Thatcher

[The Devil's Point]

The whole idea of a state funeral for such a divisive and controversial a figure as Margaret Thatcher is as Meister Jag has pointed out an indication of how out of touch this government actually is.

 

I think the idea actually formed under the Labour Government and was originally announced by Gordon Brown.

 

I can see why people may find it offensive to have a large state funded funeral in the midst of austerity, although I would think all that is actually happening is that the long term contingency plans for her death are kicking in.

[Meister Jag]

Anybody read the list of tributes on the BBC last night, then come across George Galloway's "tribute". He's nuts, but you had to laugh. I won't quote him, but let's just say his comment was brief and alluded to a hot, fiery place.

 

Said I wouldn't post anything else on this one but two anti-Thatcher songs spring to mind (one even relates to Galloway's colourful comments): The Beat and "I see no joy, I see only sorrow, I see no chance of your bright new tomorrow"; and Costello's "When they finally put you in the ground they'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down."

[Meister Jag]

I think the idea actually formed under the Labour Government and was originally announced by Gordon Brown.

 

I can see why people may find it offensive to have a large state funded funeral in the midst of austerity, although I would think all that is actually happening is that the long term contingency plans for her death are kicking in.

 

So in Con Dem speak the money was already ring-fenced. Nice and as prudent a use of national wealth and assets as you'll see. how much will this cost exactly? Last one, I promise!!!!

[The Devil's Point]

So in Con Dem speak the money was already ring-fenced. Nice and as prudent a use of national wealth and assets as you'll see. how much will this cost exactly? Last one, I promise!!!!

 

You could well be right that the government should have seen this one coming and have given thought to toning it down in the circumstances. Can't say I particularly noticed anyone saying this before yesterday though.

 

I'd imagine the planning involved for something like this is pretty complex (just from the security point of view if nothing else) and is unlikely to be tampered with at this stage. Rightly or wrongly I can't see anything significant changing now.

 

I've noticed the cost being quoted at £8 million today although I can't remember where I read/heard this earlier (so could be wrong). Think I also read/heard that the Queen Mothers' funeral was £4 million. No idea how these costs are estimated although I'd of actually thought it would be far more than that if you take into account the cost of all the policing and so on.

[gianlucatoni]

You could well be right that the government should have seen this one coming and have given thought to toning it down in the circumstances. Can't say I particularly noticed anyone saying this before yesterday though.

 

I'd imagine the planning involved for something like this is pretty complex (just from the security point of view if nothing else) and is unlikely to be tampered with at this stage. Rightly or wrongly I can't see anything significant changing now.

 

I've noticed the cost being quoted at £8 million today although I can't remember where I read/heard this earlier (so could be wrong). Think I also read/heard that the Queen Mothers' funeral was £4 million. No idea how these costs are estimated although I'd of actually thought it would be far more than that if you take into account the cost of all the policing and so on.

 

If they want to stick on a big funeral they should punt her belgravia house - that should just about pay for it - they'll also save money on a headstone as they had better do a savile and leave it unmarked

[andyconnor]

as much as i hated her and her policies i can't bring myself to "celebrate" the death of an old women. i can understand why many would though.

[Blackpool Jags]

As Meister Jag correctly says, there should be no state funeral; it should simply be a private, family affair. To accord it a state funeral, with all that that entails, is the state symbolically putting on a show for the world to see and asserting boldly "she was one of us". That itself is grossly distasteful since it was a friend of fascists and other assorted anti-working class nutters.

 

I make no apology for reiterating the fact that It was responsible for the concerted decimation of working class communities the breadth and depth of Britain; it had no interest whatsoever in the prosperity of ordinary working class people - it simply abhorred, and militated prominently against, their right to elect from within their numbers representatives capable of furthering their interests. The very concept of Trade Unions was anathema to it; although, paradoxically, it stood foursquare behind the right of international capitalists to organise the movement of (electronic) money around the globe, just as it stood for the right of billious fascists to tyrannise their people wherever they emerged, subject to its personal approval.

 

One particularly nasty dictator - Augusto Pinochet - was loved and supported by it, despite the atrocities and anti-democratic liberties carried out by this fiend. They say "show me who your friends a re and I'll show you what you are": its admiration for the fiend, Pinochet, graphically illustrated its aspirations as to what sort of state it would ideally want Britain to be. Only our democratic legacy from earlier generations, and our fiercely protective attitude towards that made it impossible for it to ever aspire to such contemptible heights.

 

The death of a frail, elderly old woman per se is of course nothing to crow about, but the demise of this particularly pernicious old crone, for me, marks the passage of a set of ideas and 'values' which, when put into practice by it, was the equivalent lining up the population in two columns - along class lines - and carrying out a frenzied machete attack on the left hand column: the working class.

 

As for an apposite obituary, I would be inclined to proffer the brief, but to the point, words - Rot In Hell.

[The Devil's Point]

 

I make no apology for reiterating the fact that It was responsible for the concerted decimation of working class communities the breadth and depth of Britain; it had no interest whatsoever in the prosperity of ordinary working class people - it simply abhorred, and militated prominently against, their right to elect from within their numbers representatives capable of furthering their interests. The very concept of Trade Unions was anathema to it; although, paradoxically, it stood foursquare behind the right of international capitalists to organise the movement of (electronic) money around the globe, just as it stood for the right of billious fascists to tyrannise their people wherever they emerged, subject to its personal approval.

 

Would it not be fair to acknowledge that "it" won three general elections?

 

I tend to agree that the effective removal of trade union power has proved a bad thing in the long run (just look at the low pay and poor conditions faced by so many people today). However, I think its unreasonable to try and defend what went on with the unions in the seventies, and perhaps it might also be acknowledged that none of the major reforms were reversed during the later thirteen years of Labour Government.

 

I didn't like what Thatcher stood for either and particularly not the promotion of what I think was basically selfish individualism and greed. She allowed mass unemployment to become normalised and began the nonsense of manipulating the unemployment figures by hiding people on incapacity benefit etc. However, at least with hindsight, I think denying any of her reforms proved any good is as mistaken as some of the sentimental nonsense I have been listening to from right wingers on the news all day (and on the news all day yesterday, and on the news to come for the next week as well).

 

It it wasn't for the league run in I would be tempted to leave the country until next Thursday.

[DPO]

Why don't they put the Bing to good use and bury her there?

[redmike]

Why don't they put the Bing to good use and bury her there?

Probably cos we couldn't afford the dance floor.

[GrantB]

My champagne last night tasted damn good!

[Charlie Endell]

I used to view her as the political version of punk - a necessary evil.

 

I'm totally unaffected by her death and wouldn't feel comfortable 'celebrating' anyone's death - anyway, I'm waiting on that old crone Cilla Black.

[Dizzytheegg]

Would it not be fair to acknowledge that "it" won three general elections?

 

I don't think that's worthy of acknowledgement for 2 reasons:

 

1 - Nearly (if not all) UK elections are won with the winning party claiming less than 50% of the vote

2 - Winning successive elections is often a sign of a poor opposition as opposed to a fantastic government

 

The larger the funeral, the larger that chance of counter demonstrations. It should be a wholly private affair so that her family can mourn in peace.

[The Devil's Point]

Would it not be fair to acknowledge that "it" won three general elections?

 

I don't think that's worthy of acknowledgement for 2 reasons:

 

1 - Nearly (if not all) UK elections are won with the winning party claiming less than 50% of the vote

2 - Winning successive elections is often a sign of a poor opposition as opposed to a fantastic government

 

The larger the funeral, the larger that chance of counter demonstrations. It should be a wholly private affair so that her family can mourn in peace.

 

The point about getting 50% is perfectly true although, as you say yourself, no winning party ever gets this. Just had a quick look on Wiki and the Labour Landslide in 1997, for example, was based on only 43% of the vote, and Blair stayed in power in 2005 with only 35%. I suppose that is just the way the election system works and Thatcher did win her mandates under those same rules (mostly with around 42%).

 

If she beat a poor government and then two poor oppositions then I suppose that was still what people wanted at the time.

 

I agree the bigger funeral is more likely to attract counter demonstrations. However, I'd say demonstrations are perfectly legitimate in a democracy (so long as non-violent etc)

[ian_mac]

BBC over the last 24 hours has been utterly unbearable. Cannot quite believe the totally biassed pro-Thatcher pish that is being spouted by a supposed neutral organisation funded by the British public.

 

I've defended the BBC after the whole Savile affair but I can't do the same here. Utterly disgraceful.

[Blackpool Jags]

 

 

Would it not be fair to acknowledge that "it" won three general elections?

 

I tend to agree that the effective removal of trade union power has proved a bad thing in the long run (just look at the low pay and poor conditions faced by so many people today). However, I think its unreasonable to try and defend what went on with the unions in the seventies, and perhaps it might also be acknowledged that none of the major reforms were reversed during the later thirteen years of Labour Government.

 

I didn't like what Thatcher stood for either and particularly not the promotion of what I think was basically selfish individualism and greed. She allowed mass unemployment to become normalised and began the nonsense of manipulating the unemployment figures by hiding people on incapacity benefit etc. However, at least with hindsight, I think denying any of her reforms proved any good is as mistaken as some of the sentimental nonsense I have been listening to from right wingers on the news all day (and on the news all day yesterday, and on the news to come for the next week as well).

 

It it wasn't for the league run in I would be tempted to leave the country until next Thursday.

 

As always, TDP, a fair and reasoned response. No problem with many of your points, some of which resonate across the board.

 

In my view, it saw elections as one way to obtain power; I've no doubt that in a 'crisis', it wouldn't have thought twice about mimicking her great friend, Pinochet's 'other' way of obtaining power.

 

It was a despot operating in a democracy and, due to a potent electoral combination of a divided opposition and a deeply Tory-friendly media, it never had to resort to seeking assistance from any number of the private paramilitaries run by Empire loyalist fruit cakes who were around at that time, and only too willing to present arms in a civil war if the establishment were to have given the nod.

 

Anyway, after a weekend of Thistle and lager, I was fully committed to having a quiet night in last night - until I received a text containing the good news. So much for the quiet night in! Grrrrrr, her fault again!

[mrD]

I've purposly avoided tv coverage on this cause i would imagine it would be painting this whole 'oh sure thatcher was a wee bit divisive - but she did the neccesary things that needed to happen to make britain great again' narrative.

 

She was very successful in wiping socialism off the range of choices in politics, every mainstream party plays to that 'consensus' - but i think we should be careful in personalising such changes - they probably would have happened regardless of who became prime minister in that period. she was just the figure head of a movement away from keynsian social democracy, to free market neoliberalism - the groundwork had been done within economics departments getting all austrian school on us; the rise of financial capital following the opec crisis of 73 with the corresponding borrowing to third world nations - paving the way for neoliberal reforms; institutional changes from the federal reserve in USA to changes in the role and remit of IMF and World Bank; not to mention events Chiles right wing dictatorship being the first place to do all the privatising of state resources to be rolled out elsewhere etc. So its all a bit bigger than Thatcher.

 

Whats depressing for me is that instead of offering a political programme to deal with the problems inherant to capitalism whether it be of a keynsian or neoliberal one, the best that the left can do is cheer on the death of an old woman and blame all these things on her like shes some bad pantomine character. Problem with going to the pantomine angle is that lefties end up just looking like sad little caracitures thus confirming the widespread perception (that has been around since thatcher right through to post new labour times) of the loony left.

 

Should also state, that this is not in reference to any of the posts on here, more just from seeing what took place in george square etc.

[The Devil's Point]

I've purposly avoided tv coverage on this cause i would imagine it would be painting this whole 'oh sure thatcher was a wee bit divisive - but she did the neccesary things that needed to happen to make britain great again' narrative.

 

She was very successful in wiping socialism off the range of choices in politics, every mainstream party plays to that 'consensus' - but i think we should be careful in personalising such changes - they probably would have happened regardless of who became prime minister in that period. she was just the figure head of a movement away from keynsian social democracy, to free market neoliberalism - the groundwork had been done within economics departments getting all austrian school on us; the rise of financial capital following the opec crisis of 73 with the corresponding borrowing to third world nations - paving the way for neoliberal reforms; institutional changes from the federal reserve in USA to changes in the role and remit of IMF and World Bank; not to mention events Chiles right wing dictatorship being the first place to do all the privatising of state resources to be rolled out elsewhere etc. So its all a bit bigger than Thatcher.

 

Whats depressing for me is that instead of offering a political programme to deal with the problems inherant to capitalism whether it be of a keynsian or neoliberal one, the best that the left can do is cheer on the death of an old woman and blame all these things on her like shes some bad pantomine character. Problem with going to the pantomine angle is that lefties end up just looking like sad little caracitures thus confirming the widespread perception (that has been around since thatcher right through to post new labour times) of the loony left.

 

Should also state, that this is not in reference to any of the posts on here, more just from seeing what took place in george square etc.

 

I think this is an excellent post, particularly with regard to the argument that all of the changes can't be attributed to Thatcher personally.

 

Blackpool Jags - thanks for your comments. It is also a good point about the importance of the media and I am reminded of the efforts New Labour went to in order to ensure the Murdoch papers, in particular, were won over to their cause.

 

I must admit it bothers me at present to see the behaviour of some of the right wing media (the extent to which benefit claimants are being demonised is particularly concerning for me personally), and also agree with Ian Mac that the BBC has failed to provide balanced coverage over the last two days.

 

I feel like we are being told what to think in preparation for the big day, and I suspect I'm not the only Liberal who will be watching closely how dissenting voices are dealt with. In my opinion, people may be underestimating just how fed up card carrying Lib Dems are gettting with the way the coalition are operating (particularly with regard to welfare reform and the secret courts stuff). The way this is all handled over the next week could have all sorts of rammifications, particularly if reasonable protest starts to be put down.

 

Anyway, like Meister Jag, I have said my piece for the time being!

[Collins Out!]

Saville and Thatcher were pals.

[mrD]

they both ****** minors

 

TDP most of my post was just rehashed david harveys brief history of neoliberalism there haha

Edited April 10, 2013 by mrD

[1 John Lambie]

Their site, their decision. Move on Jaggernaut. Everyone else has. It's starting to look like a childish huff.

 

Bit on the defensive side Willjag...

 

Don't see a problem in the issue surrounding Sige being raised on a regular basis by some posters, unless you & the forum owners would rather the issue/he was forgotten about & not mentioned on here again for whatever reason(s)?

[The Devil's Point]

 

TDP most of my post was just rehashed david harveys brief history of neoliberalism there haha

 

Oops, can't believe I never noticed!

[Collins Out!]

Free the Siege Siege One !

[Willjag]

Bit on the defensive side Willjag...

 

Don't see a problem in the issue surrounding Sige being raised on a regular basis by some posters, unless you & the forum owners would rather the issue/he was forgotten about & not mentioned on here again for whatever reason(s)?

Try reading between the lines 1JL. He's not getting back.

 

It's not my site. Just that I've experienced the crap that gets thrown at admin on previous forums and so I don't like to some of the trash that's getting thrown at them. They're providing a service for Jags fans throughout the World to come together and support their Club. For instance, the Nomads flag wouldn't have happened as quickly as it did without this site. It'd be a pity to lose it becuase admin got fed up with taking abuse because they've banned someone that posts views that they are totally against being posted on their site.

 

The guys running the site prefer to remain anonymous, although I'm sure a good few folk know who they are and the good work they do elsewhere for the Club. But because they are faceless, it doesn't mean they aren't hurt or offended by some of the mud slung their way.

 

So what was this thread about again?

[B.C.G. JAG]

but i think we should be careful in personalising such changes - they probably would have happened regardless of who became prime minister in that period.

 

Possibly, but a lot of accounts from her peers suggest otherwise. There doesnt appear to have to been quite the appetite for such a full scale assault on the unions and she appears to have been pretty much alone in her determination not to find compromises. Much as I dislike all Tories, I think we wouldnt have seen such extremes if say Heseltine had been leader.

 

But on the point of her funeral, she should only be afforded the same respect she showed the working people of this country and those living under Pinochet or the tyranny of Apartheid, ie, none whatsoever. Im not condoning violence, but exactly how are the MET going to police the whole length of the ceremonial route and be able to extinguish any trouble that flares up elsewhere? Its asking for trouble.