If You Were Undecided About Scotland, Has Cameron Tipped It For You?

[joejag]

This

might help you decide - it's absolutely fkn hilarious.

Oh! My That was absolutely brilliant. We have a long wait for the referedum if we are waiting for the 700th anniversary of MEL GIBSON death???

[Jaggernaut]

Thats why our hospitals are full of foreign doctors & nurses, our building industry is full of polish, as are our buses and food picking/packing/ If we are so resourceful why arent we taking these jobs, because for alot they cant be bothered to either work or go out and get an education or trade.

 

As for the oil be aware if salmond does what he had promised with the extra oil tax, norwegian oil companys (statoil etc) have said they would close all operations in scotland and re pipe all the oil/gas currently going to scotland to norway.

 

As i said previously in this thread no one has came out and said how this will really work apart from the "If your Scottish you have to vote for it" Scotland gets £10bn more in benefits a year than what it brings in, yes i know the UK as a whole borrows billions but as a smaller player where we going to get the short fall from as we have zero credit rating, maybe no currency and maybe no EU membership (Not a bad thing in my mind), so all we can do is raise taxes and drop benefits the hole has to be plugged. He has been in the newspapers over here saying how he is going to model "his" new scotland on the norway model, so enjoy 36% or 50% tax on your wages, £8 a pint to get the tax to the revenue, £1.50 a liter of fuel. Yes we get paid more, but with a country that has 1% unemployment and so many companys state run Norway can afford to, plus it has Zero debt to service, uses none of its own gas (fully for sale) as it uses hydro. Until Salmond can prove how we will balance the books, how our defence will be, our currency, membership to EU etc etc etc its a NO for me, otherwise its a leap of faith with no substance

 

And don't you ever think to yourself that if Norway can be so successful, so could Scotland? Or are you one of those who thinks that Scots are somehow too inept to manage their own affairs?

[hamiltonjag]

And don't you ever think to yourself that if Norway can be so successful, so could Scotland? Or are you one of those who thinks that Scots are somehow too inept to manage their own affairs?

...... or is Norway too full of Scots stealing their jobs?

[Norgethistle]

 

 

And don't you ever think to yourself that if Norway can be so successful, so could Scotland? Or are you one of those who thinks that Scots are somehow too inept to manage their own affairs?

Not at all I think it's the wrong time financially (in the middle of a recession etc) and I have still to see Salmond get down to brass tacks on what will benefit, where we will lose out and more importantly how he will fix the losses, it's still the well sort it when it's in place that's worrying, but he has 3 years to come up with the figures and the plan, and if it looks like it will make Scotland better he'll get my vote but till then it's a no

[Norgethistle]

 

...... or is Norway too full of Scots stealing their jobs?

No jobs to steal, if it wasn't for the expats norway would fail as there is more jobs than Norwegians, there is 10000 Brits in stavanger alone at any one time

[Jaggernaut]

Not at all I think it's the wrong time financially (in the middle of a recession etc) and I have still to see Salmond get down to brass tacks on what will benefit, where we will lose out and more importantly how he will fix the losses, it's still the well sort it when it's in place that's worrying, but he has 3 years to come up with the figures and the plan, and if it looks like it will make Scotland better he'll get my vote but till then it's a no

 

Isn't there a kind of circularity to the "wrong time" argument?: It's wrong to go for independence when the financial climate is so strained, but then if we were doing really well financially what would be the point of leaving a union which was successful?

[jaggybunnet]

Isn't there a kind of circularity to the "wrong time" argument?: It's wrong to go for independence when the financial climate is so strained, but then if we were doing really well financially what would be the point of leaving a union which was successful?

 

glad you have got it at last

[Norgethistle]

Isn't there a kind of circularity to the "wrong time" argument?: It's wrong to go for independence when the financial climate is so strained, but then if we were doing really well financially what would be the point of leaving a union which was successful?

Maybe it will be the right time if my mates wee comment last night is anything to go by, he reckons if it goes through it will create thousands of printing jobs, what with everything from money to passports to stamps to headed government paper etc all needing created, oh and buy shares in paper and printing companys they will make a fortune out of it

 

As i keep saying we need more information on how it will work, whats the pro's the con's and how the country will address the cons. Im sure both sides spin doctors will be drafting it now

[kni]

And don't you ever think to yourself that if Norway can be so successful, so could Scotland? Or are you one of those who thinks that Scots are somehow too inept to manage their own affairs?

 

Norway is successful because, as a member of EFTA, it is not burdened with a lot of EU laws and regulations. It was joining the Euro and EU regulations that stuffed the Irish.

 

Salmond wants Devo Max, not real independence from the Bank of England's monetary policies or the EU. The SNP, bizarrely, does not think that Scotland can or should run its affairs.

Edited January 15, 2012 by kni

[kni]

Today's Telegraph poll on independence - http://www.telegraph...dependence.html The English want to get rid of Scotland asap.

 

"The poll shows that while a substantial proportion of Scots (40 per cent) back independence, 43 per cent want to remain inside the United Kingdom. However, among English voters - who would not get a vote in any referendum - there is a clear lead for those who support independence for Scotland (43 per cent) over those who want the Union to be preserved (32 per cent)...

 

"Today's poll provides a series of setbacks for Mr Salmond, who favours a "three question" referendum in which Scots are offered the choice of full independence, the status quo, or a "devolution max" option in which all powers other than foreign policy and defence are handed to the parliament in Edinburgh. Offered this precise choice by ICM, more Scots go for the status quo (37 per cent) than the other two options, both of which win 26 per cent support. Mr Salmond's choice of a referendum in 2014 is also less popular (41 per cent) among Scots than a vote "as soon as possible (43 per cent). More than half English voters (52 per cent) also want a quick referendum."

Edited January 15, 2012 by kni

[hamiltonjag]

No jobs to steal, if it wasn't for the expats norway would fail as there is more jobs than Norwegians, there is 10000 Brits in stavanger alone at any one time

Didn't know that.

[Jaggernaut]

Maybe it will be the right time if my mates wee comment last night is anything to go by, he reckons if it goes through it will create thousands of printing jobs, what with everything from money to passports to stamps to headed government paper etc all needing created, oh and buy shares in paper and printing companys they will make a fortune out of it

 

As i keep saying we need more information on how it will work, whats the pro's the con's and how the country will address the cons. Im sure both sides spin doctors will be drafting it now

 

Don't worry; they're pretty much on the way to extinction in Scotland anyway.

[Jaggernaut]

Norway is successful because, as a member of EFTA, it is not burdened with a lot of EU laws and regulations. It was joining the Euro and EU regulations that stuffed the Irish.

 

Salmond wants Devo Max, not real independence from the Bank of England's monetary policies or the EU. The SNP, bizarrely, does not think that Scotland can or should run its affairs.

[Jaggernaut]

Norway is successful because, as a member of EFTA, it is not burdened with a lot of EU laws and regulations. It was joining the Euro and EU regulations that stuffed the Irish.

 

Salmond wants Devo Max, not real independence from the Bank of England's monetary policies or the EU. The SNP, bizarrely, does not think that Scotland can or should run its affairs.

 

What a nonsensical statement.

[twinny]

Today's Telegraph poll on independence - http://www.telegraph...dependence.html The English want to get rid of Scotland asap.

 

"The poll shows that while a substantial proportion of Scots (40 per cent) back independence, 43 per cent want to remain inside the United Kingdom. However, among English voters - who would not get a vote in any referendum - there is a clear lead for those who support independence for Scotland (43 per cent) over those who want the Union to be preserved (32 per cent)...

 

"Today's poll provides a series of setbacks for Mr Salmond, who favours a "three question" referendum in which Scots are offered the choice of full independence, the status quo, or a "devolution max" option in which all powers other than foreign policy and defence are handed to the parliament in Edinburgh. Offered this precise choice by ICM, more Scots go for the status quo (37 per cent) than the other two options, both of which win 26 per cent support. Mr Salmond's choice of a referendum in 2014 is also less popular (41 per cent) among Scots than a vote "as soon as possible (43 per cent). More than half English voters (52 per cent) also want a quick referendum."

 

The national media seem unable to understand how a two-question referendum would work. A couple of weeks ago I saw the BBC reporting that the referendum could potentially have three options: yes, no or devolution max, and it seems the Independent doesn't know any better. The results of the final question Preferred option in a three-question Scottish referendum are completely pointless; those who want independence probably support devo-max if enough support isn't generated for full independence. This means that the 37% supporting the status quo in Scotland would be outnumbered by the 26+26% preferring the other two options.

 

I find it funny that the English voters polled approve of independence but also think we'd be worse off, clearly buying the dependency on hand-outs line.

 

The question isn't necessarily about the 40% supporting independence or the 43% against, it's about the other 17% who are sitting on the fence and convincing them one way or the other. I read an interesting thing on the Guardian website this morning suggesting that an 'SNP loss' in a rushed Westminster led referendum would not mark the end for the SNP, and could increase the SNP votes cast in westminster elections (which Cameron may prefer as these votes would be lost from Labour in Scotland).

[GrantB]

Thats why our hospitals are full of foreign doctors & nurses, our building industry is full of polish, as are our buses and food picking/packing/ If we are so resourceful why arent we taking these jobs, because for alot they cant be bothered to either work or go out and get an education or trade.

 

As for the oil be aware if salmond does what he had promised with the extra oil tax, norwegian oil companys (statoil etc) have said they would close all operations in scotland and re pipe all the oil/gas currently going to scotland to norway.

 

As i said previously in this thread no one has came out and said how this will really work apart from the "If your Scottish you have to vote for it" Scotland gets £10bn more in benefits a year than what it brings in, yes i know the UK as a whole borrows billions but as a smaller player where we going to get the short fall from as we have zero credit rating, maybe no currency and maybe no EU membership (Not a bad thing in my mind), so all we can do is raise taxes and drop benefits the hole has to be plugged. He has been in the newspapers over here saying how he is going to model "his" new scotland on the norway model, so enjoy 36% or 50% tax on your wages, £8 a pint to get the tax to the revenue, £1.50 a liter of fuel. Yes we get paid more, but with a country that has 1% unemployment and so many companys state run Norway can afford to, plus it has Zero debt to service, uses none of its own gas (fully for sale) as it uses hydro. Until Salmond can prove how we will balance the books, how our defence will be, our currency, membership to EU etc etc etc its a NO for me, otherwise its a leap of faith with no substance

 

Every country in Europe has foreign migrant workers. You could make the same point about England who have far more than we do.

As for extra oil tax, that's not in any SNP policy document I've read.

 

Norway is successful because, as a member of EFTA, it is not burdened with a lot of EU laws and regulations. It was joining the Euro and EU regulations that stuffed the Irish.

 

Salmond wants Devo Max, not real independence from the Bank of England's monetary policies or the EU. The SNP, bizarrely, does not think that Scotland can or should run its affairs.

 

Sorry but as an SNP member, I find your last point outrageous.

[John Blutarsky]

Channel 4 News Factcheck blog on business/investment and independence. Very interesting!

[twinny]

Channel 4 News Factcheck blog on business/investment and independence. Very interesting!

 

Very good article and also one linked to in the comments section by the author. I wonder how these jobs created figures compare with job losses though.

[kni]

Sorry but as an SNP member, I find your last point outrageous.

 

It would only be outrageous if the SNP advocated that Scotland should leave the EU. Your party wants Scotland to be in the EU and to join the Euro. According to the European Parliament own figures, the EU imposes over 80% of the laws in Member States. The SNP is therefore advocating separation from the rest of the UK, not real independence. Devo Max is not even real separation.

Edited January 17, 2012 by kni

[GrantB]

It would only be outrageous if the SNP advocated that Scotland should leave the EU. Your party wants Scotland to be in the EU and to join the Euro. According to the European Parliament own figures, the EU imposes over 80% of the laws in Member States. The SNP is therefore advocating separation from the rest of the UK, not real independence. Devo Max is not even real separation.

 

The SNP advocates looking into the Euro, there is no commitment whatsoever to join it. As for the EU, of course we should be in it as a full member, not as a region as we are presently.

 

I take it you are a fan of UKIP?

[jaggybunnet]

The SNP advocates looking into the Euro, there is no commitment whatsoever to join it. As for the EU, of course we should be in it as a full member, not as a region as we are presently.

 

I take it you are a fan of UKIP?

 

seemingly if you join the EU now you must use the euro

 

"The EU treaty says new member states must join the euro - and that may not seem very attractive in the current crisis."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16553642

 

if so another reason not to

[GrantB]

seemingly if you join the EU now you must use the euro

 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-16553642

 

if so another reason not to

 

Same article also says that most conditions can be negociated.

 

Personally, assuming they get the Greece buisness sorted out, I would personally have no problem with the Euro. Would make my life a lot more straightforward not having to worry about changing money when we go to France.

[jaggybunnet]

Same article also says that most conditions can be negociated.

 

Personally, assuming they get the Greece buisness sorted out, I would personally have no problem with the Euro. Would make my life a lot more straightforward not having to worry about changing money when we go to France.

 

once you join you must take on the euro when you have "met the criteriea" wheather you want to or not, only uk and denmark vetoed this so dont have to join.

 

http://www.thebeginner.eu/europe/all-in-european-union/293-will-all-eu-member-states-eventually-use-the-euro.

 

with the euro you take on there tax and there rules and lose the abilitiy to use your currency to balance finances, so no thanks,

 

because its great for holidays is not a good reason to take it on

[kni]

The SNP advocates looking into the Euro, there is no commitment whatsoever to join it. As for the EU, of course we should be in it as a full member, not as a region as we are presently.

 

I take it you are a fan of UKIP?

 

The SNP's official policy in its last election manifesto was to join the Euro. I am one of the clear majority of voters who would vote to leave the EU in a referendum. The latest poll in December (MORI) showed that 52% would vote to leave the EU whilst only 41% would choose to stay in.

 

Only the majority party in the Commons can get Britain out. None of the main parties are worth voting for as they all support EU membership. The minor parties, e.g. UKIP and the Greens, are only a waste of time. My current policy is "don't vote, it only encourages the bast*rds". Any major party that changes its policies and offers a referendum on EU membership would get my vote.

[GrantB]

The SNP's official policy in its last election manifesto was to join the Euro. I am one of the clear majority of voters who would vote to leave the EU in a referendum. The latest poll in December (MORI) showed that 52% would vote to leave the EU whilst only 41% would choose to stay in.

 

Only the majority party in the Commons can get Britain out. None of the main parties are worth voting for as they all support EU membership. The minor parties, e.g. UKIP and the Greens, are only a waste of time. My current policy is "don't vote, it only encourages the bast*rds". Any major party that changes its policies and offers a referendum on EU membership would get my vote.

 

Personally speaking, I'm very pro-European. However, it has to be said that surely it would be easier for your political ideals to be met in an independent Scotland than with the status-quo. I don't see Labour or the Tories (no matter how many euro sceptic back bench rebellions they have) ever taking Britain out of the EU.

 

Remember in an independence referendum, you are not voting for or against the SNP. You are voting on the single issue of independence. What party governs an independent Scotland will be decided by free elections.