If You Were Undecided About Scotland, Has Cameron Tipped It For You?

[hamiltonjag]

I found out yesterday that, despite being a fervent Scottish patriot, I'm "anti-Scottish".

 

Way to go McAlpine..... you're obviously a "better Scot" than I am eh?

[Jaggernaut]

Its difficult to know where to start with this.

 

Lets see the numbers. Why can't the SNP outline where the money will come from to fund their pie in the sky policies and promises? Tell us how the sums add up as otherwise its just all about people fuelling their egos and overly romantic dreams.

 

--What are these, exactly? Where does Westminster get its money to buy weapons of mass destruction and then spend billions on illegal wars to prevent other countries from getting WMD? In actual fact, the UK is in debt up to its neck.

 

The demands for independence really only play to sentimental and emotional ideas of what Scotland is. If you don't know how to start with addressing this reality, you will have the shock of your life coming whenever your mob finally have the guts to ask the country.

 

--The desire to cling to an outmoded union that was never democratically created in the first place only plays to sentimental and emotional ideas of "great" Britain, in which Scotland would preferably be referred to as "North Britain".

 

I agree we should have a referendum though, and we should respect the outcome. We should all try to debate this sensibly and let the best arguments win

 

--Yes.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Jaggernaut

[sigesige00]

--Yes.

If I were a Scot, I would have advocated an active boycott from the referendum.

Unlike the period of capitalist ascendancy and nation-building, there is no progressive nature in the nationalisms of imperialist countries, in this historical epoch of capitalist decay.

I am for a united Ireland, because the Irish nation has been unjustly partitioned and the republican population is oppressed, but I can find no progressive content in Scottish nationalism. The working class must be internationalist. Proletarian revolution means an overthrow of capitalism on the world scale.

[yoda-jag]

Four countries in a union do not make one better off.

 

To the naysayers who want no change.....You must unlearn what you have learned.

 

For my ally is Freedom. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us….. and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this….crude matter! You must feel Freedom around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock… everywhere! Even between the land and the ship.

[The Devil's Point]

--Yes.

 

Oops

 

Perhaps I should have posted that one in the thread about own goals!

[kni]

This debate is actually about separation not independence. If Scotland voted leave the UK, it would have to apply to join the EU. The EU would have to buy the Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS from the British taxpayer or they would go bust.

 

[RBS has a massive exposure to the Eurozone, especially Greece and is about about to lose half its investment (many £billions). It will soon need another bailout from the English taxpayer that Scotland cannot afford.]

 

So an "independent" Scotland would be ruled from Brussels rather than Westminster. In practice, it's unlikely that the EU could afford to have Scotland as a separate member. Scotland's application to join could fail. It would certainly fail to meet the criteria to join the Eurozone. Scotland would therefore need to have its own currency with all the costs of conversion that would go with it.

 

It's not surprising that Salmond is now desperate for the "Devo Max" option.

[GrantB]

This debate is actually about separation not independence. If Scotland voted leave the UK, it would have to apply to join the EU. The EU would have to buy the Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS from the British taxpayer or they would go bust.

 

[RBS has a massive exposure to the Eurozone, especially Greece and is about about to lose half its investment (many £billions). It will soon need another bailout from the English taxpayer that Scotland cannot afford.]

 

So an "independent" Scotland would be ruled from Brussels rather than Westminster. In practice, it's unlikely that the EU could afford to have Scotland as a separate member. Scotland's application to join could fail. It would certainly fail to meet the criteria to join the Eurozone. Scotland would therefore need to have its own currency with all the costs of conversion that would go with it.

 

It's not surprising that Salmond is now desperate for the "Devo Max" option.

 

How the feck could Scotland's application fail when they have let in Estonia and all the former Soviet Block states? More unionist scaremongering of the worst kind.

 

Next we'll have someone on saying the oil is going to run out. Oh wait...

[jaggybunnet]

How the feck could Scotland's application fail when they have let in Estonia and all the former Soviet Block states? More unionist scaremongering of the worst kind.

 

Next we'll have someone on saying the oil is going to run out. Oh wait...

 

being different from wee ecks it will be alright on the night.... honest, how? you dont know it would work but bugger it we will give it a go because we are scottish

 

and of course the oil is going to run out

[GrantB]

being different from wee ecks it will be alright on the night.... honest, how? you dont know it would work but bugger it we will give it a go because we are scottish

 

and of course the oil is going to run out

 

I keep using this analogy but as a kid, you are going to have to move out of your parents house at some point....

 

Scotland is a proud nation with resourceful people. We will do just fine.

[jaggybunnet]

I keep using this analogy but as a kid, you are going to have to move out of your parents house at some point....

 

Scotland is a proud nation with resourceful people. We will do just fine.

 

try telling my kids that.

 

will we?

[GrantB]

try telling my kids that.

 

will we?

 

First point

 

Second point, deep down you know we will...

[The Devil's Point]

I keep using this analogy but as a kid, you are going to have to move out of your parents house at some point....

 

Scotland is a proud nation with resourceful people. We will do just fine.

 

That will often be with parental help with the rent/mortgage though. Just because you leave the home doesn't mean you have to divorce from the family.

 

Where are all of these resourceful people? I'm not seeing a country full of budding Michele Mone's, I seeing a country where much of our talent is channelled into social services. Thats fine, and we are good at it. However, it doesn't make money, and an economy cannot be based around such skill sets. We need to see the numbers about how Scotland will suddenly cope economically after independence. I will happily change my mind if the facts I am seeing change.

[GrantB]

That will often be with parental help with the rent/mortgage though. Just because you leave the home doesn't mean you have to divorce from the family.

 

Where are all of these resourceful people? I'm not seeing a country full of budding Michele Mone's, I seeing a country where much of our talent is channelled into social services. Thats fine, and we are good at it. However, it doesn't make money, and an economy cannot be based around such skill sets. We need to see the numbers about how Scotland will suddenly cope economically after independence. I will happily change my mind if the facts I am seeing change.

 

I'd rather see us try than spend our lives saying what if. We may only get one chance at this in our lifetimes. Do you really want to be at the end of your days and think about how different things mught be if we only had that little bit of belief...

[kni]

How the feck could Scotland's application fail when they have let in Estonia and all the former Soviet Block states? More unionist scaremongering of the worst kind.

 

Next we'll have someone on saying the oil is going to run out. Oh wait...

 

Estonia was economically very strong when it entered the EU. It boomed after the USSR collapsed (major player in telecoms) but has suffered under the EU's regulatory burden. The other Baltic countries have suffered badly from migration to other EU states.

[The Devil's Point]

How the feck could Scotland's application fail when they have let in Estonia and all the former Soviet Block states

 

Our application could prove something of a Turkey. Why would we be allowed in when the French, in particular, are unhappy about full membership for Turkey?

[GrantB]

Our application could prove something of a Turkey. Why would we be allowed in when the French, in particular, are unhappy about full membership for Turkey?

 

Maybe because Scotland hasn't committed genocide against the Armenians?

[kni]

Our application could prove something of a Turkey. Why would we be allowed in when the French, in particular, are unhappy about full membership for Turkey?

 

Turkey is a more complex issue - 70 million plus Muslims would have right to migrate to other EU countries. David Cameron supports Turkish entry but I certainly don't.

 

The big issue for Scottish independence is the banking sector - owned and propped up by the British taxpayer with a huge exposure to the PIIGS' bonds in the Eurozone.

[JAGZ1876]

I keep using this analogy but as a kid, you are going to have to move out of your parents house at some point....

 

 

This union is a marriage, we're not the kids, we're the henpecked husband who married a single mother and took her maiden name, who takes our pay packet and gives us a couple of quid beer money while she swans about squandering our hard earned while telling anyone who'll listen what an erse she's married to. Of course that's when she's not starting arguments and picking fights with the neighbours, or showing us up at parties by standing up on tables, getting her t**t,s out and flashing her union jack knickers.

 

 

I'm sorry love, we've had some great time's, but i don't love you any more......I want a divorce.

[Collins Out!]

Will voting for independence mean we can get the WMD out of Faslane and Scotland? If so I vote yes.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Collins Out!

[John Blutarsky]

This

might help you decide - it's absolutely fkn hilarious.

[jaggybunnet]

Will voting for independence mean we can get the WMD out of Faslane and Scotland? If so I vote yes.

 

Not if wee eck can get cash for it

[joejag]

Will voting for independence mean we can get the WMD out of Faslane and Scotland? If so I vote yes.

NO! We need them to bomb England!!

[Norgethistle]

I keep using this analogy but as a kid, you are going to have to move out of your parents house at some point....

 

Scotland is a proud nation with resourceful people. We will do just fine.

 

Thats why our hospitals are full of foreign doctors & nurses, our building industry is full of polish, as are our buses and food picking/packing/ If we are so resourceful why arent we taking these jobs, because for alot they cant be bothered to either work or go out and get an education or trade.

 

As for the oil be aware if salmond does what he had promised with the extra oil tax, norwegian oil companys (statoil etc) have said they would close all operations in scotland and re pipe all the oil/gas currently going to scotland to norway.

 

As i said previously in this thread no one has came out and said how this will really work apart from the "If your Scottish you have to vote for it" Scotland gets £10bn more in benefits a year than what it brings in, yes i know the UK as a whole borrows billions but as a smaller player where we going to get the short fall from as we have zero credit rating, maybe no currency and maybe no EU membership (Not a bad thing in my mind), so all we can do is raise taxes and drop benefits the hole has to be plugged. He has been in the newspapers over here saying how he is going to model "his" new scotland on the norway model, so enjoy 36% or 50% tax on your wages, £8 a pint to get the tax to the revenue, £1.50 a liter of fuel. Yes we get paid more, but with a country that has 1% unemployment and so many companys state run Norway can afford to, plus it has Zero debt to service, uses none of its own gas (fully for sale) as it uses hydro. Until Salmond can prove how we will balance the books, how our defence will be, our currency, membership to EU etc etc etc its a NO for me, otherwise its a leap of faith with no substance

[P-R]

As for the oil be aware if salmond does what he had promised with the extra oil tax, norwegian oil companys (statoil etc) have said they would close all operations in scotland and re pipe all the oil/gas currently going to scotland to norway.

 

Source? The only item I've read about on oil tax was a levy in the last budget from Westminster.

[Norgethistle]

 

 

Source? The only item I've read about on oil tax was a levy in the last budget from Westminster.

Will try and find it it was in one of the papers here and it was from Salmond