westminster wahoos who can't bring themselves to follow Scotland's excellent example.

[honved]

that ridiculous, so we pay for anyone and there dog from EU but make the welsh, NI and England have to pay.

 

no wonder they think we are a bitter backward country

 

make them all pay and that includes us.

 

Ehhh... if you're Scottish and go south to study then you have to pay the same as the English/Welsh. If you're from Scotland and study in Scotland then the Scottish Government pays your fees for you. Don't see anything backward in that. In fact that looks progressive compared to the policies of our southern friends who seem determined to "market force" England back to the days of soup kitchens, workhouses and leaving school at twelve to work in a sweatshop.

[jaggybunnet]

No. Allow Scotland its legal right to act within the rules, as it is doing at present. Heap shame upon the Westminster wahoos who can't bring themselves to follow Scotland's excellent example.

 

 

yeah of course while at the same time telling the hospitals to cut there budgets, and i thought you were a socialist BJ

[jaggybunnet]

Ehhh... if you're Scottish and go south to study then you have to pay the same as the English/Welsh. If you're from Scotland and study in Scotland then the Scottish Government pays your fees for you. Don't see anything backward in that. In fact that looks progressive compared to the policies of our southern friends who seem determined to "market force" England back to the days of soup kitchens, workhouses and leaving school at twelve to work in a sweatshop.

 

 

to anyone looking in, especially those three it does look that way.

 

there is nothing progressive about making people pay taxes for a minority to get degrees which will poss mean them earning more that the person that paid for it, also those (woodstock Jag ?) who at the end don't even use it to find a job, make them pay for it then we might get rid of people who waste our time and money.

 

if this sound like i am bitter and twisted, its because i am :thumbsup2:

Edited August 24, 2011 by jaggybunnet

[Steven H]

No. Allow Scotland its legal right to act within the rules, as it is doing at present. Heap shame upon the Westminster wahoos who can't bring themselves to follow Scotland's excellent example.

 

Agree 100%. The problem with the English system is it makes higher education affordable only for those from a certain class of society. The Scottish system is pretty much perfect, those who can afford to pay their fees/gradute tax do so and those who can't do not. There are plenty who abuse the system and take up places on courses simply to get that first 'double payment' tho, when I started uni there were 70 people in my year and after week 2 that number was reduced to 50 as people used their loan money to go on holiday (which was their aim in the first place). Anyway, I digress.

 

Imagine you are an English student looking to go to uni, you want to do so in your own country but realise it would be much cheaper to do it in Scotland. That doesn't change with the current system, it is still much cheaper for English students to go to uni in Scotland but Scotland have made moves to 1) plug a bit of the whole in the funding and 2) offset the risk of an influx of English students that would not be down to their desire to be educated in Scotland but down to the fact it is much cheaper. If English students really WANT to be educated in Scotland then they should not have an issue with paying for it, they'd be paying more in England anyway.

 

@ Woody: English students taking the place of 'inferior' Scottish students is ok? Are you having a laugh? England has a much much bigger population, therefore the odds of them having a lot more 'deserving' students is quite high. Why then should we bend over backwards by changing our system when the one that is flawed is the English one as this will decrease the likelyhood of the 'undeserving' Scots improving their education, life opportunities and those of future Scots. As has been highlighted elsewhere on this thread, it remains the case that most under-grad students have grown up with the notion of going to uni because their parents had done so or are affluent enough to send their children to uni. As a result of the current system I will now be able to offer that chance to my kids so they dont need to wait until they are in their 30's to finally go for it. Look after our own first and foremost and I believe the current system does that.

 

Edited to add: My use of the words inferior, deserving and undeserving are paraphrases of Woodys descriptions rather than words I would use.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Steven H

[jaggybunnet]

Agree 100%. The problem with the English system is it makes higher education affordable only for those from a certain class of society. The Scottish system is pretty much perfect, those who can afford to pay their fees/gradute tax do so and those who can't do not. There are plenty who abuse the system and take up places on courses simply to get that first 'double payment' tho, when I started uni there were 70 people in my year and after week 2 that number was reduced to 50 as people used their loan money to go on holiday (which was their aim in the first place). Anyway, I digress.

 

Imagine you are an English student looking to go to uni, you want to do so in your own country but realise it would be much cheaper to do it in Scotland. That doesn't change with the current system, it is still much cheaper for English students to go to uni in Scotland but Scotland have made moves to 1) plug a bit of the whole in the funding and 2) offset the risk of an influx of English students that would not be down to their desire to be educated in Scotland but down to the fact it is much cheaper. If English students really WANT to be educated in Scotland then they should not have an issue with paying for it, they'd be paying more in England anyway.

 

@ Woody: English students taking the place of 'inferior' Scottish students is ok? Are you having a laugh? England has a much much bigger population, therefore the odds of them having a lot more 'deserving' students is quite high. Why then should we bend over backwards by changing our system when the one that is flawed is the English one as this will decrease the likelyhood of the 'undeserving' Scots improving their education, life opportunities and those of future Scots. As has been highlighted elsewhere on this thread, it remains the case that most under-grad students have grown up with the notion of going to uni because their parents had done so or are affluent enough to send their children to uni. As a result of the current system I will now be able to offer that chance to my kids so they dont need to wait until they are in their 30's to finally go for it. Look after our own first and foremost and I believe the current system does that.

 

Edited to add: My use of the words inferior, deserving and undeserving are paraphrases of Woodys descriptions rather than words I would use.

 

 

no it doesn't, it wouldn't matter if you have rich parents or not you only pay back when you are earning a certain amount.

 

there in lies the problem you seem happy to have Scottish student even if they are not up to the standard.

 

university have lowered there standards to keep in line with this rubbish that everyone should be able to get a place, only the best should get to uni and only if it is towards a job or whats the point in wasting tax payers money

[Phoenix]

What would your reaction be if the SNP's policy wasn't enforced and tens of thousands of English students flooded the Scottish system at the expense of Scottish students? And you can be absolutely sure that exactly that would happen.

 

I happen to agree with you about the overall number of university students, but as for your last sentence, there is now way on earth than the SNP can be blamed or held responsible for the current situation.

And what would your reaction be if it was the English Universities that allowed every one in the EU to study in England for free except the Scots? That is exactly what is happening here in reverse.

[jaggybunnet]

And what would your reaction be if it was the English Universities that allowed every one in the EU to study in England for free except the Scots? That is exactly what is happening here in reverse.

 

 

 

i really think this looks bad on Scotland

[Steven H]

no it doesn't, it wouldn't matter if you have rich parents or not you only pay back when you are earning a certain amount.

 

But what you are paying back is significantly higher after you add in things like student loans right (am I right in assuming fees and loans are two seperate things?)? Who is most likely to require a loan?

 

there in lies the problem you seem happy to have Scottish student even if they are not up to the standard.

 

university have lowered there standards to keep in line with this rubbish that everyone should be able to get a place, only the best should get to uni and only if it is towards a job or whats the point in wasting tax payers money.

 

Who says they aint up to the standard? The Scottish standard is maintained while we are dealing with mostly Scottish students, but measure the Scottish standard against the English student then, as a result of the bigger population they have, they are more likely to produce students who are of a higher standard than Scotland (like with football etc). Measure ourselves on our own standards and seek ways to improve them, that's what this 'rubbish' that everyone should be able to get A FAIR CHANCE of a place is about is it not?

[Steven H]

And what would your reaction be if it was the English Universities that allowed every one in the EU to study in England for free except the Scots? That is exactly what is happening here in reverse.

 

If the roles were reversed I'd be blaming the Scottish system for this. As far as Im aware, the change in Scottish policy was borne from the change in the English system, it was a reactionary thing to safegaurd our own students rights is it not?

 

 

 

i really think this looks bad on Scotland

 

I think it looks worse on England, that's the flawed system imo.

[jaggybunnet]

But what you are paying back is significantly higher after you add in things like student loans right (am I right in assuming fees and loans are two separate things?)? Who is most likely to require a loan?

 

the loans are to pay the Fees are they not?

 

and sorry but tough, if you want an education to improve your chances of a better wage then pay for it,

 

if i want to do the courses for going off shore or to get my forklift instructors I have to pay for it not the tax payers and that how it should be

 

 

Who says they aint up to the standard? The Scottish standard is maintained while we are dealing with mostly Scottish students, but measure the Scottish standard against the English student then, as a result of the bigger population they have, they are more likely to produce students who are of a higher standard than Scotland (like with football etc). Measure ourselves on our own standards and seek ways to improve them, that's what this 'rubbish' that everyone should be able to get A FAIR CHANCE of a place is about is it not?

 

we should be pushing Scottish students to get higher marks at school not going, don't worry if you haven't got the marks , your are Scottish so will get in anyway. why Scotland is the way it is, mediocre and that goes for our football as well

[Steven H]

the loans are to pay the Fees are they not? - Not in my case, although they may be added to whatever a student gets in loans for living expenses, not 100% sure.

 

and sorry but tough, if you want an education to improve your chances of a better wage then pay for it, - Exactly the point I was making but you disputed, only those who feel they can afford it will do it, I probably couldn't and have suffered a bit financially over the last 4 years, but that's the cross I chose to bear in order to get a degree. I've already said on this thread that I agree students should pay extra after getting a job that pays enough, so I agree, you want it you pay for it. However, my arguement is the English system fails, typical Tory 'rich stay rich, poor stay poor' attitude...but it's ok, the English students can just go to Scotland and get educated for free, and keep the Scots in their place at the same time

 

if i want to do the courses for going off shore or to get my forklift instructors I have to pay for it not the tax payers and that how it should be

 

we should be pushing Scottish students to get higher marks at school not going, don't worry if you haven't got the marks , your are Scottish so will get in anyway. why Scotland is the way it is, mediocre and that goes for our football as well - You think marks at school don't matter? Of course they do, but any 'spare' places should be going to Scottish students imo. Im pretty sure there is a quota of X amount of EU students for each uni/course/year etc (not so sure if such a thing exists for English/Irish/Welsh students) so once that quota has been reached, once those with the required grades and those considered as mature students get places, the surplus should be offered to Scots who have just fallen short of the required grades/conditions of entry...imo of course.

[jaggybunnet]

Exactly the point I was making but you disputed, only those who feel they can afford it will do it, I probably couldn't and have suffered a bit financially over the last 4 years, but that's the cross I chose to bear in order to get a degree. I've already said on this thread that I agree students should pay extra after getting a job that pays enough, so I agree, you want it you pay for it. However, my arguement is the English system fails, typical Tory 'rich stay rich, poor stay poor' attitude...but it's ok, the English students can just go to Scotland and get educated for free, and keep the Scots in their place at the same time

 

NO i said anyone could do it, they all have to pay back the money (how ever much)only when you earn enough, whats the problem with that,

 

i am presuming with that statement you are either a bitter labour or a deluded SNP either way that chip on your shoulder is holding you back

 

You think marks at school don't matter? Of course they do, but any 'spare' places should be going to Scottish students imo. Im pretty sure there is a quota of X amount of EU students for each uni/course/year etc (not so sure if such a thing exists for English/Irish/Welsh students) so once that quota has been reached, once those with the required grades and those considered as mature students get places, the surplus should be offered to Scots who have just fallen short of the required grades/conditions of entry...imo of course.

 

where did i say that?(see my quote below) places should got those with the highest marks what ever country they come from, if Scottish students don't get the relevant marks then that maybe says more about Scottish people and our (devolved) education system.

 

if making people have to pay for there course stops the free loaders and those that do degrees just because they can, then great and that could free more places for those that deserve it.

 

we should be pushing Scottish students to get higher marks at school not going, don't worry if you haven't got the marks , your are Scottish so will get in anyway.

[Steven H]

 

NO i said anyone could do it, they all have to pay back the money (how ever much)only when you earn enough, whats the problem with that,

 

None really, except the student from lower class backgrounds would pay roughly £20,000 (based on 4 years at highest available living expenses loan) back in addition to whatever they pay back for fees when they are earning enough (and IIRC enough is upwards of £15k a year...not really a great wage considering the 4 years study and the 'debt' they get into). Those from higher classes will be less likely to require a loan.

 

i am presuming with that statement you are either a bitter labour or a deluded SNP either way that chip on your shoulder is holding you back

 

You disgree that the Tory policy is as I stated? You wont find much support for that as far as Im aware. Older generations have lived through it, younger generations are now beginning to experience it. My political persuaion is irrelvant, the Conservative Party policy has never changed...where the biggest cuts are taking place right now (and the hikes they have implimented in student fees, despite having a coalition with the one party who appeared to be 'for the students') only highlights that further.

 

where did i say that?(see my quote below) places should got those with the highest marks what ever country they come from, if Scottish students don't get the relevant marks then that maybe says more about Scottish people and our (devolved) education system.

 

At 12:54 today you said don't worry if you haven't got the marks , your are Scottish so will get in anyway. Does that not imply results are unimportant?

 

if making people have to pay for there course stops the free loaders and those that do degrees just because they can, then great and that could free more places for those that deserve it.

 

I'm not arguing against paying for your education, I'M arguing for the current Scottish system with regards to English students coming here to study.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Steven H

[jaggybunnet]

None really, except the student from lower class backgrounds would pay roughly £20,000 (based on 4 years at highest available living expenses loan) back in addition to whatever they pay back for fees when they are earning enough (and IIRC enough is upwards of £15k a year...not really a great wage considering the 4 years study and the 'debt' they get into). Those from higher classes will be less likely to require a loan.

 

i think its now higher than that 21? and if my kids go to uni the would stay with me so have an advantage over the others anyway, yes i know that is not always the case but more so for scottish students.

 

what if they do anyway, there choice, take the chance or get a job.

 

You disgree that the Tory policy is as I stated? You wont find much support for that as far as Im aware. Older generations have lived through it, younger generations are now beginning to experience it. My political persuaion is irrelvant, the Conservative Party policy has never changed...where the biggest cuts are taking place right now (and the hikes they have implimented in student fees, despite having a coalition with the one party who appeared to be 'for the students') only highlights that further.

 

most of the cuts we see at the moment are labour or in some of scotland, SNP

 

the lib dems just found out that reality is different to what there deluded polices that they could never finace.

 

and again with the chip showing with that statement.

 

At 12:54 today you said don't worry if you haven't got the marks , your are Scottish so will get in anyway. Does that not imply results are unimportant?

 

try reading my post again and stop making stuff up, i will try again.. IF SCOTTISH STUDENTS DONT GET THE GRADES THEY SHOULD NOT GET A PLACE BECAUSE THEY ARE SCOTTISH,, clear enough

 

we should be pushing Scottish students to get higher marks at school not going, don't worry if you haven't got the marks , your are Scottish so will get in anyway.

 

I'm not arguing against paying for your education, I'M arguing for the current Scottish system with regards to English students wanted to come here to study.

 

which is that Scottish and EU students don't pay .

 

whats the difference with loads of EU students coming over against loads of English students? you could have the same quotas just add the English, welsh or NI to it.

 

just smacks of salmond trying to flex his (lack) of political muscle and is embarrassing to watch

[Steven H]

i think its now higher than that 21? and if my kids go to uni the would stay with me so have an advantage over the others anyway, yes i know that is not always the case but more so for scottish students.

 

what if they do anyway, there choice, take the chance or get a job.

 

 

 

most of the cuts we see at the moment are labour or in some of scotland, SNP

 

the lib dems just found out that reality is different to what there deluded polices that they could never finace.

 

and again with the chip showing with that statement.

 

 

 

try reading my post again and stop making stuff up, i will try again.. IF SCOTTISH STUDENTS DONT GET THE GRADES THEY SHOULD NOT GET A PLACE BECAUSE THEY ARE SCOTTISH,, clear enough _ that bit is, but you did say what I quoted, see below for advise on that one.

 

 

which is that Scottish and EU students don't pay .

 

whats the difference with loads of EU students coming over against loads of English students? you could have the same quotas just add the English, welsh or NI to it.

 

just smacks of salmond trying to flex his (lack) of political muscle and is embarrassing to watch

 

I dont know enough about the education systems of the various EU nations, but I doubt any of them will be as costly as England, or as close to our doorstep. What would you rather, a system like the English one or a system like we have in Scotland?

 

Making stuff up I think you should try reading your posts again and I will accept your apology for that accusation .

 

I think your own political persuassions are influencing your posts, my opinions are simply that, my personal opinions (and understandings). Do they fall into political party policy? Maybe

[Blackpool Jags]

yeah of course while at the same time telling the hospitals to cut there budgets, and i thought you were a socialist BJ

 

[honved]

Mr Shiner pissing in the wind according to one of his peers (pun intended)