If You Were Undecided About Scotland, Has Cameron Tipped It For You?

[The Devil's Point]

The SNP are the party of government in this country whether you like it or not. Council elections are usually where the electorate take revenge on the party of government at the ballot box (see down south for an example) yet in Scotland, the SNP gained the highest percentage of the vote and returned more councillors than ever before.

 

Doesn't sound like Scotland rejected independence to me...

 

As you know, Scotland has returned a small minority of SNP councillors. The SNP have failed in Glasgow, and have lost the argument. .

[P-R]

The Devil's Point is

 

"I don't like the SNP"

[Blackpool Jags]

As an unabashed old Labourite - and one who hasn't resided in Scotland for quite a long time - I can't help but read much of the anti-SNP comments, both on here and elswhere, as sour grapes. I'm really not sure where people get this 'Scotland has rejected the SNP and (by deduction) independence'. From outside the goldfish bowl and looking in, it doesn't seem that way to me; the SNP's performance on Thursday seemed to hold good.

 

Ideally, I'd like to see a resurgent Labour Party that recollects why it came into being and stopped prioritising the felatio of big business and human garbage like the Murdochs. (Assuming) post-independence in Scotland, a strong party of the left working in the interests of ordinary working people will be a must.

 

I might be dreaming that Labour can regain its roots, but down here, for example, there isn't an SNP to turn to. Meanwhile it's 'Operation Blitz the Tories and their gLibDem bedfellows'.

 

As a by the way, we decimated both cheeks of the ConDem arse in two by-elections here on Thursday, including my own ward. Happy days.

[jaggybunnet]

The Devil's Point is

 

"I don't like the SNP"

 

bloody hell, do you blame him

[twinny]

As an unabashed old Labourite - and one who hasn't resided in Scotland for quite a long time - I can't help but read much of the anti-SNP comments, both on here and elswhere, as sour grapes. I'm really not sure where people get this 'Scotland has rejected the SNP and (by deduction) independence'. From outside the goldfish bowl and looking in, it doesn't seem that way to me; the SNP's performance on Thursday seemed to hold good.

 

Ideally, I'd like to see a resurgent Labour Party that recollects why it came into being and stopped prioritising the felatio of big business and human garbage like the Murdochs. (Assuming) post-independence in Scotland, a strong party of the left working in the interests of ordinary working people will be a must.

 

I might be dreaming that Labour can regain its roots, but down here, for example, there isn't an SNP to turn to. Meanwhile it's 'Operation Blitz the Tories and their gLibDem bedfellows'.

 

As a by the way, we decimated both cheeks of the ConDem arse in two by-elections here on Thursday, including my own ward. Happy days.

 

Agree wholly with this. Both Labour and the SNP did well here, but these results cannot be extrapolated to predict the results of a referendum. The SNP are doing well and under Salmond's current tenure they seem to gain a boost in support exactly when it matters. I'm not too bothered about the union any more - in an independent Scotland a true labour movement will do well.

 

In England I don't believe the Labour party are so stong, but are benefiting from a ConDem government who are completely out of touch.

[Jaggernaut]

Don't worry, the Liberal Democrats will be back. Liberalism is a truly great political force and will always find an expression in politics. We will never be crushed by nationalists, and will always fight for local decision making and the rule of law.

[Blackpool Jags]

Don't worry, the Liberal Democrats will be back. Liberalism is a truly great political force and will always find an expression in politics. We will never be crushed by nationalists, and will always fight for the rights of our Tory mates to privatise cherished institutions like the NHS while our spiritual leader, Cleggo, inserts his tongue down the front of Cameron's trousers.

[jaggybunnet]

Agree wholly with this. Both Labour and the SNP did well here, but these results cannot be extrapolated to predict the results of a referendum. The SNP are doing well and under Salmond's current tenure they seem to gain a boost in support exactly when it matters. I'm not too bothered about the union any more - in an independent Scotland a true labour movement will do well.

 

In England I don't believe the Labour party are so stong, but are benefiting from a ConDem government who are completely out of touch.

 

A true Labour movement would/will never get voted in as its seen as to far left hence it took blair dragging it into the centre to win an election

[The Devil's Point]

 

Yeah ok. I didn't actually realise I felt so strongly about some of these issues either until I read this thread this morning.

 

[twinny]

A true Labour movement would/will never get voted in as its seen as to far left hence it took blair dragging it into the centre to win an election

 

Yes, in the UK where a Conservative party is seen as a reasonable alternative. Scotland sits much further to the left than England.

[hamiltonjag]

A true Labour movement would/will never get voted in as its seen as to far left hence it took blair dragging it into the centre to win an election

Tory B Liar did indeed drag Labour to the right.

 

Hence the reason the Nats get the left vote. Bizarre as that may seem

[Guy Incognito]

You are desperate. To be honest, you should take a few days off to calm down then rejoin a more sensible debate about Scottish politics.

 

Facts are facts, the SNP have completely failed to deliver in this election. They now won't be able to deliver independence for the same reason I'm afraid.

 

The independence fantasy is bust, and it will be gone for a generation now.

 

 

That's a bit rich coming from someone who has just resurected a post that has lain dormant for over two months simply to gloat about Labour winning control of a council they have had control over since nineteen-canteen! Ignoring the fact that the SNP actually increased their tally of

councillors in Glasgow, voting patterns in local elections often do not reflect those on a national level. People have a tendency to vote for councillors who have helped them in the past with local issues, hence why the Lib Dems had - up until recently anyway - always fared much better in local than national elections.

 

As an unabashed old Labourite - and one who hasn't resided in Scotland for quite a long time - I can't help but read much of the anti-SNP comments, both on here and elswhere, as sour grapes. I'm really not sure where people get this 'Scotland has rejected the SNP and (by deduction) independence'. From outside the goldfish bowl and looking in, it doesn't seem that way to me; the SNP's performance on Thursday seemed to hold good.

 

Ideally, I'd like to see a resurgent Labour Party that recollects why it came into being and stopped prioritising the felatio of big business and human garbage like the Murdochs. (Assuming) post-independence in Scotland, a strong party of the left working in the interests of ordinary working people will be a must.

 

I might be dreaming that Labour can regain its roots, but down here, for example, there isn't an SNP to turn to. Meanwhile it's 'Operation Blitz the Tories and their gLibDem bedfellows'.

 

As a by the way, we decimated both cheeks of the ConDem arse in two by-elections here on Thursday, including my own ward. Happy days.

 

Unfortunately, the current bunch of jokers masquerading as the Labour party would condem Scotland to the ConDems for ever more, rather than support an independent socialist Scotland. Labour have been reduced to turning themselves in to diet Tories - a sort of Hearts to the Conservatives' Rangers - in order to become electable in England. So not only are they selling out Scotland, they are also selling out their core support throughout the UK. What a obtuse, lemming-like party they have become.

[Guy Incognito]

The Devil's Point, on 05 May 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

 

Don't worry, the Liberal Democrats will be back. Liberalism is a truly great political force and will always find an expression in politics. We will never be crushed by nationalists, and will always fight for the rights of our Tory mates to privatise cherished institutions like the NHS while our spiritual leader, Cleggo, inserts his tongue down the front of Cameron's trousers

 

[Guy Incognito]

sorry, but anybody thinking that we can handle our affairs as a nation state, and all that encompasses, when we cant even handle football in a way approaching decent needs their head examined.

 

listen to the alex thompsons interview with hugh keevins and you will see how close our society is to that which is depicted in deliverance.

 

SQUEAL LIKE A PIG AND VOTE SNP!!!!!

 

Even Davie Cameron and Co. have ditched the 'you're too stupid' line. Don't tell me we have come full circle already!

[jaggybunnet]

Tory B Liar did indeed drag Labour to the right.

 

Hence the reason the Nats get the left vote. Bizarre as that may seem

 

sort of proves my point as wee eck as with blair is more center right, no matter what the rest of his underlings say

[jaggybunnet]

Even Davie Cameron and Co. have ditched the 'you're too stupid' line. Don't tell me we have come full circle already!

 

its not a case of too stupid, just not proven to be viable

[The Devil's Point]

 

That's a bit rich coming from someone who has just resurected a post that has lain dormant for over two months simply to gloat about Labour winning control of a council they have had control over since nineteen-canteen! Ignoring the fact that the SNP actually increased their tally of

councillors in Glasgow, voting patterns in local elections often do not reflect those on a national level. People have a tendency to vote for councillors who have helped them in the past with local issues, hence why the Lib Dems had - up until recently anyway - always fared much better in local than national elections.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the current bunch of jokers masquerading as the Labour party would condem Scotland to the ConDems for ever more, rather than support an independent socialist Scotland. Labour have been reduced to turning themselves in to diet Tories - a sort of Hearts to the Conservatives' Rangers - in order to become electable in England. So not only are they selling out Scotland, they are also selling out their core support throughout the UK. What a obtuse, lemming-like party they have become.

 

I have already accepted that some of my comments last night got a bit silly. However, the fact that this thread ran for so long in the first place (and was still only on the second page of the board last night) surely means it was reasonable to bring it back again after such a significant development.

 

Play down the loss of Glasgow all you like, but I think it is very significant that the SNP didn't win here. It was seen as a key battleground in the election and the fact that the SNP made such little progress here surely doesn't bode well for their hopes for a successful referendum campaign. We will obviously have to agree to disagree, but I really don't see independence happening any time soon.

[andyconnor]

DP, i dont think Labour winning Glasgow in the council elections was ever in doubt, do you?

that's why i didnt bother my arse voting.

like i said the holyrood elections are a different matter entirely (in my opinion). and the SNP well and truly kicked labours butt last time round.

i'm happy that the nats have control of the scottish parliment, and can block labour policies such as raising council tax.

Edited May 6, 2012 by andyconnor

[mrD]

if our parliament's half as good as our fitba...

[hamiltonjag]

Never mind.

 

 

Happy INTERnational Workers Day one and all.

[Guy Incognito]

I have already accepted that some of my comments last night got a bit silly. However, the fact that this thread ran for so long in the first place (and was still only on the second page of the board last night) surely means it was reasonable to bring it back again after such a significant development.

 

Play down the loss of Glasgow all you like, but I think it is very significant that the SNP didn't win here. It was seen as a key battleground in the election and the fact that the SNP made such little progress here surely doesn't bode well for their hopes for a successful referendum campaign. We will obviously have to agree to disagree, but I really don't see independence happening any time soon.

 

The fact that the voter turnout was only around 35% suggests it was mainly die-hards who were voting, such as those who vote Labour through thick and thin, thus it is impossible to try and predict what the outcome of the referendum will be based on those results. Similarly, I don't believe for one moment that every single person who voted SNP last year will be placing a cross in the 'yes' box in 2014.

 

I actually agree with your last sentence. As much as I personally believe that independence is the only way we can progress as a nation and as a society, there is, sadly, far too much negative thinking in Scotland for that to happen. It really is a shame that so many people would rather behave like spoilt weans, blaming everything on London and the English, than strike out on their own and create the kind of country they claim to want - I know plenty of people who whinge like f*ck about "the Tories" but are opposed to independence.

[GrantB]

As you know, Scotland has returned a small minority of SNP councillors. The SNP have failed in Glasgow, and have lost the argument. .

 

I repeat my previous point that you are on the wacky backy. The biggest party with the most votes is a 'small monority' I'd love an ounce of what you've been smoking...