Vladimir Putin Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 have your referendum now, you will lose it and that's why salmond doesn't want to have it now. I wouldn't be so sure. Who is going to lead the No campaign and make a convincing case for the Union? David Cameron? One appearance from him in Scotland would guarantee a Yes landslide. Nick Clegg? Nick Griffin? There's not a lot of unionists out there with a lot of popularity in Scotland, and no-one who could convincingly stand up to Salmond in any public debate. The same scaremongering about how Scotland would fall off a cliff if the SNP win was trotted out before they won a minority governement, and before they won a majority government. Labour's argument at the last campaign basically amounted to 'Alex Salmond's coming to get your children'. What makes you think it will work next time around? And also, if the SNP would definitely lose a referednum as you say now, why do none of the unionist parties support a referendum? A defeat would set the SNP back by a generation. Why doesn't Cameron just call one now if the result isn't in doubt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I wouldn't be so sure. Who is going to lead the No campaign and make a convincing case for the Union? David Cameron? One appearance from him in Scotland would guarantee a Yes landslide. Nick Clegg? Nick Griffin? There's not a lot of unionists out there with a lot of popularity in Scotland, and no-one who could convincingly stand up to Salmond in any public debate. This is the big question. The answer for me, if he'd be willing to do it, is Charles Kennedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 This is the big question. The answer for me, if he'd be willing to do it, is Charles Kennedy. ... and the crowd shouted: RUBBISH! I like Kennedy for reasons other than he's a Liberal (Tory lap dogs IMO), but I doubt if his knowledge of Scottish fiscal matters would be on a par with Salmond (who I don't especially care for but most certainly don't think is a Nazi). As a supposedly astute politician, he'll keep his distance from the big dog. You will, no doubt, disagree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 This is the big question. The answer for me, if he'd be willing to do it, is Charles Kennedy. That would be hilarious. Salmond would toy with the ginger alky much in the same way a cat does with a mouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Putin Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I'm not sure Kennedy has the status for it, he is only a Lib-Dem backbencher these days, and even though not so tainted by association with the Conservatives as some other Scottish Lib-Dems, we're talking about a senior statesman-style figure with the credibility to lead what will undoubtedly be a well-financed No campaign. Of course Cameron, Miliband etc may try to do it, but there has to be Scottish voices arguing for the Union as well or it will just play right into Alex Salmond's hands (and I'm not talking about Michael Gove, Liam Fox, or Danny Alexander). I personally think a combination of Gordon Brown and Menzies Campbell would possibly have what it takes to stand up to Salmond and credibly make the case for the Union. Whether either of them, especially Gordon although Campbell seems fairly disillusioned these days as well, would have the stomach for it is a different matter. A lot of the independence referendum will come down to Salmond asking the Scottish electorate to trust him, and the No campaign has to find someone credible to oppose him - the usual unionist scaremongering has not been proven not to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I wouldn't be so sure. Who is going to lead the No campaign and make a convincing case for the Union? David Cameron? One appearance from him in Scotland would guarantee a Yes landslide. Nick Clegg? Nick Griffin? There's not a lot of unionists out there with a lot of popularity in Scotland, and no-one who could convincingly stand up to Salmond in any public debate. The same scaremongering about how Scotland would fall off a cliff if the SNP win was trotted out before they won a minority governement, and before they won a majority government. Labour's argument at the last campaign basically amounted to 'Alex Salmond's coming to get your children'. What makes you think it will work next time around? And also, if the SNP would definitely lose a referednum as you say now, why do none of the unionist parties support a referendum? A defeat would set the SNP back by a generation. Why doesn't Cameron just call one now if the result isn't in doubt? i think that they did say to have it actually but salmond said he wanted to wait, go on have your referendum it will turn out just like the yes to alt vote did, in a humping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Putin Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 i think that they did say to have it actually but salmond said he wanted to wait, go on have your referendum it will turn out just like the yes to alt vote did, in a humping Why doesn't David Cameron just call a referendum now then, and humilate Alex Salmond with a landslide No vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 i think that they did say to have it actually but salmond said he wanted to wait, go on have your referendum it will turn out just like the yes to alt vote did, in a humping Jaggy If / when independence is won, would you run back to the mother country; or would you form the loyalist resistance and stay and fight? We must know the answer. Are there any medals you don't have? I know that you're Lord Lieutenant of West Lothian, Her Majesty's truth defender in residence etc, but I'm amazed that you can get your good jacket on with all the gongs you've got. Perhaps something worth taking down the pawn come the day... (independence day - you know, the one that you have nightmares about... the one when the flag is lowered at Castle Bunnet and the servants are emancipated!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Why doesn't David Cameron just call a referendum now then, and humilate Alex Salmond with a landslide No vote? your lot want it not us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Jaggy If / when independence is won, would you run back to the mother country; or would you form the loyalist resistance and stay and fight? We must know the answer. Are there any medals you don't have? I know that you're Lord Lieutenant of West Lothian, Her Majesty's truth defender in residence etc, but I'm amazed that you can get your good jacket on with all the gongs you've got. Perhaps something worth taking down the pawn come the day... (independence day - you know, the one that you have nightmares about... the one when the flag is lowered at Castle Bunnet and the servants are emancipated!). oh dear, my "mother country" is Scotland which i think is stronger in union with the rest of the uk, whats the problem. i can at least admit that i DON'T know if Scotland could make it alone and that if it was to all go wrong where would we be? anyway MJ you are only on for a wind up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honved Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Daily Record begins to turn...not long till they see the writing on the wall as The Independent just loses the plot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alx Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Daily Record begins to turn...not long till they see the writing on the wall as The Independent just loses the plot Jings, if the daily record ever properly changes it's tune then it's game over for the unionists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 i think that they did say to have it actually but salmond said he wanted to wait, go on have your referendum it will turn out just like the yes to alt vote did, in a humping I think he wants the referendum now. Salmond 1 Paxman 0. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=alex+salmond+jeremy+paxman+youtube&docid=1167927935503&mid=61955AD6EAF53EC956DD61955AD6EAF53EC956DD&FORM=VIRE1# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 I think he wants the referendum now. Salmond 1 Paxman 0. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=alex+salmond+jeremy+paxman+youtube&docid=1167927935503&mid=61955AD6EAF53EC956DD61955AD6EAF53EC956DD&FORM=VIRE1# bring it on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 To turn the question on it's head (slightly) I wonder what would convince people to vote in favour. If the answer is either 'anything' or 'nothing' then that's emotion rather than reasoned political debate. So under what circumstances would those in favour of independence not support it, and under what circumstances would those against be in favour? For me (currently against) to support it I'd be looking for: - Our own currency Independence requires true fiscal autonomy. Our deficit/ tax collection/ spending/ interest rates/ inflation rates would require our own currency. We would have to start with our share of the fiscal deficit from the UK. Couldn't even think of joining the Euro. - Our own non-monarchial head of state We need an end to inherited privelege. Throughout our society, and that starts at the 'top'. - A true separation of church and religion We need an end to inherited privelege. Churches and their structures influence that unduly. This would be the opportunity to end that. No more state funding of 'faith based' anything. - Our own armed forces We defend with what we can afford. No units within the British armed forces. If the UK want to lease bases from us we could consider that. - A constitution that is truly liberal and democratic An effective 'Bill of Rights'. Modify our structures to avoid cronyism and to ensure diversity of opinion and representation. - Our own health service A health service that (a) is free at the point of delivery ( is modelled on best practice examples from throughout the world and (c ) we can afford. This is not necessarily the SNHS. If we had this, fully costed out and risk assessed, with guarantees on performance, then I might be persuaded that a yes vote would give us a better chance outside the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alx Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Some of these things just have to be taken slowly, making sure that the horses aren't scared. I'm not keen on the monarchy myself but who cares really? I've taken up Euro scepticism in my old age, so staying out the EU would be lovely. The Euro currency is a complete non-starter, I would definitely prefer the pound. The SNP traditionally believed in 'Independence in Europe' but that was before the 'political union' nonsense thats came to a nasty end with the Treaty of Lisbon. We would presumably come out of the British Army quite quickly, but after some of T.Blairs crazy adventures that shouldn't be too controversial. I would love to see a non-nuclear Scottish Navy based in the Clyde bases. On the plus side: we don't need to start charging students a fortune and our NHS won't be privatised (can be done without full independence I should concede). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honved Posted September 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 To turn the question on it's head (slightly) I wonder what would convince people to vote in favour. If the answer is either 'anything' or 'nothing' then that's emotion rather than reasoned political debate. So under what circumstances would those in favour of independence not support it, and under what circumstances would those against be in favour? For me (currently against) to support it I'd be looking for: - Our own currency Independence requires true fiscal autonomy. Our deficit/ tax collection/ spending/ interest rates/ inflation rates would require our own currency. We would have to start with our share of the fiscal deficit from the UK. Couldn't even think of joining the Euro. - Our own non-monarchial head of state We need an end to inherited privelege. Throughout our society, and that starts at the 'top'. - A true separation of church and religion We need an end to inherited privelege. Churches and their structures influence that unduly. This would be the opportunity to end that. No more state funding of 'faith based' anything. - Our own armed forces We defend with what we can afford. No units within the British armed forces. If the UK want to lease bases from us we could consider that. - A constitution that is truly liberal and democratic An effective 'Bill of Rights'. Modify our structures to avoid cronyism and to ensure diversity of opinion and representation. - Our own health service A health service that (a) is free at the point of delivery ( is modelled on best practice examples from throughout the world and (c ) we can afford. This is not necessarily the SNHS. If we had this, fully costed out and risk assessed, with guarantees on performance, then I might be persuaded that a yes vote would give us a better chance outside the UK That's quite interesting, since a lot of what you are concerned with is stuff that would be considered pretty hard line by many pro independence people, although personally I'd go along with all of that. The only cost risk there is the NHS one, all of the rest are largely idealogical issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C.G. JAG Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) I think the current thinking is to, at least initially, stay with Sterling. Some might argue that we would be better off with that as an independent country than as we are just now as it's the Bank Of England that fixes interest rates for the whole of the UK and Scots might well benefit if we became more equal partners in deciding those rates. Whatever happens, I'd like us to get rid of the ridiculous custom of letting every bank and their dug print bills. It's a nightmare for traveling Scots - banks and currency exchange bureaus keep sample books of all world notes, but no-one keeps Scottish ones as there is so many of them. It benefits no one having so many different bills. On the question of the Monarchy, I heard a couple of suggestions - we could keep the current incumbents but give them another hat so that they are the wearer of two crowns as we've done before, or, as I prefer, declare the throne vacant and give an elected head of state a secondary title such as caretaker or protector. That would hopefully satisfy the bluenoses enough... As for faith based groups, couldn't agree more! They can raise their own funds - however I wouldn't see this as a condition of independence, Edited September 6, 2011 by B.C.G. JAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) As an internationalist I struggle with the notion of true independence and wonder if it will ever happen and if there is a true appetite for such a move. Echoes of Jim Sillars and his 90-min nationalists can still be heard. I don't think as a nation that we're that fussed. Like quite a few on this forum I really don't know the answers and wonder if it's fiscally easier to stick with the Westminster mob until something better is on offer; be that a better political system or promise of new found wealth along similar lines to the the Norwegian model - all references to Iceland and Ireland have been dropped and therein lies the danger for any small nation trying to go its own way. Also, hasn't (our?) oil been bailing out successive governments and didn't it actually finance Thatcher so that she could embark on her little social engineering escapades? But I digress. Is independence simply replacing one ruling elite with another and what do ordinary people get out of the deal? I fear very little but we will have a good independence day party and a new national holiday come the great day. Other problems relating to currency can be overcome and, as an oil rich wee country, our Scottish pounds or whatever they'll be called will be welcomed around the World. (Cue a competition in The Sun to name the currency - the bawbee or whatever.) Apologies if this is all very cynical stuff... Oh, then there's minor issues like do we remain part of the Commonwealth, what about links to the armed services, naval and air force bases, Nato etc. For socialists is there any contradiction between standing for the break-up of an existing multinational state such as the UK and defending the unity of the working class across national borders? For some this may be a problem and come the stage of referendum debates the cracks will appear as battle lines are drawn and the tabloids choose sides. My take on this is that for left-leaning folk in Scotland, as in other parts of the World, the debate on independence is not a debate between nationalism and internationalism: it is a debate over how best to advance the struggle for socialism in Scotland and internationally. By adopting a broad policy which combines support for independence from the British state with a socialist and internationalist perspective, any opportunist party could make a huge impact. I mean, we know that New Labour and the other pro-London parties will probably all join forces to tell us why we need the Union, but who will be able to step in as an alternative voice for ordinary working people? My view is that if the argument is won and the people wish independence then the SNP could be presented with an open goal. Edited September 6, 2011 by Meister Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Got to say first off that I'm not a nationalist as such (I'd look a bit daft if I was, being down here all this time), but a fiercely patriotic individual just the same. The more I see the way Scotland is scorned and mocked by the media and some of the political tossers from South of the border who see the devolved Scottish Parliament as some stupid wee talking shop that'll keep the Jocks quiet for a while, the more I find myself leaning towards the Nationalist cause. Typically, when Holyrood actually starts to legislate in favour of its electors (how bloody dare they?!?!) the media are off on one, such as the favourable coverage given to that reptilian human rights lawyer who can't stand to see the Scots enact a popular piece of business such as that concerning tuition fees etc etc... If Scotland does at some point decide to go it alone, I hope it turns out to be a rip-roaring success. You know, if it wisnae for the weans, grand weans, joab, mortgage... Oh BJ you seem to always write exactly what I think or how I feel in a much more eloquent and concise manner than I ever could. I'm certainly not a Nationalist but I don't think you need to be a Nationalist to be patriotic. I am starting to realise that independence has many benefits I never saw before, or at least would have fewer negatives than I thought in the past. As said in the OP, it wouldn't probably be particularly different. The Scottish Executive might even improve (it seems like a glorified city council outside the SNP at times) due to the influx of Scottish Westminster MPs who I'm sure wouldn't be staying in the UK parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Thanks, Twinny. I think most of us ex-pats feel similarly about our Scottishness. There's one or two I've known over the years, though, who are truly 'assimilated' with the locals, even up to and including falling into the local twang . This is a capital offence in my book; nothing wrong with a smidgin of modification to enable you to make yourself understood, but I've seen the odd one or two who sound indistinguishable from "sand-grown 'uns" - the term given to those born and raised in Blackpool. I get on well with most of the locals and I've got some really good English mates, but I've been known to let myself down on more than one occasion when pished while an England game's been on the club telly, and been heard to loudly cheer on the opposition whoever it might've been. Ach well, at least they know what I'm really like deep down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 Thanks, Twinny. I think most of us ex-pats feel similarly about our Scottishness. There's one or two I've known over the years, though, who are truly 'assimilated' with the locals, even up to and including falling into the local twang . This is a capital offence in my book; nothing wrong with a smidgin of modification to enable you to make yourself understood, but I've seen the odd one or two who sound indistinguishable from "sand-grown 'uns" - the term given to those born and raised in Blackpool. I get on well with most of the locals and I've got some really good English mates, but I've been known to let myself down on more than one occasion when pished while an England game's been on the club telly, and been heard to loudly cheer on the opposition whoever it might've been. Ach well, at least they know what I'm really like deep down. We've all done it! On a side note, I was in Blackpool a few weeks ago wearing my black slazenger polo shirt with red and yellow horizontal pinstripes and I saw an old guy wearing the same shirt on the south pier, I was tempted to go up and ask if it was you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Scruff Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 That's quite interesting, since a lot of what you are concerned with is stuff that would be considered pretty hard line by many pro independence people, although personally I'd go along with all of that. The only cost risk there is the NHS one, all of the rest are largely idealogical issues. But there's the thing. Without true fiscal autonomy independence would be little more than 'devolution plus', and the worst of both worlds. For us to go through the (likely painful) adjustment in our economy we would need to have control of all the levers available - the Euro demonstrates how true that is. To offset the obvious risks involved in going through this at this time, we would need a programme for growth and creating a competitive economy. Again we would need full autonomy to do this. My hope would be that our political institutions would be changed to support this; by necessity they would probably have to. The other stuff I realise is more ideologically based. But it's a question of (for me) what would make our society and economy better, and most of that would be easier to achieve through independence than trying to mould the whole of the UK. It all comes at a price, though, as well as the potential to produce a more egalitarian society. That's ultimately what I would like to see, not the state controlled, planned/ command economy vision promoted by many for 'the Socialist Republic of Scotland'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 We've all done it! On a side note, I was in Blackpool a few weeks ago wearing my black slazenger polo shirt with red and yellow horizontal pinstripes and I saw an old guy wearing the same shirt on the south pier, I was tempted to go up and ask if it was you I might well have been there at that time and sporting said attire, but with it being an old guy you saw, it definitely wasn't me - honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Incognito Posted September 7, 2011 Report Share Posted September 7, 2011 To turn the question on it's head (slightly) I wonder what would convince people to vote in favour. If the answer is either 'anything' or 'nothing' then that's emotion rather than reasoned political debate. So under what circumstances would those in favour of independence not support it, and under what circumstances would those against be in favour? For me (currently against) to support it I'd be looking for: - Our own currency Independence requires true fiscal autonomy. Our deficit/ tax collection/ spending/ interest rates/ inflation rates would require our own currency. We would have to start with our share of the fiscal deficit from the UK. Couldn't even think of joining the Euro. - Our own non-monarchial head of state We need an end to inherited privelege. Throughout our society, and that starts at the 'top'. - A true separation of church and religion We need an end to inherited privelege. Churches and their structures influence that unduly. This would be the opportunity to end that. No more state funding of 'faith based' anything. - Our own armed forces We defend with what we can afford. No units within the British armed forces. If the UK want to lease bases from us we could consider that. - A constitution that is truly liberal and democratic An effective 'Bill of Rights'. Modify our structures to avoid cronyism and to ensure diversity of opinion and representation. - Our own health service A health service that (a) is free at the point of delivery ( is modelled on best practice examples from throughout the world and (c ) we can afford. This is not necessarily the SNHS. If we had this, fully costed out and risk assessed, with guarantees on performance, then I might be persuaded that a yes vote would give us a better chance outside the UK The currency, armed forces and health service questions are good ones and I am keen to know how they would be addressed in an independent Scotland. This is why I think it is vital that there is an open, fair debate prior to the referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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